The Pre-Tribulation Rapture: The Blessed Hope of the Saints

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BenjaminN

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Oct 7, 2020
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So you are bringing Judaistic ideas into the New Testament where they are not needed. I refer to the Jews fear and reverence that they believe surrounds the "name" of God. What does the Talmud have to do with the Koine Greek New Testament? Next you will be suggesting that all men need to be circumcised.

And you still have not told me why you think "Yeshua" needs to be placed at the end of Christ?
It seems like you have something against Hebrew, and would like to exclude Jews from Christianity? That is not the message of the New Covenant.

And by the way, a Christian that is not circumcised, do not belong to God. (Before you catch a fit, it is circumcision of the heart, in the same manner as God's law is written on our hearts under the New Covenant.)
 

BenjaminN

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Oct 7, 2020
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Save – Jesus Greek sōzō – Strongs G4982

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?page=1&strongs=G4982&t=NKJV#lexResults

Mat 1:21

“And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS, for He will save His people from their sins.”

Mat 8:25

Then His disciples came to Him and awoke Him, saying, “Lord, save us! We are perishing!”

Mat 9:21

For she said to herself, “If only I may touch His garment, I shall be made well.”

Mat 9:22

But Jesus turned around, and when He saw her He said, “Be of good cheer, daughter; your faith has made you well.” And the woman was made well from that hour.

Mat 10:22

“And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.

Mat 14:30

But when he saw that the wind was boisterous,[fn] he was afraid; and beginning to sink he cried out, saying, “Lord, save me!”

Mat 16:25

“For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.

Mat 18:11

“For the Son of Man has come to save that which was lost.[fn]

Mat 19:25

When His disciples heard it, they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?”

Mat 24:13

“But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

Mat 24:22

“And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

Mat 27:40

and saying, “You who destroy the temple and build it in three days, save Yourself! If You are the Son of God, come down from the cross.”

Mat 27:42

“He saved others; Himself He cannot save. If He is the King of Israel,[fn] let Him now come down from the cross, and we will believe Him.[fn]

Mat 27:49

The rest said, “Let Him alone; let us see if Elijah will come to save Him.”

Mar 3:4

Then He said to them, “Is it lawful on the Sabbath to do good or to do evil, to save life or to kill?” But they kept silent.

Mar 5:23

and begged Him earnestly, saying, “My little daughter lies at the point of death. Come and lay Your hands on her, that she may be healed, and she will live.”

Mar 5:28

For she said, “If only I may touch His clothes, I shall be made well.”

Mar 5:34

And He said to her, “Daughter, your faith has made you well. Go in peace, and be healed of your affliction.”

Mar 6:56

Wherever He entered, into villages, cities, or the country, they laid the sick in the marketplaces, and begged Him that they might just touch the hem of His garment. And as many as touched Him were made well.

Mar 8:35

“For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake and the gospel’s will save it.
 

BenjaminN

Well-known member
Oct 7, 2020
1,504
307
83
Save – Jesus Greek sōzō – Strongs G4982


https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?page=1&strongs=G4982&t=NKJV#lexResults
Mar 10:26
And they were greatly astonished, saying among themselves, “Who then can be saved?”

Mar 10:52

Then Jesus said to him, “Go your way; your faith has made you well.” And immediately he received his sight and followed Jesus on the road.

Mar 13:13

“And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

Mar 13:20

“And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake, whom He chose, He shortened the days.

Mar 15:30

“save Yourself, and come down from the cross!”

Mar 15:31

Likewise the chief priests also, mocking among themselves with the scribes, said, “He saved others; Himself He cannot save.

Mar 16:16

“He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

Luk 6:9

Then Jesus said to them, “I will ask you one thing: Is it lawful on the Sabbath to do good or to do evil, to save life or to destroy?”[fn]

Luk 7:50

Then He said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you. Go in peace.”

Luk 8:12

“Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

Luk 8:36

They also who had seen it told them by what means he who had been demon-possessed was healed.

Luk 8:48

And He said to her, “Daughter, be of good cheer;[fn] your faith has made you well. Go in peace.”

Luk 8:50

But when Jesus heard it, He answered him, saying, “Do not be afraid; only believe, and she will be made well.”

Luk 9:24

“For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will save it.

Luk 9:56

“For the Son of Man did not come to destroy men’s lives but to save them.”[fn] And they went to another village.

Luk 13:23

Then one said to Him, “Lord, are there few who are saved?” And He said to them,

Luk 17:19

And He said to him, “Arise, go your way. Your faith has made you well.”

Luk 17:33

“Whoever seeks to save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it.

Luk 18:26

And those who heard it said, “Who then can be saved?”

Luk 18:42

Then Jesus said to him, “Receive your sight; your faith has made you well.”
 

BenjaminN

Well-known member
Oct 7, 2020
1,504
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Save – Jesus Greek sōzō – Strongs G4982, Yeshua Salvation Hebrew H3444

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?page=1&strongs=G4982&t=NKJV#lexResults

Luk 19:10

“for the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost.”

Luk 23:35

And the people stood looking on. But even the rulers with them sneered, saying, “He saved others; let Him save Himself if He is the Christ, the chosen of God.”

Luk 23:37

and saying, “If You are the King of the Jews, save Yourself.”

Luk 23:39

Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, “If You are the Christ,[fn] save Yourself and us.”

Jhn 3:17

“For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

Jhn 5:34

“Yet I do not receive testimony from man, but I say these things that you may be saved.

Jhn 10:9

“I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.

Jhn 11:12

Then His disciples said, “Lord, if he sleeps he will get well.”

Jhn 12:27

“Now My soul is troubled, and what shall I say? ‘Father, save Me from this hour’? But for this purpose I came to this hour.

Jhn 12:47

“And if anyone hears My words and does not believe,[fn] I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world.

Act 2:21

And it shall come to pass
That whoever calls on the name of the LORD
Shall be saved.’
[fn]

Act 2:40

And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation.”

Act 2:47

praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church[fn] daily those who were being saved.

Act 4:9

“If we this day are judged for a good deed done to a helpless man, by what means he has been made well,

Act 4:12

“Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

Act 11:14

‘who will tell you words by which you and all your household will be saved.’

Act 14:9

This man heard Paul speaking. Paul, observing him intently and seeing that he had faith to be healed,

Act 15:1

And certain men came down from Judea and taught the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.”

Act 15:11

“But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ[fn] we shall be saved in the same manner as they.”
 

BenjaminN

Well-known member
Oct 7, 2020
1,504
307
83
Save – Jesus Greek sōzō – Strongs G4982, Yeshua Salvation Hebrew H3444

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?page=1&strongs=G4982&t=NKJV#lexResults

Act 16:30
And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”

Act 16:31

So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

Act 27:20

Now when neither sun nor stars appeared for many days, and no small tempest beat on us, all hope that we would be saved was finally given up.

Act 27:31

Paul said to the centurion and the soldiers, “Unless these men stay in the ship, you cannot be saved.”

Rom 5:9

Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.

Rom 5:10

For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

Rom 8:24

For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees?

Rom 9:27

Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel:[fn]

“Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea,
The remnant will be saved.


Rom 10:9

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Rom 10:13

For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.”[fn]

Rom 11:14

if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them.

Rom 11:26

And so all Israel will be saved,[fn] as it is written:

“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;


1Co 1:18

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

1Co 1:21

For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

1Co 3:15

If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

1Co 5:5

deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.[fn]

1Co 7:16

For how do you know, O wife, whether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, O husband, whether you will save your wife?

1Co 9:22

to the weak I became as[fn] weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

1Co 10:33

just as I also please all men in all things, not seeking my own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved.
 

BenjaminN

Well-known member
Oct 7, 2020
1,504
307
83
Save – Jesus Greek sōzō – Strongs G4982, Yeshua Salvation Hebrew H3444


https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?page=1&strongs=G4982&t=NKJV#lexResults


1Co 15:2

by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

2Co 2:15

For we are to God the fragrance of Christ among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing.

Eph 2:5

even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

Eph 2:8

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

1Th 2:16

forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved, so as always to fill up the measure of their sins; but wrath has come upon them to the uttermost.

2Th 2:10

and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

1Ti 1:15

This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.

1Ti 2:4

who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

1Ti 2:15

Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control.

1Ti 4:16

Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.

2Ti 1:9

who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

2Ti 4:18

And the Lord will deliver me from every evil work and preserve me for His heavenly kingdom. To Him be glory forever and ever. Amen!

Tit 3:5

not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

Heb 5:7

who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able to save Him from death, and was heard because of His godly fear,

Heb 7:25

Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.

Jas 1:21

Therefore lay aside all filthiness and overflow of wickedness, and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls.

Jas 2:14

What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

Jas 4:12

There is one Lawgiver,[fn] who is able to save and to destroy. Who[fn] are you to judge another?[fn]

Jas 5:15

And the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.

Jas 5:20

let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul[fn] from death and cover a multitude of sins.

1Pe 3:21

There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

1Pe 4:18

Now
“If the righteous one is scarcely saved,
Where will the ungodly and the sinner appear?”
[fn]

Jde 1:5

But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.

Jde 1:23

but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire,[fn] hating even the garment defiled by the flesh.

Rev 21:24

And the nations of those who are saved[fn] shall walk in its light, and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it.[fn]
 
Jul 23, 2018
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The false teaching of Christian Zionism's pretribulationism is the invention of the Christian Zionist John Nelson Darby in 1833. No pretribulationism was taught prior to its 1830's invention, nor can it be found in any literature prior to its creation in the 1830's.

You can even see the effects this false teaching had on the usage of the word tribulation (from tribulum, God's threshing-sledge separating the chaff from the corn in the great tribulation) in literature, deceiving and lulling people to sleep, if it were possible even God's elect:

Matthew 13 (New King James Version)
20But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.

Matthew 24 (New King James Version)
24For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25See, I have told you beforehand.

View attachment 223681

View attachment 223682
Got any verses?

The ones you post are totally off topic.

I have heard all the post trib rapture extra biblical rabbit trails.
 
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
2,775
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Save – Jesus Greek sōzō – Strongs G4982, Yeshua Salvation Hebrew H3444


https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?page=1&strongs=G4982&t=NKJV#lexResults


1Co 15:2

by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

2Co 2:15

For we are to God the fragrance of Christ among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing.

Eph 2:5

even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

Eph 2:8

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

1Th 2:16

forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved, so as always to fill up the measure of their sins; but wrath has come upon them to the uttermost.

2Th 2:10

and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

1Ti 1:15

This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.

1Ti 2:4

who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

1Ti 2:15

Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control.

1Ti 4:16

Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.

2Ti 1:9

who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

2Ti 4:18

And the Lord will deliver me from every evil work and preserve me for His heavenly kingdom. To Him be glory forever and ever. Amen!

Tit 3:5

not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

Heb 5:7

who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able to save Him from death, and was heard because of His godly fear,

Heb 7:25

Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.

Jas 1:21

Therefore lay aside all filthiness and overflow of wickedness, and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls.

Jas 2:14

What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

Jas 4:12

There is one Lawgiver,[fn] who is able to save and to destroy. Who[fn] are you to judge another?[fn]

Jas 5:15

And the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.

Jas 5:20

let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul[fn] from death and cover a multitude of sins.

1Pe 3:21

There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

1Pe 4:18

Now
“If the righteous one is scarcely saved,
Where will the ungodly and the sinner appear?”
[fn]

Jde 1:5

But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.

Jde 1:23

but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire,[fn] hating even the garment defiled by the flesh.

Rev 21:24

And the nations of those who are saved[fn] shall walk in its light, and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it.[fn]
Great verses
Thanks.
Glad to see you studying.
 
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
2,775
113
Save – Jesus Greek sōzō – Strongs G4982, Yeshua Salvation Hebrew H3444

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?page=1&strongs=G4982&t=NKJV#lexResults

Act 16:30
And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”

Act 16:31

So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

Act 27:20

Now when neither sun nor stars appeared for many days, and no small tempest beat on us, all hope that we would be saved was finally given up.

Act 27:31

Paul said to the centurion and the soldiers, “Unless these men stay in the ship, you cannot be saved.”

Rom 5:9

Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.

Rom 5:10

For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

Rom 8:24

For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees?

Rom 9:27

Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel:[fn]

“Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea,
The remnant will be saved.


Rom 10:9

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Rom 10:13

For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.”[fn]

Rom 11:14

if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them.

Rom 11:26

And so all Israel will be saved,[fn] as it is written:

“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;


1Co 1:18

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

1Co 1:21

For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

1Co 3:15

If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

1Co 5:5

deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.[fn]

1Co 7:16

For how do you know, O wife, whether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, O husband, whether you will save your wife?

1Co 9:22

to the weak I became as[fn] weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

1Co 10:33

just as I also please all men in all things, not seeking my own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved.
Amen
More great verses!
Thanks!
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
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^ Isn't Charles Cooper (the guy in the video with the gray/white hair) the one who (in this or similar video recently) was the one saying that "the problem" with what ppl are presenting about 2Th2 would be (in his mind) to have Paul saying the nonsensical phrase (that the video-makers apparently are misunderstanding about what is actually being conveyed by those pointing out v.3):

"the RAPTURE cannot happen until the RAPTURE takes place first"

[a nonsensical sentence... that they incorrectly think we're suggesting Paul said. NO!]


... which is absolutely NOT what we are suggesting Paul is saying (and is to TOTALLY *MISS* the point of what we're pointing out ;) ),


...but INSTEAD:

"3 [the earthly time-period: DOTL with its JUDGMENTs unfolding (v.2's Subject), that day] will not be present if not shall have come THE Departure [i.e. the Rapture (v.1's Subject)] *FIRST* and [distinctly] the man of sin be revealed..."






V.2 is Paul saying (basically), "don't let anyone convince you that 'the DOTL' IS PRESENT [PERFECT indicative]"
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
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^ And... if I recall rightly... they go on to mis-quote Joel 2:31 to have it saying something to the effect of "before the day of the Lord [as in, before the DOTL in its ENTIRETY]," but that is NOT what the text is speaking about (though many people mis-quote and mis-apply this passage). What that text is stating is: "before the GREAT..." (i.e. "before the GREAT" ASPECT *OF* it, which "GREAT" aspect speaks of the SECOND HALF of the trib years ONLY [per Matt24:15/Rev7:14], so this verse [re: "moon into blood"] is speaking of "BEFORE THE SECOND HALF, that is, IN THE FIRST HALF" that this event will take place, which is exactly "where" the "6th SEAL [moon became as blood] event" occurs in the timeline). I cannot recall if they also incorrectly CONFLATE this with the entirely distinct "moon shall not give her light" (END of trib) event, as many tend to do. It wouldn't surprise me...
 
Jul 23, 2018
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....and what is that guys position???? Postrib rapture????(during the second coming on white horses?)
Which blatantly and recklessly defies the bible
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
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^ Isn't Charles Cooper (the guy in the video with the gray/white hair) the one who (in this or similar video recently) was the one saying that "the problem" with what ppl are presenting about 2Th2 would be (in his mind) to have Paul saying the nonsensical phrase (that the video-makers apparently are misunderstanding about what is actually being conveyed by those pointing out v.3):

"the RAPTURE cannot happen until the RAPTURE takes place first"

[a nonsensical sentence... that they incorrectly think we're suggesting Paul said. NO!]


... which is absolutely NOT what we are suggesting Paul is saying (and is to TOTALLY *MISS* the point of what we're pointing out ;) ),


...but INSTEAD:

"3 [the earthly time-period: DOTL with its JUDGMENTs unfolding (v.2's Subject), that day] will not be present if not shall have come THE Departure [i.e. the Rapture (v.1's Subject)] *FIRST* and [distinctly] the man of sin be revealed..."

V.2 is Paul saying (basically), "don't let anyone convince you that 'the DOTL' IS PRESENT [PERFECT indicative]"
Totally agree, DivineWatermark!

The error that people make regarding 2 Thess.2, is that they don't recognize Paul's switch between the appearing of our Lord and our being gathered to Him vs. The Day of the Lord.

First of all, and as I am sure that you already know, these are two closely linked events and yet separate:

The appearing of Lord and our being gathered to Him = The gathering of the church. The blessed hope (rapture)

The Day of the Lord = The time period of God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments

The reason that Paul starts off with "Concerning the appearing of our Lord and our being gathered to Him, was because there were people in Thessalonica teaching that the DOTL had already come. Since the Thessalonians knew Paul's teachings that the gathering of the church would take place first which would be followed by the DOTL, they wrote to Paul basically saying, if the DOTL has already come, how come we're still here? Why haven't we been caught up to be with the Lord? If we could see the letter from the Thessalonians that prompted Paul to write this, I'm sure that everything would be much clearer. So, the Thessalonians letter and Paul's response could have gone something like this:

Dear paul,

We have some here who are teaching that the Day of the Lord has already come. Yet you taught us that prior to that, the Lord would appear and the dead would rise first and then those who are still alive would be caught up to meet the Lord in the air. If the Day of the Lord has already come, then why haven't we been caught up to meet the Lord?

Dear Thessalonians,

Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter seeming to be from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has already come. Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed. He will oppose and exalt himself above every so-called god or object of worship. So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.

The gathering of the church takes place first, which ushers in the Day of the Lord, the time of God's wrath.
 

echoChrist

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Totally agree, DivineWatermark!

The error that people make regarding 2 Thess.2, is that they don't recognize Paul's switch between the appearing of our Lord and our being gathered to Him vs. The Day of the Lord.

First of all, and as I am sure that you already know, these are two closely linked events and yet separate:

The appearing of Lord and our being gathered to Him = The gathering of the church. The blessed hope (rapture)

The Day of the Lord = The time period of God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments

The reason that Paul starts off with "Concerning the appearing of our Lord and our being gathered to Him, was because there were people in Thessalonica teaching that the DOTL had already come. Since the Thessalonians knew Paul's teachings that the gathering of the church would take place first which would be followed by the DOTL, they wrote to Paul basically saying, if the DOTL has already come, how come we're still here? Why haven't we been caught up to be with the Lord? If we could see the letter from the Thessalonians that prompted Paul to write this, I'm sure that everything would be much clearer. So, the Thessalonians letter and Paul's response could have gone something like this:

Dear paul,

We have some here who are teaching that the Day of the Lord has already come. Yet you taught us that prior to that, the Lord would appear and the dead would rise first and then those who are still alive would be caught up to meet the Lord in the air. If the Day of the Lord has already come, then why haven't we been caught up to meet the Lord?

Dear Thessalonians,

Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter seeming to be from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has already come. Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed. He will oppose and exalt himself above every so-called god or object of worship. So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.

The gathering of the church takes place first, which ushers in the Day of the Lord, the time of God's wrath.
? So is theif in the night verse referring to rapture.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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? So is theif in the night verse referring to rapture.
The verse/s speaking of "[ARRIVES like a] thief IN THE NIGHT" speaks to [the manner of] the ARRIVAL of the earthly TIME-PERIOD (involving JUDGMENTs) unfolding upon the earth (FOLLOWING "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]"). That TIME-PERIOD involves [also] "the man of sin" and ALL he will DO over the course of those 7-yrs leading UP TO Christ's Second Coming to the earth Rev19, including his [the man of sin's] ARRIVAL ("whose COMING [advent/arrival/presence/parousia] is after the working of Satan..." 2Th2:9a).
[see also both chpts of Isa34-35, not merely the one verse extracted from its context 34:4]





[distinct from what Jesus said about HIMSELF and HIS OWN *PERSONAL* ARRIVAL or RETURN to the earth, which He said, "Behold, *I* come AS A THIEF. [period]" which is at the Armageddon time-slot Rev16:14-16/Rev19]


Neither refer to "our Rapture".




Hope that helps. =)
 

Ahwatukee

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? So is theif in the night verse referring to rapture.
Good day, echoChrist!

I's say that it is referring to both the gathering of the church and the Day of the Lord which follows.

The gathering of the church (rapture) and the Day of the Lord (the period of God's wrath), are closely linked in that, one gives way to the other. The reference to the Lord coming like a thief in the night, is referring to when the Lord comes to gather His church, which is followed by the Day of the Lord, the time of God's wrath. When God told Noah to build the Ark because He was going to bring the flood, Noah preached this to the people, but they did not believe the word of God. In the same way, we have been telling the lost that the church is going to be gathered followed by God's wrath, but many do not believe it. They will continue to eat and drink, marrying and giving in marriage, planting and building, right up until the church is gathered and then they will be trapped in the Day of the Lord.

Once the church has been gathered, all of those who will have not believed, that day will close on them like a trap and they will be exposed to the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, as well as the plagues that the two witnesses bring.
 

Ahwatukee

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The verse/s speaking of "[ARRIVES like a] thief IN THE NIGHT" speaks to [the manner of] the ARRIVAL of the earthly TIME-PERIOD (involving JUDGMENTs) unfolding upon the earth (FOLLOWING "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]"). That TIME-PERIOD involves [also] "the man of sin" and ALL he will DO over the course of those 7-yrs leading UP TO Christ's Second Coming to the earth Rev19, including his [the man of sin's] ARRIVAL ("whose COMING [advent/arrival/presence/parousia] is after the working of Satan..." 2Th2:9a).
[see also both chpts of Isa34-35, not merely the one verse extracted from its context 34:4]





[distinct from what Jesus said about HIMSELF and HIS OWN *PERSONAL* ARRIVAL or RETURN to the earth, which He said, "Behold, *I* come AS A THIEF. [period]" which is at the Armageddon time-slot Rev16:14-16/Rev19]


Neither refer to "our Rapture".




Hope that helps. =)
Yes, but it is the gathering of the church which initiates the Day of the Lord, the time of God's wrath. The Lord coming like a thief, is when He gathers His church, which is followed by the wrath of God aka the Day of the Lord and which will be carried out by the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. This is also why believers are told to watch and be ready so that the thief won't take us by surprise.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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^ Well, @Ahwatukee , we at least agree on the fact that there is NO GAP (no "gap of time") between "our Rapture" and the "ARRIVAL of the [earthly-] Day of the Lord TIME-PERIOD of JUDGMENTs unfolding upon the earth [i.e. the TRIB yrs]"... as I believe:

--"in the twinkling of an eye" (pertaining to "our Rapture" event) = "the precise moment when one 'day' turns into the next, when the sun is eight-degrees below the horizon, at sundown"

--[and that IMMEDIATELY FOLLOWING that/our Rapture event^ ] "the DOTL" earthly-TIME-PERIOD "ARRIVES like a thief IN THE NIGHT" (the "IN THE NIGHT/DARK/DARKNESS" time period unfolding upon the earth, involving JUDGMENTS and "the man of sin" IN HIS TIME [see Dan7:7, Gen46:2, Amos 5:18,20, etc]); "the DOTL" also ARRIVES like the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3 and Matt24:4/Mk13:5 G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE' ['a certain one' bringing deception]" which Jesus had also referred to; and which "BoBPs" He spoke of are EQUIVALENT to the "SEALS" of Rev6 at the START of the 7-yr Trib); "the DOTL earthly-TIME-PERIOD" *ARRIVES* at the SAME MOMENT that "the man of sin" also *ARRIVES* ("whose COMING [advent/arrival/presence/parousia] is after the working of Satan..." 2Th2:9a and other verses in this passage [the 3x "REVEALED" is mentioned with regard to him])