I 100% agree with you those in true faith will not suffer God's wrath but isn't Day of the Lord Christ's second coming after vials of wrath are poured out.
The Pre-Tribulation Rapture: The Blessed Hope of the Saints
- Thread starter Nehemiah6
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Hello Yahsua!
If I might chime in here.
Many people erroneously attempt to make the word 'apostasia' to mean 'departure' which can be a fair translation. However, the departure that the is represented by 'apostasia' must retain its meaning. Some of the other translations are rebellion, revolt, falling away and defection. Therefore, if one wants to use the word 'departure' the meaning must be to depart from ones stand in faith and cannot be translated as to depart up into the air. If the Spirit wanted to convey departure as being gathered up in the air, He would have used the word 'harpazo- snatched up, caught up, force suddenly exercised.' This is the same word used when Paul was 'caught up' to the third heaven, when the Male Child is 'caught up' to God's throne and when Philip was 'snatched away' from the Eunuch and appeared in another city. Talk about beam me up Scotty! Anyway, the word 'apostasia' cannot be translated as 'departure' and then changed to mean sailing off into the wild blue yonder.
The only other place the word 'apostasia' is used is in Acts 21:21 which refers to Paul's teaching about 'turning away' from the teachings of Moses regarding the Law. The word 'departure' can also be replaced here, but it must retain the meaning of departing from the teaching on ones stand in departing from the teachings of the law.
The problem that many have in understanding 2 Thess.2:1-3, is that they do not take into consideration Paul's change from "The appearing of Lord and our being gathered to Him' vs. 'The Day of the Lord' mentioned in verse 3 and again as 'that day.'
Paul had taught the Thessalonians that the gathering would take place first, which would then usher in the Day of the Lord, the time of God's wrath. Consequently, there were false teachers in Thessalonica teaching that the Day of the Lord had already come. So the Thessalonians wrote to Paul basically saying "hey Paul, there are some people here teaching that the Day of the Lord has already begun, so why weren't we caught up to meet the Lord in the air, as you taught us.
Hello echoChrist!
The Day of the Lord, also called 'the hour of trial' is neither an hour nor a day in length, but is a seven year period of God's wrath leading up to Christ's return, which will begin after the church has been gathered and which will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. The Lord will return to the earth to end the age shortly after the 7th bowl has been poured out, which completes God's wrath.
So the 'Day of the Lord' is the preceding time period of God's wrath, leading up to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age.
Pre tribulation theory is not the blessed hope of the saints.
It is speculative dogmatism & a lot of anger.
Pre trib rapture is the biggest fantasy of them all.
It is speculative dogmatism & a lot of anger.
In that case there is most certainly not a resurrection prior to the tribulation.
Pre trib rapture is the biggest fantasy of them all.
Are you saying that you think the "24 elders" are not located "UP IN Heaven" when they say "hast redeemed US to God BY THY BLOOD out of EVERY kindred and tongue and people and nation..." before Jesus commences to open the first seal?
"he apostasia / he apostasis" ["THE Departure"] referring BACK to what has ALREADY been mentioned in the text (not further down in the text)... "A STANDING away-from ['a standing away-from' a previous standing]"... but in this case, WITH the "definite article ['THE']"... so a PARTICULAR one (the one previously mentioned in the text), meaning [at its most basic meaning] "departure" [see also "stasis/stasin" as used in Heb9:8-9a]
Not what I'm saying.
100% of "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (ALL those saved "in the present age [singular]") will go in the Rapture (even the "Corinthians"
)...This leaves 100% of the remaining people on the earth (at the START of the 7 Trib years) being "unbelievers/unsaved persons"... including a good portion of [what we commonly call] "Christendom" (not 100% of "Christendom" is SAVED, see).
Once "our Rapture" takes place, ["poof! "], there will be many more ppl who will be coming to faith, as well as many ppl who will NOT but who will "believe the LIE/the FALSE/the PSEUDEI" INSTEAD (God will have sent THEM [at some point FOLLOWING "our Rapture"] "strong delusion THAT they should BELIEVE [it]")... and Paul is telling of this CONTRAST (of TWO DISTINCT "beliefs" ppl WILL come to, in the trib years, as he refers to this time-period at either end of his "bookended" CONTEXT [chpts 1 & 2], where the phrases "the DOTL [earthly time-period]" and "IN THAT DAY" speak of the SAME TIME-PERIOD [just as they do in ALL contexts where these two phrases are found in close proximity in the text, as they are here also]).
Now, try to imagine yourself (for illustration, for the purpose of trying to picture this [AS SUCH a person]) in the place of one of those unsaved persons finding themselves on an earth where "lots and lots of ppl" have just disappeared/vanished (even if you [/they] are not "cognizant" that you are now EXISTING IN / EXPERIENCING [what WE call] the Tribulation Period [7-yr]); and let's say, the neighbor to your right is "Jewish" [who happened to be UNSAVED], the neighbor to your left is one of those from "Christendom" [but who ALSO were not actually SAVED], and only ONE neighbor, way down the street who you really only knew in passing/vaguely is among those (all over the world) who "vanished/disappeared"... and you yourself [not "you" literally
] only have a VERY FUZZY awareness of what others have said "about the Bible," but in such a grossly-limited way that, if you ever even start to *wonder* if "God" had anything to do with "what just happened," you wouldn't be able to really piece it all together in a sharply-accurate way all of a sudden... so (since you are aware that the "disappearances" were WORLD-WIDE, not just your ONE neighbor down the street),...and since your whole neighborhood is out on the block talking about this strange thing that's happened recently... (and *IF* you have ANY inkling that "GOD" was at back of this "happening"), naturally you might be inclined to actually approach each of these two particular neighbors who "might have some idea what the BIBLE has to say" about such "happenings"... and so the convo begins [with these two "UNSAVED-but-at-least-acquainted-with-the-Bible" persons...]... Imagine such a scenario... and try to envision what they might each have to say about it, to you. The Jewish man never believed "Jesus" was the Messiah, and the "Christendom"-person never relied on Him for salvation (otherwise, they wouldn't still be here, following "our Rapture"), but they each have a "take" on the Bible and "what it says" (since this is the Subject you've brought up in their presence, for the purpose of ascertaining... something..., IF there's such a thing on it, in there...).
ENTER the fact that God has already told us that "HE SHALL SEND *them* [particular ones HE KNOWS the hearts of--but not to 100% of those on the earth following "our Rapture"
] strong delusion THAT they should believe THE LIE/the FALSE/the PSEUDEI," and let's just say (for ILLUSTRATION PURPOSES *ONLY*) that it is one of these neighbors [take your pick, it doesn't matter for this *illustration* (we'll have the OTHER one be the one who "comes to faith" a bit later on during these trib yrs--again, illustration )]... the one particular neighbor being to whom GOD SHALL SEND this "strong delusion," and thus they begin to educate you on [what they consider to be] "the facts of the matter" (concerning "what just happened" and how [in THEIR view] "God" was involved--after all, you DID *ask* them... and so they respond...)...... I'm going to close this post now, and just let you try to "picture" such a scenario, and "where that might go" (as far as WHAT "the LIE/the FALSE/the PSEUDEI" might consist of and entail...)
____________
[I gotta go hit the pillow! Night all! = ) ]
^ EDIT to add: ...just dropping of a link to a post that goes along with that ^ (at top of that ^ Post #486 ^ )...
[Post #199] https://christianchat.com/threads/i...eheaded-by-the-antichrist.195887/post-4451232
[scroll down a bit... to see the lexicon info, etc]
[keep in mind that the Thessalonians "KNOW PERFECTLY" that "the DOTL [time-period]" *ARRIVES* like... the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" of a woman in labor...]
[Post #199] https://christianchat.com/threads/i...eheaded-by-the-antichrist.195887/post-4451232
[scroll down a bit... to see the lexicon info, etc]
[keep in mind that the Thessalonians "KNOW PERFECTLY" that "the DOTL [time-period]" *ARRIVES* like... the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" of a woman in labor...]
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The only way postrib could possibly be plausable would be to remove rev 19 (the white horses)
Re read rev 14 and then 19.
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
Hello???
It is vividly,vividly clear that gathering is not the army on white horses.
Now acts 1
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
....and on and on. Postrib rapture is not even remotely possible.
All the rapture verses are COMPLETLY SEPARATE from the second coming on white horses.
You can not POSSIBLY shoehorn the two events into one.
Not possible
""100% of "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (ALL those saved "in the present age [singular]") will go in the Rapture (even the "Corinthians" )...""
Nope
Not biblical.
Jesus ;
"But pray that you may be counted WORTHY to escape the things about to come upon the world...."
The 5 wise virgins were worthy.
Those recieving crowns are worthy.
The "one taken" was worthy.
The churches commended in the 7 letters were worthy
"Because you have kept my word no will keep you out of the trial"
The one at the wedding thrown out was NOT WORTHY.
For you to assume otherwise is not biblical
)...""Nope
Not biblical.
Jesus ;
"But pray that you may be counted WORTHY to escape the things about to come upon the world...."
The 5 wise virgins were worthy.
Those recieving crowns are worthy.
The "one taken" was worthy.
The churches commended in the 7 letters were worthy
"Because you have kept my word no will keep you out of the trial"
The one at the wedding thrown out was NOT WORTHY.
For you to assume otherwise is not biblical
You can accuse both the Old & NT prophets of shoehorning if you want to. Suit yourself.
Jesus returns one more time according to prophecy.
The glorious return of the son, his righteous vengeance and his reign on the earth is the passion of the biblical record. Everything is focussed on his return & retold repeatedly. The 2nd coming is one event only. Never two. THere is not one single verse that seperated the return of Christ into 2 events. That is the work of men.
The pre trib theory is a self-centred story "how can I escape every hardship for a self-centred party in heaven"
The return of Jesus & the resurrection is centred on him & his glory. We go into his service we are not taken away for a pampering.
Since it is the Lord Jesus Christ who taught a Pre-Tribulation Rapture long before anyone else, how can it be a "theory" or a "self-centred story"? Only those who have no understanding of the reason for the Resurrection/Rapture would make such statements.
The culmination of salvation is the glorification of the saints BEFORE the Marriage of the Lamb. Therefore the Lord Himself comes personally FOR His saints, BEFORE He comes WITH His saints at the Second Coming of Christ to bring fiery judgment upon the earth: And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. (Jude 1:14,15)
"Ten thousands" should be interpreted as "millions". And the holy angels accompany the saints at this time. Thus they give the appearance of clouds (Rev 1:7).
2nd coming is on white horses....fact
Rapture verses have no white horses, warlike surroundings,or any post judgement settings.
Acts one tells us Jesus returns WITH NO WHITE HORSES,POWER,OR IN WAR.
Vivid.
They can be the same.
Yes we both suffer and escape.
We see this throughout the bible.
It is not either/or.
Then on that concept we have to ask "did anyone suffer 'enough' " ?
How much is appropriate?
Plus maybe salvation is bad?
We should burn instead of escape since escaping is bad and all the saved escape hell fire.?
Hmmmm,all escaping is bad?
Jesus escaped the crowd once and the baby Jesus escaped the slaughter by herod.
Jesus was self centered?
Makes zero sense to position myself on such unbiblical ground.
The word "return" (biblically) is speaking ONLY of His return to the earth at (what we call) His Second Coming to the earth:
--"when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" (Lk12:36-37,38,40-42 and its parallel in the Olivet Discourse), THEN the meal [G347 (see this word elsewhere also)]
--"RETURN" (Lk19:12,15,17,19) when He will deal out responsibilities having to do with "have thou authority over 10 cities" and "likewise be thou over 5 cities"
[But the word "return" is not applicable to when "the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR" takes place ("our episynagoges UNTO HIM" [up there]; "our Rapture [/caught UP/-AWAY]")
"hardship" is what the Church which is His body has been experiencing all throughout its existence on the earth since the first century (Eph1:20-23 WHEN [as to its existence])... we are not awaiting a future "7-yr period" IN ORDER to experience it.
Secondly, recall that the "FESTIVITIES/feast/supper" is what takes place FOLLOWING His "RETURN" to the earth (Rev19), not UP IN Heaven once we're raptured... THAT is NOT the "purpose" of our being raptured (rather, we RETURN *WITH [G4862] HIM" FOR "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER/FESTIVITIES" [on the earth] which don't only pertain to US/the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY, but ALSO to "the guestS [PLURAL]," and the "5 VirginS/BridesmaidS [PLURAL]," and the "ServantS/AttendantS [PLURAL]" of that specific, future, limited time-period (we call the Trib), who will have never lifted off the earth, who will have come to faith FOLLOWING "our Rapture," and who will ENTER the MK age (the wedding FEAST/SUPPER/FESTIVITIES aka "BLESSED") in their mortal bodies capable of reproducing/bearing children.
Yes, that would be another purpose when "our Rapture" occurs (up there)... but NOT what you've said, here:
who said that??
[you certainly have a VIVID *imagination* LOL]
1Cor6:3[14]
His return in triumph is processional. That's the story the prophets tell.
Perhaps you imagine some nice fluffy white clouds?
I see a picture of a canopy of cloud that causes the heavenly bodies to darken.
A pillar and canopy of cloud as at Sinai.
Most pre-trib rapture teachers say it. Not with the exact word "pamper"who said that??
But they have been teaching there will be a 7 or sometimes 3.5 year banquet in heaven for years.
Excluding Israel. Excluding "tribulation saints". Just an exclusive party for a part of the church.
Thank you. You've proved my point. Pre-trib is a self-centred outlook where "The Church" is glorified before The Lord.
There is no convincing scriptural evidence that Jesus taught a pre-tribulation appearance.
Scripture must be smashed & reconstructed to make it fit. I'm not blaming you, you didn't make the doctrine. But it is man-made.
It's a carnal idea that "coming for" & "coming with" MUST be severed to make sense.
Colossians 3 (KJV)
3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
His appearance IN GLORY is when EVERYONE sees him. His second coming.