The problem of the statement of “never saved to begin with”

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Mar 8, 2025
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so you are unwilling to give it all to christ, you must take a part yourself?

Again, They looked once..

They did not have to continue to believe..

He who believes is not condemned

he who does nto believe is condemned already, the language already does not allow that a person entered a state of not being condemned, and returned to the state of condemnation because they lost faith or stopped believing.
They certainly did have to
The voice (not the tense) of the verb shows who is doing the action in relation to the subject.
so you are unwilling to give it all to christ, you must take a part yourself?

Again, They looked once..

They did not have to continue to believe..

They did not have to continue to believe..
Strange that you say that when so much of the NT is devoted to COMMANDING, EXHORTING and even WARNING us to ABIDE, REMAIN and CONTINUE in Christ. If we were UNABLE to do anything but ABIDE, REMAIN and CONTINUE in Him such imperatives would be unnecessary. The fact that God issued them shows that we can go the opposite way should we so choose. Yet here you claim believers could abandon faith altogether and still make it into Glory. Paul said this:

…22But now He has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy, unblemished, and blameless in His presence— [this is God's ultimate goal and desired destination for us but to this He adds a condition] 23 IF indeed you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope of the gospel you heard, which has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.
(Colossians 1:22-23)
The conjunction IF indicates that there is a condition that needs to be fulfilled if they are to reach their FINAL HOPE. It does not say we are to go out and perform a lot of works but it does warn that we cannot abandon our faith and still reach the destination. Are some Christians moved away from the hope of the gospel? Paul presents it as a real possibility. Yet according to what you seem to be saying everything we needed to do was accomplished at the moment we were saved without any regard to our abiding and continuing in Him


I also alluded to John 's gospel which also tells us we must REMAIN or CONTINUE in the VINE to continue to possess LIFE. The word ABIDE is a PRESENT TENSE IMPERATIVE VERB which means to "abide in Him and not cease doing so." It is, therefore an ongoing process of mandatory
The voice (not the tense) of the verb shows who is doing the action in relation to the subject.
participation. The idea that WE DO NOT HAVE TO CONTINUE TO BELIEVE tells us that we can cease believing and STILL MAKE IT IN.

He who believes is not condemned. Since the word "believes" is present tense we know that the person is not condemned has faith in Christ.
 

studier

Well-known member
Apr 18, 2024
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@JimiSurvivor

I see you quoting me but don't see you saying anything that pertains to me, so I'm just reading.

I agree with much of what you're saying.
 
Mar 8, 2025
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studier said:
The voice (not the tense) of the verb shows who is doing the action in relation to the subject.

You are right about the Voice being the part of speech that refers to whether the subject is the SOURCE of the action, a RECIPIENT of it or a bit of both. I don't mind being questioned on it and even corrected but Greek is a vast and complex language, Our discussion, however, has primarily been about the tense of the verb. It is that which conveys not only the time the action took place but the TYPE as well (how it unfolded) - whether it was completed in the past or ongoing in the present. The perfect tense says that the action began in the past, reached completion leaving a completed state of being in the present. This absolutely is the primary use of the verb in the NT especially in the writings of John.

He who believes [in the ongoing and continual sense] is not condemned. Since the word "believes" is present tense we know that the person is not condemned because he has faith in Christ.
 
Mar 8, 2025
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Everlasting-Grace said:
so you are unwilling to give it all to christ, you must take a part yourself?

Again, They looked once..

They did not have to continue to believe..

A person who believes must continue to believe in Him and walk in dependent faith Does the fact that I must actively participate in this process happen make it about pride and self-will. I do not think yielding to the Spirit is "taking a part for myself." I am not a believer in "Reformed Theology" so I do not believe the will is totally helpless.

It was the Apostle Paul who told us to "walk in the Spirit" The biblical norm for ALL believers is that they walk in the Spirit: “If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit” (Galatians 5:25, Romans 8:14). In other words, once the Spirit gives us life in the new birth (John 3:6), and WE MUST CONTINUE to live, day by day, in the Spirit. Some of the worst examples of Christians were the Reformers, men like Luther who talked about Christian virtue while slaughtering the Anabaptists.
 
Feb 15, 2025
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If you do not study the text (which is made up of "WORDS") how do you study it at all? I thought we were supposed to rightly divide the word using the context and the original historical grammar. I think the "IFs" in the Bible are very important since most of the Bible consists of promises conditioned by that conjunction
I think there is a problem in thinking we can only know Godby reading the Bible. And especially as regards your observation.

Those who have no Bible or are illiterate would then be lost.

God told us he is not found in buildings constructed by our hand.

So too I would say,he is not founding books printed as different versions and for centuries,were someone to think that is our only option.

God is all.
 

Kroogz

Well-known member
Dec 5, 2023
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A SEAL would not have denoted something unbreakable and permanent to anyone living during the times when they were in use.
Better rethink that one. The Lord Jesus has the same seal we do.

John 6:27
Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

2 Cor 1:22
Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
 
Feb 17, 2023
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1 Corinthians 3:15
If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

That verse talks about the quality of a saved person's work for the Lord to determine rewards.

It's not talking about people who live in sin and rebellion against God - such people that Kroogz talks about - "who went nowhere, did nothing, did not abide, fell away and never returned" - do not have the Holy Spirit and aren't saved even if they professed that God is their Lord and Savior at one time.


🥕
 

Kroogz

Well-known member
Dec 5, 2023
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That verse talks about the quality of a saved person's work for the Lord to determine rewards.


🥕
There is no "quality" involved.

We either produce DIVINE good or Skubala. Period.

Divine good is done through the Spirit. The believer who gives a tic-tac to someone through the Holy Spirit produced Divine Good.

The believer who gives 1 million dollars to someone through the Holy Spirit produced divine good.

The ash piles differ because many believers produce a LOT of skubala.
 

Kroogz

Well-known member
Dec 5, 2023
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A SEAL would not have denoted something unbreakable and permanent to anyone living during the times when they were in use.
And.... You would be killed by the King and his men if you were running along the chariots preaching that sentiment to those who had the Kings seal.