The Rapture explained in two minutes

[Bladerunner]

Good! That means that you do believe what Revelation 11 says about the Two Witnesses - right?



What are you talking about?

 

[popeye]

I started out as a strong pretribber. I wanted to clarify my position on the pre-trib rapture so I studied the Bible very intensively for several months collating every end times passage from the Old and New Testaments. I found that there were no verses that justified a pre-trib position.

Then I started wondering how historical and orthodox the pre-trib position was. After a couple of years of intensive and original research I proved that the pre-trib idea was invented at the Albury Prophesy Conferences held near London in the late 1820s. From there it migrated to the Powerscourt Prophesy Conferences held in the early 1830s. John Darby picked it up there and spent nearly 50 years preaching it in England, the US and Canada. Scofield copied Darby's notes and included it in his reference Bible.

Then I studied Dispensationalism for a while and discovered major problems with that theology, not the least of which is their separating of the church from the Jews, and their declaration of several different gospels. In my opinion, preaching different gospels is a serious concern. It is a result of their separating the Jews from the church. They claim the Jews will be saved in a different way from the church. I consider this to be an ungodly teaching and in direct opposition to the Bible.

In their own writings, dispensationalists state that it is necessary to separate the Jews from the church in order to justify a pre-trib rapture. I have proof, however, that John Darby created this distinction in order to justify the pre-trib rapture idea. In short, all of Dispensationalism was created to support the pre-trib rapture.

I also have documentation from Robert Baxter who prophesied the pre-trib rapture in 1832, but later repented and declared his prophesying to have been demonically inspired. This raises serious questions in my mind about the validity of the pre-trib rapture.

So, yes, I was once a pre-tribber, but since giving up the deceptive dispensational indoctrination, the Bible has come to be a lot more simple and clear to me.

Then I studied Dispensationalism for a while and discovered major problems with that theology, not the least of which is their separating of the church from the Jews, and their declaration of several different gospels. In my opinion, preaching different gospels is a serious concern. It is a result of their separating the Jews from the church. They claim the Jews will be saved in a different way from the church. I consider this to be an ungodly teaching and in direct opposition to the Bible.

In their own writings, dispensationalists state that it is necessary to separate the Jews from the church in order to justify a pre-trib rapture. I have proof, however, that John Darby created this distinction in order to justify the pre-trib rapture idea. In short, all of Dispensationalism was created to support the pre-trib rapture.

Take a look a HEAVEN'S distinction/separation of Jews from "other" believers (unless you think you are from a tribe)
[FONT=&quot]3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.[/FONT]

 

[MattTooFor]

I started out as a strong pretribber. I wanted to clarify my position on the pre-trib rapture so I studied the Bible very intensively for several months collating every end times passage from the Old and New Testaments. I found that there were no verses that justified a pre-trib position.

Then I started wondering how historical and orthodox the pre-trib position was. After a couple of years of intensive and original research I proved that the pre-trib idea was invented at the Albury Prophesy Conferences held near London in the late 1820s. From there it migrated to the Powerscourt Prophesy Conferences held in the early 1830s. John Darby picked it up there and spent nearly 50 years preaching it in England, the US and Canada. Scofield copied Darby's notes and included it in his reference Bible.

Then I studied Dispensationalism for a while and discovered major problems with that theology, not the least of which is their separating of the church from the Jews, and their declaration of several different gospels. In my opinion, preaching different gospels is a serious concern. It is a result of their separating the Jews from the church. They claim the Jews will be saved in a different way from the church. I consider this to be an ungodly teaching and in direct opposition to the Bible.

In their own writings, dispensationalists state that it is necessary to separate the Jews from the church in order to justify a pre-trib rapture. I have proof, however, that John Darby created this distinction in order to justify the pre-trib rapture idea. In short, all of Dispensationalism was created to support the pre-trib rapture.

I also have documentation from Robert Baxter who prophesied the pre-trib rapture in 1832, but later repented and declared his prophesying to have been demonically inspired. This raises serious questions in my mind about the validity of the pre-trib rapture.

So, yes, I was once a pre-tribber, but since giving up the deceptive dispensational indoctrination, the Bible has come to be a lot more simple and clear to me.

Wow - you took the hard road. God bless you. I cruised through, piggy-backing on the works of Marvin Rosenthal (The Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church) and Robert VanKampen (The Sign).

 

[MattTooFor]

Matt why do you keep saying that, like it's a, be all end all statement.

By who's standard would Jesus be teaching false doctrine, whatever Jesus taught was true doctrine, it may not line up with what someone believes, but that does not make it false.

Wait a minute -- I don't believe Jesus taught false doctrine. But when PreTrib CONTRADICTS what Jesus has taught in the Olivet Discourse...it is the same as saying Jesus taught false doctrine. I think you're misunderstanding.

As for the rest of your comments...I'm not sure what you're talking about. I do not mind vigorous debate. I also believe the stakes are extremely high. I believe that huge numbers of believers who were expecting a PreTrib rapture will panic, collapse, capitulate, take the "mark of the beast" and go on to split the gates of Hell wide open. So yes, it is an extremely intense situation.

The problem for us PostTribbers is that PreTribbers live in a kind of happy-happy bubble. All the world is a giant Disneyland for most American Christians.Then we PostTribbers come along with "prepare to face great tribulation, imprisonment, affliction, even death!"

As you should be able imagine, we are not well received. I'm not sure how you're coming up with the impression that PostTribbers are the 'meanies'. It's just that we have a tough message.

 

[jaybird88]

Thanks for the clarification. You say you're not big on rapture issues. Hope you've been watching the news. History is culminating. Much talk or war. Much saber-rattling. The great political and military powers of the world are increasingly jockeying for dominance. And when it all breaks loose, there will be no miraculous PreTrib rapture to whisk away you and your loved ones. Spiritual prep is of the essence...if you look closely at the Parable of the Ten Virgins. Just sayin'.

how does one go about with spiritual prep?

 

[Johnny_B]

Wait a minute -- I don't believe Jesus taught false doctrine. But when PreTrib CONTRADICTS what Jesus has taught in the Olivet Discourse...it is the same as saying Jesus taught false doctrine. I think you're misunderstanding.

As for the rest of your comments...I'm not sure what you're talking about. I do not mind vigorous debate. I also believe the stakes are extremely high. I believe that huge numbers of believers who were expecting a PreTrib rapture will panic, collapse, capitulate, take the "mark of the beast" and go on to split the gates of Hell wide open. So yes, it is an extremely intense situation.

The problem for us PostTribbers is that PreTribbers live in a kind of happy-happy bubble. All the world is a giant Disneyland for most American Christians.Then we PostTribbers come along with "prepare to face great tribulation, imprisonment, affliction, even death!"

As you should be able imagine, we are not well received. I'm not sure how you're coming up with the impression that PostTribbers are the 'meanies'. It's just that we have a tough message.

Matt if they do they were never part if us. I never said you thought Jesus taught false doctrine. I did say that you don't know for sure what Jesus taught about the rapture or the time of His coming and either does anyone else.

What I am saying as well is you throw out your unbreakable chain of "Jesus didn't teach false doctrine" like everyone that believe different them you, believes face doctrine. As I've said before yu snd those that believe like you seem to be very quarrelsome, with no genteelness or respect for those that do not believe like you. Which I can't get wound up on a secondary doctrine. But really it on my side because I haven't read every post you've made, so I really don't know what you believe. What I do think I know is that you have a hostile nature to those that do not believe like you. I remember when I was al wound up about the end times, then realized that prophecy is given in part, so no one can know for certain what's going to happen. Except for the fact that Jesus is coming back. Whether He raptures me before the GT or after I know He will preserve me through it, if that's His plan for me.

I still need to read your e-book to understand what you believe, but really all I'm trying to say is, don't be quarrelsome over these things they are not the important. Over someone pushing works based salvation.

God Bless.

 

[Dan_473]

Glorious Heavenly Father, I am troubled by the confusion and error regarding the end times events that this and other threads display. Father, you know my heart and my thinking on the subject. I sincerely pray that you will make your truth clear to both sides of this argument. I pray the Holy Spirit will lead those in error (including myself, where appropriate) to humility and truth in this matter.

Father, I cannot convince anyone of anything. All I can do is share my experience and perspective.

Father, I have been called serious names because I am trying to share what I believe you led me to understand. Father, where I am wrong, please correct me. Where I am "right" please encourage me.

Father, I don't understand why there is such disagreement on the pre-trib vs post-trib rapture. It seems to me that both sides should desire to come to an agreement on the truth of the matter. Father, at least one side is wrong in their thinking about the subject. I pray for your grace and mercy to reach into both sides and guide us into a knowledge of your truth on the subject.

Father, please grant us humility and a passion for the truth that overrides our deception and indoctrination. Grant us a passion for understanding the truth of the Bible and of your will for the endtimes.

I pray your truth will be made clear in this subject and that those who are mistaken or indoctrinated in deception will humbly submit to your truth in this matter.

Father, please reach out to those who are wrong (including myself where appropriate) and grant them (us) wisdom, humility, and a passion for the truth in everything related to the Bible.

I ask these things in the name of your one and only human born Son, Messiah Jesus.

hi EarnestQ,

I think it's also possible that what actually happens will be something neither 'side' expects.

like, before Jesus came, few people (maybe nobody?) thought that's what the Messiah would look like.

 

[EarnestQ]

hi EarnestQ,

I think it's also possible that what actually happens will be something neither 'side' expects.

like, before Jesus came, few people (maybe nobody?) thought that's what the Messiah would look like.

I think you have a reasonable chance of being right about that.

 

[Dan_473]

It's an interesting question but it has no impact on the debate between PreTrib and Post-"Great Trib". Both sides would be equally interested in the exact meaning.

There are a number of potential answers, but none of them would seem to impact on the debate either way, as far as I can tell.

I could get into a discussion, but for now I'm hoping to keep my wayward thread at least halfway on track! Start a thread, maybe.

I thought that you were saying that when Jesus prophesied to Peter, James, and John, they understood that he was prophesying to them. That is, that they would see the AoD.

but if only some believers will see the AoD, how does that mean the rapture must be post-trib?

I'm not following that part.

 

[popeye]

I thought that you were saying that when Jesus prophesied to Peter, James, and John, they understood that he was prophesying to them. That is, that they would see the AoD.

but if only some believers will see the AoD, how does that mean the rapture must be post-trib?

I'm not following that part.

It probably has to do with the armies surrounding Jerusalem,then burning it in 70 ad.

The reason that dynamic is off concerning the rapture is because of the bulk of verses pointing to a pretrib rapture, surrounding one or Two verses that are a mystery.

Note that he EXCLUDES all other possibilities for the "in your lifetime" statements of Jesus. There are others that are a mystery,but to attach that dynamic recklessly to,and commit blindly to postrib rapture in the face of me and others clearly showing postrib's resounding defeat and IMPOSSIBILITY, at this late hour,and the introduction of the bride /groom component,they are just getting further and further into "never land"

 

[popeye]

how does one go about with spiritual prep?

Apparently by following his example.

Find a forum and demonize believers,then assert they will fall apart at the advent of who he looks and hopes for.....the AC
Since he and his followers are doing that,they are "ready".

What a joke

 

[Dan_473]

Matt why do you keep saying that, like it's a, be all end all statement.

By who's standard would Jesus be teaching false doctrine, whatever Jesus taught was true doctrine, it may not line up with what someone believes, but that does not make it false.

What did Peter and Jude say I Peter 3:15-16 “But in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect,16 having a good conscience, so that, when you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame.”

Jude 1:3-4 "Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. 4 For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ."

II Timothy 2:23-26 "Have nothing to do with foolish, ignorant controversies; you know that they breed quarrels.24 And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil,25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, 26 and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will."

They are not talking about eschatology, they are talking about the hope that we have, the receiving of our glorified bodies. Jude is talking about salvation is by grace and unbelieving men are trying to say if it's grace live however you want to live. We need to defend the faith of salvation by grace and grace alone.

The part that bums me out are all those, that are saying pre-trib is evil, from the devil, are not following the instructions of Peter "with gentleness and respect," or Paul "must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil,25 correcting his opponents with gentleness."

It seems all the per-trib guys follow and have these attributes, which by these guidelines makes me think that they are more than likely right, because they are the ones that seem to be, "having a good conscience, so that, when you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame."

The name calling starts with the ones that say, there is no rapture, no GT, no pre-trib, it stands to reason those those that do believe those things, have the Spirit guiding them with meekness and respect. Maybe I'm wrong, but I still haven't seen the answer to my question about, Matthew 24:30 on "the sign of the coming of the Son of Man in the sky" with the following verses seem to be speaking of a rapture with one taken, one left. The Son of Man's return is in Matthew 25:31. So what is the "sign of His coming in the sky" mean? If someone did answer it can they please post the link, because that is a verse that seems to line up with "the Lord will meet us in the air" And it is one of the questions the disciples ask. When will these things be (Temple), what is the sign of you coming and the end of the age? So there's a sign and His coming at the end of the age, what's the sign in the sky of His coming? Thanks.

' It seems all the per-trib guys follow and have these attributes (gentleness, respect, kindness, etc.), which by these guidelines makes me think that they are more than likely right... '



that's an amazing observation.

I want to keep it in mind as I read the posts and see if I have the same impression over time.

 

[popeye]

...then attack our character while illegally using this forum to promote his antichrist website.

....then you are ready,only because you are not pretrib.

YOU CAN'T MAKE THIS STUFF UP.

Beyond bizarre

 

[Dan_473]

Wait a minute -- I don't believe Jesus taught false doctrine. But when PreTrib CONTRADICTS what Jesus has taught in the Olivet Discourse...it is the same as saying Jesus taught false doctrine. I think you're misunderstanding.

As for the rest of your comments...I'm not sure what you're talking about. I do not mind vigorous debate. I also believe the stakes are extremely high. I believe that huge numbers of believers who were expecting a PreTrib rapture will panic, collapse, capitulate, take the "mark of the beast" and go on to split the gates of Hell wide open. So yes, it is an extremely intense situation.

The problem for us PostTribbers is that PreTribbers live in a kind of happy-happy bubble. All the world is a giant Disneyland for most American Christians.Then we PostTribbers come along with "prepare to face great tribulation, imprisonment, affliction, even death!"

As you should be able imagine, we are not well received. I'm not sure how you're coming up with the impression that PostTribbers are the 'meanies'. It's just that we have a tough message.

' ...believers who were expecting a PreTrib rapture will panic, collapse, capitulate, take the "mark of the beast" and go on to split the gates of Hell wide open.'



I think those believers would fit this description
ST. MARK 4:17 And they have no root in themselves, but endure for a while; then, when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately they fall away.

imo, they are in tremendous danger even if it turns out they will die before the Antichrist comes on the scene.

 

[MattTooFor]

how does one go about with spiritual prep?

For me, spiritual strength comes through prayer and filling my mind with the scriptures...particularly those scriptures which talk about God keeping us and strengthening us in times of trouble.

The premier prayer of the end times was presented by Jesus Himself in the Luke version of the Olivet Discourse, where He instructed: "Pray that you may be accounted worthy to escape all that is about to happen". Some translations read "pray that you may have the strength...".

So I pray that prayer every day for my family and loved ones and myself. After all, there are many who WILL escape harm and death...and will indeed survive to the great and glorious "Gathering".

And then I continue to pore over the scriptures for all things pertaining to end times and the attendant promises...of how God will see us through. I have told my children (young adults who still live with me) there may be times when you only now how to make one single more step. Times might get that bad...but God will provide the next step, even if it's only that one step.

I imagine most of us have been in moments or times of absolute crisis...where we experienced how the "peace that passes all understanding" (Phil.4:7) begins to kick in. Throughout the years I have read every Christian biography or autobiography of Christian "heroes" that I could get my hands on. Over and over again, these folks have described how God's grace was poured out on their lives in the moments of imminent death and danger. This wonderful peace and strength.

"Precious in the sight of the Lord" (Psalms 116:15) are not only the "death" of God's saints...I would argue this also applies to the moments of great crisis...in which we draw so close to the Lord, that afterwards, many, many folks have testified those were the best moments of their lives in many ways.

The other thing I have done is...once I realized there was not going to be this PreTrib rapture which supposedly was going to carry me off to heaven "on flowery beds of ease"...there was this wonderful discovery process that began as I read back over the New Testament and realized all these NT authors were writing the scriptures with a post-"Great Tribulation" in mind. All of a sudden, the Bible opened up to me with astonishing clarity as I realized all these authors are my compatriots and all their writings began to make 100% more sense. You begin to find nugget after nugget.

And you begin to fill your mind with all these great strengthening scriptures. The NT believers learned that they needed to live their lives out "under the gun" so to speak. American Christians have been taught to lives their out lives sitting in a Starbucks, slurping on Cafe Lattes. An incredibly ultra-dangerous and tragic mindset.

Much of the time, American Christians walk around with their nose in the air and with an attitude "we're here, we're Evangelicals, get used to it". There is this Dominionism-based over-confidence and even a kind of pomposity much of the time. They are being fattened for the slaughter, unfortunately.

America will fall. Americas will come under the dominion of this prophesied world leader and his brutal regime. Just read the news. Even unsaved secular people are recognizing the proverbial "light at the end of the tunnel" is actually an oncoming train.

As I now read through the Scriptures (the NT) I realize "wow, these people all lived with an expectation of having to go through "great tribulation" just as Jesus had told Peter, James, John and Andrew..and as these disciples had obviously passed along to all the other followers of Jesus, over all the years of their earthly ministry.

One of the other things that developed hugely in my life is...since I (25 years ago when I left PreTrib behind) increasingly began to see this world as just a huge and tragic 'garbage dump' and with everything the world has to offer as being no better than "filthy rags" (Is. 64:6)...compared to most American Christians who subscribe to the "American Dream" religion (without, of course, consciously acknowledging it)...my sights shifted dramatically from earth to heaven.

In fact, so much so that there might have been a few times when I became "so heavenly minded, I was no earthly good" (as the saying goes). But personally, I've really developed an orientation (or "vision", one might say) to what is coming next - the Kingdom of God...which, of course, spans the universe and spans eternity. All the things we will experience and see and live - just alone the New Jerusalem, the greatest and most beautiful "city" there ever has been or ever will be. I could go on but...maybe for another thread if I survive CC.

But when you think about the vastness and the beauty of God's kingdom, that we are "joint heirs" (co-owners), with a trillion galaxies (according to NASA) and maybe a trillion quadrillion galaxies, for all we know...and God's subjects (the angelic beings) presumably sprinkled out amongst this kingdom...and presumably those who have gone on before us also spread out throughout the Kingdom (Jesus said the angels will gather the "elect" from "one end of the heavens to the other")...and just the prospect of being held safe in the arms of Jesus...

...the Bible says "without a vision, the people perish". I believe that. I've tried to develop that vision so that when I am in the middle of the darkest hours in human history, I will know that the night becomes its darkest, just before the dawn. I will be waiting for that brilliant burst of God's glory, a shout and the sound of the trumpet, and as Jesus says (in the Luke version of the Olivet Discourse): "But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."

 

[jaybird88]

For me, spiritual strength comes through prayer and filling my mind with the scriptures...particularly those scriptures which talk about God keeping us and strengthening us in times of trouble.

i agree with that but i dont get what it has to do with understanding when the rapture takes place. what if you were to accurately pinpoint a specific event in todays world to a rapture prophecy passage in the bible. how does it benefit anyone?

Galatians 5:22-23
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

[SUP]Matthew 25:42-46
42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.

IMO if one incorporated the virtues Paul teaches in Galations into their everyday lives or follow the works Jesus teaches in Matthew it would benefit many. should we not be doing these things anyway and not just doing them because we think the rapture day is here.
[/SUP]

 

[Dan_473]

For me, spiritual strength comes through prayer and filling my mind with the scriptures...particularly those scriptures which talk about God keeping us and strengthening us in times of trouble.

The premier prayer of the end times was presented by Jesus Himself in the Luke version of the Olivet Discourse, where He instructed: "Pray that you may be accounted worthy to escape all that is about to happen". Some translations read "pray that you may have the strength...".

So I pray that prayer every day for my family and loved ones and myself. After all, there are many who WILL escape harm and death...and will indeed survive to the great and glorious "Gathering".

And then I continue to pore over the scriptures for all things pertaining to end times and the attendant promises...of how God will see us through. I have told my children (young adults who still live with me) there may be times when you only now how to make one single more step. Times might get that bad...but God will provide the next step, even if it's only that one step.

I imagine most of us have been in moments or times of absolute crisis...where we experienced how the "peace that passes all understanding" (Phil.4:7) begins to kick in. Throughout the years I have read every Christian biography or autobiography of Christian "heroes" that I could get my hands on. Over and over again, these folks have described how God's grace was poured out on their lives in the moments of imminent death and danger. This wonderful peace and strength.

"Precious in the sight of the Lord" (Psalms 116:15) are not only the "death" of God's saints...I would argue this also applies to the moments of great crisis...in which we draw so close to the Lord, that afterwards, many, many folks have testified those were the best moments of their lives in many ways.

The other thing I have done is...once I realized there was not going to be this PreTrib rapture which supposedly was going to carry me off to heaven "on flowery beds of ease"...there was this wonderful discovery process that began as I read back over the New Testament and realized all these NT authors were writing the scriptures with a post-"Great Tribulation" in mind. All of a sudden, the Bible opened up to me with astonishing clarity as I realized all these authors are my compatriots and all their writings began to make 100% more sense. You begin to find nugget after nugget.

And you begin to fill your mind with all these great strengthening scriptures. The NT believers learned that they needed to live their lives out "under the gun" so to speak. American Christians have been taught to lives their out lives sitting in a Starbucks, slurping on Cafe Lattes. An incredibly ultra-dangerous and tragic mindset.

Much of the time, American Christians walk around with their nose in the air and with an attitude "we're here, we're Evangelicals, get used to it". There is this Dominionism-based over-confidence and even a kind of pomposity much of the time. They are being fattened for the slaughter, unfortunately.

America will fall. Americas will come under the dominion of this prophesied world leader and his brutal regime. Just read the news. Even unsaved secular people are recognizing the proverbial "light at the end of the tunnel" is actually an oncoming train.

As I now read through the Scriptures (the NT) I realize "wow, these people all lived with an expectation of having to go through "great tribulation" just as Jesus had told Peter, James, John and Andrew..and as these disciples had obviously passed along to all the other followers of Jesus, over all the years of their earthly ministry.

One of the other things that developed hugely in my life is...since I (25 years ago when I left PreTrib behind) increasingly began to see this world as just a huge and tragic 'garbage dump' and with everything the world has to offer as being no better than "filthy rags" (Is. 64:6)...compared to most American Christians who subscribe to the "American Dream" religion (without, of course, consciously acknowledging it)...my sights shifted dramatically from earth to heaven.

In fact, so much so that there might have been a few times when I became "so heavenly minded, I was no earthly good" (as the saying goes). But personally, I've really developed an orientation (or "vision", one might say) to what is coming next - the Kingdom of God...which, of course, spans the universe and spans eternity. All the things we will experience and see and live - just alone the New Jerusalem, the greatest and most beautiful "city" there ever has been or ever will be. I could go on but...maybe for another thread if I survive CC.

But when you think about the vastness and the beauty of God's kingdom, that we are "joint heirs" (co-owners), with a trillion galaxies (according to NASA) and maybe a trillion quadrillion galaxies, for all we know...and God's subjects (the angelic beings) presumably sprinkled out amongst this kingdom...and presumably those who have gone on before us also spread out throughout the Kingdom (Jesus said the angels will gather the "elect" from "one end of the heavens to the other")...and just the prospect of being held safe in the arms of Jesus...

...the Bible says "without a vision, the people perish". I believe that. I've tried to develop that vision so that when I am in the middle of the darkest hours in human history, I will know that the night becomes its darkest, just before the dawn. I will be waiting for that brilliant burst of God's glory, a shout and the sound of the trumpet, and as Jesus says (in the Luke version of the Olivet Discourse): "But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."

' For me, spiritual strength comes through prayer and filling my mind with the scriptures...particularly those scriptures which talk about God keeping us and strengthening us in times of trouble.'

same here!






' Americas will come under the dominion of this prophesied world leader and his brutal regime'

so... you sound really certain about that. I agree that we may see the Antichrist in our lifetimes. But... I think it's also possible the USA will be around in 200 years, with no Antichrist.

is there something that has happened that has put a definite time limit on it?

 

[MattTooFor]

i agree with that but i dont get what it has to do with understanding when the rapture takes place.

Well...I don't know "when the rapture takes place". (?)

what if you were to accurately pinpoint a specific event in todays world to a rapture prophecy passage in the bible. how does it benefit anyone?

Because then you would have the opportunity to prepare spiritually...just as Jesus says is necessary to do for the end days. He was the one who has said there is required special preparation for the dark hours. That wasn't my 'invention'. It is the instruction of Jesus.

if one incorporated the virtues Paul teaches in Galations into their everyday lives

Again...going through the time of "great tribulation" is NOT an "everyday" experience. Jesus indicates there is a special and focused preparation that is necessary for bracing oneself for the explosive, violent menacing emergence of the Antichrist who will immediately demand allegiance and the mark of the beast.

PreTrib Christians will be sitting in their churches for emergency meetings (so I would envision it) in a state of panic and shock. The pre-positioned and therefore highly credible "false prophets" (some of whom I have tried to tentatively identify here at CC with a thread or two) will come forth with seductive appeals to "cooperate" with the new world regime ("It's not the 'mark', people. It's just a government mandate which Christians are obligated to obey" and so forth)...

..and that, combined with the utter lack of spiritual, emotional preparation will cause many to fall, just as Jesus has prophesied will happen:

"At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many." (Matthew 24:10,11)

I'm not sure why you're quoting Matthew 25:42-46 to me...but many of these suspected wolves/"false prophets" are already on the scene. Below - tentative indication of sinister, undercover, secret allegiances from a highly popular "Christian leader". Most people in the church world do NOT want to contemplate such things and I am routinely "punished" for trying to do my "Paul Revere" thing - "the false prophets are coming, the false prophets are coming!" - LOL

So there you have it: A "Christian leader" flashing a known satanic signaling (the clawed hand) - the Lion's Paw. There is ZERO explanation forthcoming from Pat Robertson or his people. And there are a hundred more such examples from among the TOP and most popular Christian leaders.

Not every Christian luminary is satanic. But many DO give such indication. I would draw up short of dogmatism with any specific examples but...the above photo should be shocking and of great concern and of great interest.

Instead, what I experience 99% of the time is...people withdraw, make a few slapping, rebuking remarks, and then hightail it to the nearest Starbucks.

 

[MattTooFor]

is there something that has happened that has put a definite time limit on it?

Not really. But...who among 'alternative' thinkers doesn't believe it is only a matter of time before the US currency collapses with the evil Fed counterfeiting the dollar and racking up 20 trillion dollars of phony debt...and thus causing the economy to collapse?

Folks like me who make a rather concerted effort to circumvent the "mainstream media" (Fox News, CNN, ABC, NBC, CBS, Wall Street Journal, Bill O'Reilly, Rush Limbaugh, Wolf Blitzer, Anderson Cooper, etc. etc.)...foresee troubles coming, sooner rather than later.

And look at all the international trouble brewing right now. If this isn't the time of "wars and rumors of wars", I wouldn't know what is. I think any Bible student should look at current events and realize history is culminating...and doing so at an increasingly rapid rate. My two cents.

 

[PlainWord]

The Abomination of (which causeth) Desolation was the Roman armies in 66-73 AD. They destroyed the city, stone-by-stone. They carried all the Jewish people away into captivity. They stood in the Temple before they burned it down. Any foreigner inside of the Temple gates is an Abomination. Luke's account in 21 clearly replaces the Abomination of Desolation with "Jerusalem being surrounded by armies. These armies were Roman and they laid siege to the city forcing the people into starvation and cannibalization.

The Great Tribulation dealt with the period back then and pertained only to Israel, that is why Jesus clearly states that "those in Judea are to flee." Nobody else was told to flee. The false Christs were found back then and led many to their deaths. The conditions inside the city were the worst the world has ever seen. All one has to do is read Josephus "War of the Jews" to know that the Great Tribulation is over.

Jesus makes clear that when He returns, it will be like in the days of Noah, i.e., much sinning, etc. and He makes clear that life will be as normal to most. If Christ were to return immediately after a world wide Great Tribulation, wouldn't everyone know?

So much confusion out there.