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Johnny B----looks like a outline. Hard to follow..... It you want I can post a link for an Olivet Discourse that will teach you all the in's and out's or the four Gospels... Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.
M
MattTooFor
Guest
I could be wrong but I believe there hasn't been a single top name PreTrib 'celebrity' proponent who has ever dared offer an Olivet Discourse commentary, in which they go slowly verse-by-verse through the text. Not John MacArthur, David Jeremiah, Tim LaHaye, Jack Van Impe, John Walvoord, C.I. Scofield, Dave Hunt, Grant Jeffrey, nor even Chuck Swindoll - former president of Dallas Theological Seminary, academic world headquarters for PreTrib doctrine.
Get the top most famous PreTrib pastors, authors, lecturers, "intellectuals" in a room and ask them to take you verse-by-verse through the Olivet Discourse...and you're going to hear crickets.
You may find some 2nd and 3rd string guys who might be linked over at the (hilarious) "Rapture Ready" website...guys like Thomas Ice (who used to be LaHaye's 'waterboy') and some others.
M
MattTooFor
Guest
It was explained in two minutes. Just read the OP. It'll take you two minutes!
The rest of this thread is just the wailing and gnashing of assorted PreTribbers - LOL!
This post is about some of the main planks that support the Pre Trib rapture teaching.
Johns Trip to Heaven and the absence of the word Church
Having had a vision of Christ and receiving the letters to the seven Churches John is invited up to Heaven to see visions of '' What is to take place after this'' Rev 4:1. In this verse its worth noting that there is no mention of the tribulation or the
rapture in this verse and yet we are led to believe that this is some type of the rapture. In verse two John explains that he was ''in the spirit''. Paul also mentions .a man that was taken to third heaven. He states that he didn't know whether it was in the spirit or bodily. Some think he was talking about himself. One thing he does'nt mention about it is the rapture
which appears to be a missed opportunity.
Another part of the Pre Trib 'evidence' is that there is no mention of the phrase Church or Churches after Rev Chapter 3
and only Saint or Saints are used, which they believe means that the church is absent during the tribulation. There is a simpler explanation. In the NT the word Church is used when addressing individual churches. When believers in general are addressed Saints or the Elect is used instead. Revelation has seven individual letters one for each church. The rest of the book is directed at them all so Saints or the Elect is used instead. Revelation is not the only book that doesn't use the word Church. You wont find it in the following: Mark,Luke,John, II Timothy,Titus,I Peter,II Peter,I John,II John and Jude.
Not appointed to wrath
No believers are not appointed for wrath, but Revelation makes it clear who are in several places. Its no great mystery
those appointed for wrath are UNBELIEVERS. Does that mean that God has to take believers off the earth first before he can deal with them. Is God incapable of protecting Christians and can only protect earth bound Jews in the tribulation?
When God sent the plagues on Egypt the Israelite's were not taken from the earth they were protected in Goshem. They were also protected by having blood on the doorposts of their houses. A number of the same plagues mentioned in Revelation are the same as those that were used in Exodus. That should give a strong indication that Gods methods
are often used more than once.
Who returns with Jesus?
According to Pre Trib teaching we are all Raptured before the tribulation and return with him in our glorified bodies after seven years at the second coming. But hold on a second something is missing. According to Paul the dead in Christ rise first and then the living join them to meet the lord in the air. Where are the righteous dead? Unless you believe in soul sleep the righteous dead are with Jesus in Heaven now awaiting their glorified bodies. There must be millions of them.
so who returns with Jesus at the second coming? The dead saints in Heaven. Both living and righteous dead are raptured
at his second coming in a twinkling of an eye and meet him in the air as he descends to the earth.
Johns Trip to Heaven and the absence of the word Church
Having had a vision of Christ and receiving the letters to the seven Churches John is invited up to Heaven to see visions of '' What is to take place after this'' Rev 4:1. In this verse its worth noting that there is no mention of the tribulation or the
rapture in this verse and yet we are led to believe that this is some type of the rapture. In verse two John explains that he was ''in the spirit''. Paul also mentions .a man that was taken to third heaven. He states that he didn't know whether it was in the spirit or bodily. Some think he was talking about himself. One thing he does'nt mention about it is the rapture
which appears to be a missed opportunity.
Another part of the Pre Trib 'evidence' is that there is no mention of the phrase Church or Churches after Rev Chapter 3
and only Saint or Saints are used, which they believe means that the church is absent during the tribulation. There is a simpler explanation. In the NT the word Church is used when addressing individual churches. When believers in general are addressed Saints or the Elect is used instead. Revelation has seven individual letters one for each church. The rest of the book is directed at them all so Saints or the Elect is used instead. Revelation is not the only book that doesn't use the word Church. You wont find it in the following: Mark,Luke,John, II Timothy,Titus,I Peter,II Peter,I John,II John and Jude.
Not appointed to wrath
No believers are not appointed for wrath, but Revelation makes it clear who are in several places. Its no great mystery
those appointed for wrath are UNBELIEVERS. Does that mean that God has to take believers off the earth first before he can deal with them. Is God incapable of protecting Christians and can only protect earth bound Jews in the tribulation?
When God sent the plagues on Egypt the Israelite's were not taken from the earth they were protected in Goshem. They were also protected by having blood on the doorposts of their houses. A number of the same plagues mentioned in Revelation are the same as those that were used in Exodus. That should give a strong indication that Gods methods
are often used more than once.
Who returns with Jesus?
According to Pre Trib teaching we are all Raptured before the tribulation and return with him in our glorified bodies after seven years at the second coming. But hold on a second something is missing. According to Paul the dead in Christ rise first and then the living join them to meet the lord in the air. Where are the righteous dead? Unless you believe in soul sleep the righteous dead are with Jesus in Heaven now awaiting their glorified bodies. There must be millions of them.
so who returns with Jesus at the second coming? The dead saints in Heaven. Both living and righteous dead are raptured
at his second coming in a twinkling of an eye and meet him in the air as he descends to the earth.
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There has been numerous post on this thread by myself and others that would show you that Rapture is true but you will not accept them. It is ok,, you are one of the few who do not believe in the Rapture. Better have plan B ready when we are gone one day, that is if you are still kicking.
WHen it gets right down to it,,,,why do you care whether they were brothers or not...It was Jesus that gave them the message to write down. WHAT ABOUT THE MESSAGE>
P
prodigal
Guest
so if the church is raptured and becomes the bride of christ Ephesians 5:25–27 and later the hebrews are brought back in, to be the bride of christ Hosea 2:16 is God a polygamist?
For years I thought that all professing Christians were people of great integrity who had only one goal in mind, to truly follow God in all areas. I really do not understand how professing Christians today can promote the pre-trib rapture. We all believed in it at one time because it spread through the church by John Darby and his followers and had it's appeal in that it was a way out of the tribulation. However today we know all about the history of the pre-trib rapture and how it is not really in the bible, yet with all this education and revelation we still have the major part of the church hanging on to this belief. It is very easy to find that pre-trib is false to a person who believes in integrity...where is the honesty and integrity and truthfulness that should be in the church? At one time I really did believe that if you presented the literal in context evidence to a Christian they would immediately accept the truth...boy have I been wrong.
Are you trying to be funny...... You may end up funny-ing yourself to .......if you are not careful. To blaspheme God is not good. Not that you did, but you are getting very close in my estimation.
The Church is considered Jesus Christ's bride... as told by Himself...... The Israeli people (the Jews) are The Father's people. Jesus will rule through the Jewish people in Jerusalem along with His Bride who will be the Kings and Priest thoughout the world during his 1000 year reign
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Blade, Sorry but only one body of Christ, what is left of Israel as a nation will come into the body of Christ at the end of the age. I think the joke was well taken to show how messed up is this idea that the church and Israel are completely separate from one another.
P
prodigal
Guest
whats funny is believing that daniel couldn't count when he got everything else exact, promoting a second chance doctrine is dangerous. And as many are converted through the 2 witnesses, this is what your doctrine leads too. i see you missed the bit where the hebrews are also called the bride..
i see you still couldn't answer the question. so your answer is to accuse of near on blasphemy.
dont you think that Jesus would have mentioned it, seems like an important issue.,but in matthew 24 he seemed to forget somehow. John derby dismissed a lot of the nt.
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That is what John Darby and the Dispensationalists mean when they say, "rightly divide the word of truth". That means that some passages are applied to the church and other passages (that indicate a post trib resurrection) are applied to the Jews. This is, in my humble opinion, anti Biblical.
The Bible clearly says the gentiles - the church - are (is) grafted into Israel. Those who are born again are true sons of Abraham through faith.
Dispensationalism denies this in order to support the pre-trib rapture.
Historically, the pre-trib rapture came from the Albury prophesy conferences in the late 1820s. In the early 1830s Darby got a hold of it and invented Darby Dispensationalism, including the separation of the church and the Jews, to support it.
To protect his pre-trib rapture he had to dismiss parts of the New Testament from applying to the church. He did this by claiming it applied to the Jews. This distinction also came from Albury.
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