"Then how are you ressurected with Christ in Baptist? If there be no ressurection from the dead." Paul the apostle
The Rapture of the Church is not biblical.
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"Then how are you ressurected with Christ in Baptist? If there be no ressurection from the dead." Paul the apostle
Greetings JohnOs,
The belief that the "last trumpet" of 1 Cor.15:52 is synonymous with the 7th trumpet, is an on-going erroneous belief and teaching.
First of all, the gathering of the church at the "last trumpet" is a blessing for the church. In opposition, the 7th trumpet is one of the plagues during the time of God's wrath.
And second, there is nothing in or around the context of the 7th trumpet that infers that the gathering of the church is taking place.
And third, if the church was to be gathered at the 7th trumpet, it would put the living church through the majority of God's wrath, namely, the seals and the trumpet judgments, which believers are not appointed to suffer and that because Jesus already took upon Him the wrath that every believer deserves and because scripture states that we are not appointed to suffer God's wrath.
Therefore, the gathering of the church must take place prior to the on-set of God's wrath, i.e. prior to the first seal being opened.
The scripture above is from Matt.24:31 which takes place when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age. You have to understand that, the gathering of the church and the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, are two separate events. One is when Jesus descends to the atmosphere to call up the church and the other is when Christ returns to the earth to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom.
Yes. And also that like Baptism we resurrected upon or salvation to new life. Also there is eternity because Christ rose again.
The bible talks of two resurrections only, the first in Rev 20 where the souls of those beheaded will judge with Christ and the second when everyone else is resurrected to be judged Rev 20 and Daniel 12. When will this secret resurrection and rapture of 1 Cor 15 happen?
Again, me and you have been through this issue of Christ's return. Jesus doesn't return as a physical entity but as the kingdom of God which no one can say " here it is.." or ".. there it is ..", He is and was and is to come the Almighty- meaning that immediately after death and resurrection, Jesus has been coming into the belivers from that time and is on going till the end of the age.
But just to be clear, no one flies off (Rapture).
Let me go eat first then i'll explain to you what rapture is. It is biblical but it can not be mass rapture of the church.
Greetings Noose,
Just fyi, that resurrection there is of the great tribulation saints who will have died during that last 3 1/2 years because of their testimony for Jesus and the word of God and who will not have worshiped the beast, his image nor received his mark.
Also, the "first resurrection" has stages or phases to it:
* Jesus the first fruits - (1 Cor.15:22-23)
* The church at the Lord's appearing - (John 14:1-3, 1 Thes.4:13-18, 1 Cor.15:51-53)
* The Male child/144,000 - (Rev.12:5)
* The two witnesses - (Rev.11:11-12)
* The great tribulation saints - (Rev.20:4-6)
It is important to understand that "first resurrection" doesn't mean "Only Resurrection." Every resurrection that takes place prior to the resurrection at the end of the thousand years belongs to the first resurrection. It is the resurrection at the end of the thousand years that one would not want to be apart of, for that is the resurrection of the unrighteous dead who will be resurrected out of Hades.
It would be to your credit to take a look at the definition of the word "anastasis" translated as "resurrection," which ONLY refers to the physical body standing up again. Below is the definition of anastasis:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Strong's Concordance
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: anastasis
Phonetic Spelling: (an-as'-tas-is)
Short Definition: a rising again, resurrection
Definition: a rising again, resurrection.
HELPS Word-studies
386 anástasis (from 303 /aná, "up, again" and 2476 /hístēmi, "to stand") – literally, "stand up" (or "stand again"), referring to physical resurrection (of the body).
Christ's physical resurrection is the foundation of Christianity, which also guarantees the future resurrection of all believers (see Jn 6:39,40,44).
[386 /anástasis ("resurrection") refers to the physical, bodily resurrection of Christ – and people (both of the redeemed and the unredeemed).]
In Rev.20:4, he first sees the souls of the great tribulation saints who were beheaded, then he sees them come to life i.e. resurrect, which would mean that their bodies are reanimated and their spirits are reunited with their resurrected bodies.
According to Phil.1:22-24 and 2 Cor.5:6, when a believer dies their spirit departs and goes to be in the presence of the Lord. This is not a resurrection, for a resurrection is when the spirit returns to the body, not departs from it. When the resurrection of the church takes place, those who have died in Christ from the on-set of the church will come with Christ where at which time their bodies will be resurrected and their spirits will be reunited with their now resurrected bodies. Immediately after that, the living in Christ will be changed into their immortal and glorified bodies and will be caught up with them to meet the Lord in the air.
Jesus is our example of the resurrection. He died on the cross and His spirit departed from his body and went down to Sheol/Hades, which was the same place that Abraham and Lazarus were, that place of comfort. On the third day, Jesus' spirit returned to his body in the tomb and resurrected in the same body, albeit, immortal and glorified.
Just fyi, that resurrection there is of the great tribulation saints who will have died during that last 3 1/2 years because of their testimony for Jesus and the word of God and who will not have worshiped the beast, his image nor received his mark.
Also, the "first resurrection" has stages or phases to it:
* Jesus the first fruits - (1 Cor.15:22-23)
* The church at the Lord's appearing - (John 14:1-3, 1 Thes.4:13-18, 1 Cor.15:51-53)
* The Male child/144,000 - (Rev.12:5)
* The two witnesses - (Rev.11:11-12)
* The great tribulation saints - (Rev.20:4-6)
It is important to understand that "first resurrection" doesn't mean "Only Resurrection." Every resurrection that takes place prior to the resurrection at the end of the thousand years belongs to the first resurrection. It is the resurrection at the end of the thousand years that one would not want to be apart of, for that is the resurrection of the unrighteous dead who will be resurrected out of Hades.
It would be to your credit to take a look at the definition of the word "anastasis" translated as "resurrection," which ONLY refers to the physical body standing up again. Below is the definition of anastasis:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Strong's Concordance
anastasis: a standing up, i.e. a resurrection, a raising up, rising
Original Word: ἀνάστασις, εως, ἡPart of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: anastasis
Phonetic Spelling: (an-as'-tas-is)
Short Definition: a rising again, resurrection
Definition: a rising again, resurrection.
HELPS Word-studies
386 anástasis (from 303 /aná, "up, again" and 2476 /hístēmi, "to stand") – literally, "stand up" (or "stand again"), referring to physical resurrection (of the body).
Christ's physical resurrection is the foundation of Christianity, which also guarantees the future resurrection of all believers (see Jn 6:39,40,44).
[386 /anástasis ("resurrection") refers to the physical, bodily resurrection of Christ – and people (both of the redeemed and the unredeemed).]
In Rev.20:4, he first sees the souls of the great tribulation saints who were beheaded, then he sees them come to life i.e. resurrect, which would mean that their bodies are reanimated and their spirits are reunited with their resurrected bodies.
According to Phil.1:22-24 and 2 Cor.5:6, when a believer dies their spirit departs and goes to be in the presence of the Lord. This is not a resurrection, for a resurrection is when the spirit returns to the body, not departs from it. When the resurrection of the church takes place, those who have died in Christ from the on-set of the church will come with Christ where at which time their bodies will be resurrected and their spirits will be reunited with their now resurrected bodies. Immediately after that, the living in Christ will be changed into their immortal and glorified bodies and will be caught up with them to meet the Lord in the air.
Jesus is our example of the resurrection. He died on the cross and His spirit departed from his body and went down to Sheol/Hades, which was the same place that Abraham and Lazarus were, that place of comfort. On the third day, Jesus' spirit returned to his body in the tomb and resurrected in the same body, albeit, immortal and glorified.
The word rapture like trinity doesn't appear in the Word. Though I don't think that's what they are talking about. Jesus tells us we will be caught up, what most Christians refer to as the rapture. The we there is referring to the body which of course is the Church. One thing I never did as a new Christian was read books about the bible and there was no internet as we know it. I would be very wary about teachings on the web or out of books. You will find most arguments on here about doctrine come from people reading books about the Word and seldom reading the Word. From the amount of time people spend doing that I seriously doubt many of them are even spending quality time in prayer. My best advice is do as Jesus says and stick to reading the Word and praying. Remember the Holy Spirit is in you revealing Jesus the Word. His interpretation is true and trustworthy. Listen to a lot of web, chat and forums and most of what you will get is people full of pride trying to promote themselves not Jesus. If they were walking in the armor of God they would have the sandels of peace on and not be involved in foolish contentions. I sometimes wonder if many of them even attend Church as God instructs us to. Prayer, reading the Word and fellow shipping with the saints are instructions He gives us. Be careful of this internet trap. Anything that distracts you from the truth is not from God.
Hello Hillbilly,
I totally agree with you regarding people getting their information regarding God's word from the internet, YouTube, web-sites and books written by men, that the word of God is the source of all truth and is what should be consulted.
That argument regarding the word "rapture" not appearing in scripture is correct. But, the word that means the same thing "Harpazo" does appear in scripture translated as "caught up." Therefore, the scripture states that the dead will be resurrected and caught up. After that, the living will be transformed into their immortal and glorified bodies and "caught up" with them to meet the Lord in the air. I was never keen on using the word "rapture" but stick with the Greek "harpazo," which means to be "caught up, snatched up, force suddenly exercised." it is the same word that Paul used to describe when he was "caught up" to the third heaven and is the same word used to describe the male child when they are "caught up" to God and His throne. it is also the same word used when Phillip was "caught away" from the Eunuch and found in another city.
We are also told to contend for the true of God's word.
I totally agree with you regarding people getting their information regarding God's word from the internet, YouTube, web-sites and books written by men, that the word of God is the source of all truth and is what should be consulted.
That argument regarding the word "rapture" not appearing in scripture is correct. But, the word that means the same thing "Harpazo" does appear in scripture translated as "caught up." Therefore, the scripture states that the dead will be resurrected and caught up. After that, the living will be transformed into their immortal and glorified bodies and "caught up" with them to meet the Lord in the air. I was never keen on using the word "rapture" but stick with the Greek "harpazo," which means to be "caught up, snatched up, force suddenly exercised." it is the same word that Paul used to describe when he was "caught up" to the third heaven and is the same word used to describe the male child when they are "caught up" to God and His throne. it is also the same word used when Phillip was "caught away" from the Eunuch and found in another city.
We are also told to contend for the true of God's word.
I have never met anyone who denies the rapture/dispensationalist system just because the word isnt in the Bible. I agree wih your views about the internet. There are many sites that have very dubious teachings attached to them. The Bible is the standard we should test everything against, but there is nothing wrong with reading other books. There are many reputable Christian authors around and many people have study Bibles that include notes. People who attend Bible colleges use books as well. Fellowship with other believers is a good and Biblical way to go as long as those who teach are teaching correctly.
The 144 thousand the Word clearly states are from the 12 tribes of Israel. One should always read the Word and not a book about it or some mythical cult bible written by a human. Now you will rant and rave and post more. That's your choice and if you do then I would question whether you even know Jesus and He tells us to treat each other in love. Oh and I very seldom read reply posts so you will be talking to thin air.
So you want to talk to me and want me to reply to thin air?!! i will do neveretheless.
Treating each other with love doesn't mean telling one another lies so that you don't offend the other person. There are no 12 tribes of Israel as we speak and no one is special- everyone overcomes the beast with the blood of the lamb, there's no Jew or gentile but believers.
This is propaganda.
The word first as used in Rev 20:5 shows order of events because close to it they are talking about second death which means that there is a second resurrection. Unlike the word first fruits which only means pleasing to God- the reason you won't see second fruits in the entire bible- so don't confuse.
And when we talk of resurrection of saints, we are not talking about Lord Jesus, just saints. Jesus resurrected with some saints of the OT, i do understand that but then after that we start a new era called the end times where death in Christ means a lot; so in this era, there is the first resurrection Rev 20:5 and the second one Rev 20:12/ Daniel 12.
Quoting Jesus promises of building a house and coming to pick the saints doesn't support you point in anyway, that could happen in the very end even after judgement.
Rev 20:4I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They[SUP]a[/SUP] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years......11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.15Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
You are trying to give it an interpretation but even so, none of them flies to heaven and back to rule with Christ for 1000 years.
Rev 20:4I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They[SUP]a[/SUP] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.
And where are the other saints (the church) that you said went up before tribulation? we only see the ones that died during tribulation rule with christ for 1000 years and they will also judge the rest of the dead with Christ- where is the Church??
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
The word rapture is taken from a latin word. It means to be “caught up” So in the passage you just posted. The word literally says (usingn the latin word) Jesus tells us that we will raptured (caught up)
I agree with the internet stuff. We can find any belief system we want now a days. It keeps us from lookin gin the word itself.. Sadly, I think It will just get worse not better.
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Scripture says that Jesus went to prepare places for all believers and is coming back to take us there:
"My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am."
So, putting the timing of the event aside, at some point the above must take place. The scripture states that Jesus went to the Father's house (heaven) to prepare a place for us and that at some time He is coming back to take us to be with Him (in the Father's house) that where He is, we may be also. Therefore, yes, believers are going to heaven to those dwelling places that the Lord prepared for us.
Once we are in heaven, we will each stand at the Bema seat of Christ to receive rewards or loss of reward. We will also attend the wedding of the Lamb in heaven (Rev.19:6-8). After that, we will return with Christ as He returns to the earth to end the age, following behind Him on white horses.
"Hallelujah!For our Lord God Almighty reigns. Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the
Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready. Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear.”
"The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean."
The group above are the great tribulation saints, those who will have been killed for their testimony of Jesus and the word of God and who will not have worshiped the beast, his image nor received his mark and will be resurrected after Christ returns to the earth to end the age. This group is not the church, but are those described below:
" After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands."
hen one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”
I answered, “Sir, you know.”
And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
The group above are resurrected after Christ returns to the earth to end the age and along with the church and the 144,000, will rule with Christ during His millennial kingdom.
Hi Noose,
The events shown in 1 Cor 15:23-28 explain the time line.
1. First #1 resurrection.....Jesus and all the OT saints 33 ad. (These are the souls seen with Jesus in the Revelation.)
2. Second #2 resurrection.....Heb 9:28 The second coming for salvation, the coming for the kingdom Rev 11:15, this one has not happened yet.
3. Death is destroyed.......This is shown in Rev 20:14.
4. The kingdom/church is delivered up to the Father......The wedding can Only take place After the kingdom is delivered to the father, After death is destroyed.
5. Father is All in All.
This Clearly shows that there are only 2 resurrections.
Any one who goes beyond 2 resurrections is just adding to the scriptures to make a theory fit.
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Rev 20,
The #1 resur. is Jesus
The #2 resur. is yet to come.
Then it is the end..... But for some reason, people don't seem to get this part either. It is the End!
Rev 20:4I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They[SUP]a[/SUP] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years...
These are souls from the first #1 resurrection, when Jesus resurrected. John the Baptist was beheaded and did not take the mark of Rome. They reign over the kingdom/church by their words in the Bible.
...11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.15Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
After death is destroyed the kingdom/church is delivered up to the Father for the wedding. The kingdom/church is Not delivered up before this.
This is also fake news, the only wedding (figurative too) that we expect is this:
Rev 21:1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. 2I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God,prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
The people who came out of tribulations are the church and the people who were shelved from tribulation while still on earth are the 144k believers, there's no special group that was whisked away to be prepared for some secret wedding. God having a house full of rooms has nothing to do with some special believers that are secretly whisked out of the earth.
We know makes up the New Jerusalem.
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You are right, there's only 2 resurrections but people don't understand the sequence.
Jesus and OT saints are different, they resurrect in a different era but usher in a new era, the end times. Jesus suffered and died, so He is the only one worthy to open the seals which represents the tribulation (suffering) of the believers, when these believers suffer and die, they are resurrected (not bodily but their souls only) and they continue judging earth dweller together with the Lord Jesus. In fact, the wrath (7 trumpets and 7 bowls ) are from resurrected believers:
Rev 8: 4And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, rose up before God from the hand of the angel. 5Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and hurled it to the earth; and there were rolls of thunder, and rumblings, and flashes of lightning, and an earthquake.
Rev 6:9And when the Lamb opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld. 10And they cried out in a loud voice,“How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge those who live on the earth” and avenge our blood?11Then each of them was given a white robe and told to rest a little while longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers, were killed, just as they had been killed.
There's no secret group being taken on a heavenly tour, only those that die and those that are shelved from Great tribulation and even from what Jeremiah saw:
Jer 24:1After Jehoiachin[SUP]a[/SUP] son of Jehoiakim king of Judah and the officials, the skilled workers and the artisans of Judah were carried into exile from Jerusalem to Babylon by Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, the Lordshowed me two baskets of figs placed in front of the temple of the Lord. 2One basket had very good figs, like those that ripen early; the other basket had very bad figs, so bad they could not be eaten.3Then the Lord asked me, “What do you see, Jeremiah?”“Figs,” I answered. “The good ones are very good, but the bad ones are so bad they cannot be eaten.”4Then the word of the Lord came to me: 5“This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘Like these good figs, I regard as good the exiles from Judah, whom I sent away from this place to the land of the Babylonians.[SUP]b[/SUP] 6My eyes will watch over them for their good, and I will bring them back to this land. I will build them up and not tear them down; I will plant them and not uproot them. 7I will give them a heart to know me, that I am the Lord. They will be my people, and I will be their God, for they will return to me with all their heart.8“ ‘But like the bad figs, which are so bad they cannot be eaten,’ says the Lord, ‘so will I deal with Zedekiah king of Judah, his officials and the survivors from Jerusalem, whether they remain in this land or live in Egypt. 9I will make them abhorrent and an offense to all the kingdoms of the earth, a reproach and a byword, a curse[SUP]c[/SUP] and an object of ridicule, wherever I banish them. 10I will send the sword, famine and plague against them until they are destroyed from the land I gave to them and their ancestors.’ ”
There were no secret figs that did not go to Babylon. Daniel and his friends represent the 144k faithful believers who are shelved from the tribulation, the rest of the Jews are unfaithful and their faith has to be refined with fire (tribulation)