The Rapture Theory

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
dcontroversal said:
Not harldy.......as a matter of fact it is the only answer that jives with everything when viewed under the fact that the day of the Lord, Christ and God is one day with three applications.....
Click to expand...

What he is saying is, Rev.19:6-8 reveals the bride church as already being in heaven receiving her fine linen at the wedding of the Lamb. Then in verse 14 we see the bride/church following Christ out of heaven wearing her fine linen. If the bride/church is already in heaven and returning with the Lord, then it is obvious that the gathering of the church cannot take place when Christ returns to the earth to end age, because we're already with him riding on white horses. And again, if the church were in view in Matt.24:31, it would mean that she would have gone through all of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments which must take place prior to Christ's return to the earth of which we are exempt.
 
Ahwatukee said:
shrume said:
9) the resurrection of the unjust will happen. This is when every person not previously resurrected will be raised from the dead and judged according to what they have done. This is known as the Great While Throne judgment. Most of these people will be found unworthy of everlasting life, and be thrown into the lake of fire, where they will be destroyed. Some will be given everlasting life, and become immortal. Somewhere in here the Devil and his angels will be thrown into the lake of fire as well, where they will eventually be destroyed (become ashes).
Click to expand...
Well put! I am in agreement with everything except some of #9, as there is nothing in scripture that states that those thrown in the lake of fire become ash. This is everlasting fire, aion and aion and there is no mention of it ending, either for Satan and his angels nor for mankind who follow him. There is just no scripture that demonstrates temporary punishment in the lake of fire.
Click to expand...
The punishment will be permanent. The punishing will end. Fire is not a preservative, it will burn up those thrown into it, including the devil.

Eze 28:
18) Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19) All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

The second death does not mean eternal life in torments. The second death means death, and it will be permanent.
 
The punishment will be permanent. The punishing will end. Fire is not a preservative, it will burn up those thrown into it, including the devil.
Click to expand...

Correct, fire is not a preservative. Satan and his angels are spirit and the fire will not consume them. Those whose names are not written in the book of life will also have resurrected bodies which will be indestructible, but will experience the torment of the flame without burning up. We have scripture stating that this punishment is forever, not temporary. Consider the following:

"And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

In the verse above the same word 'Aionios" is used to describe the final state of both the righteous and the wicked. Since we know that eternal life is never ending life, being conscious and aware for the righteous in the kingdom of God, then eternal punishment must also be never ending, conscious and aware in separation from God in the lake of fire. Whatever meaning you apply to one, must be applied to the other. Therefore, if eternal punishment is temporary, then so also must eternal life be temporary and we know that is not the truth.
 
Ahwatukee said:
Correct, fire is not a preservative. Satan and his angels are spirit and the fire will not consume them.
Click to expand...
Ahwatukee, did you read the scripture I posted?

Eze 28:
18) Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19) All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

Or are you one of those who do not believe Ezekiel 28:12-19 are speaking about Satan?

Those whose names are not written in the book of life will also have resurrected bodies which will be indestructible
Click to expand...
The unsaved will not get indestructible bodies.

but will experience the torment of the flame without burning up.
Click to expand...
No. Again, fire is not a preservative. The lake of fire will burn up those who are thrown into it.

We have scripture stating that this punishment is forever, not temporary. Consider the following:

"And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Click to expand...
As I stated above, the punishMENT will be eternal. The punishING will cease.

In the verse above the same word 'Aionios" is used to describe the final state of both the righteous and the wicked. Since we know that eternal life is never ending life, being conscious and aware for the righteous in the kingdom of God, then eternal punishment must also be never ending, conscious and aware in separation from God in the lake of fire. Whatever meaning you apply to one, must be applied to the other. Therefore, if eternal punishment is temporary, then so also must eternal life be temporary and we know that is not the truth.
Click to expand...
Again, the punishment will be eternal. There will be no coming back from the second death. It will be permanent.

Another thing to consider. How can a just God punish people FOREVER for sins committed during a short 60-80 year life?

He can't. And won't.

And one more time, the wages of sin is death, not eternal life. Death is NOT life.
 
Nehemiah6 said:
Taking Scripture out of context and trying to make Scripture contradict Scripture is more foolishness. The prophets condemned in Ezekiel were CONCOCTING their own prophesies -- "out of their own hearts". But the Resurrection/Rapture doctrine was revealed to Paul by Divine inspiration -- the words of the Holy Spirit. So this is definitely NOT believing man but believing God (which you are failing to do).
Click to expand...

Eze.13 is about false prophets teaching people they will fly away to save there soul, God says he is against those false prophets, read it again or watch the video, please tell where Paul teaches rapture, I hope its not where the question is asked where are the dead. God bless
 
dcontroversal said:
I forgot nothing...the ingathering of the wheat is the snatching away of the saints......
Click to expand...
the wheat and tares are gathered together. Which is not the rapture. (remember,the dead in christ rise first....no tares allowed)

Besides that there is a gathering by Jesus in rev 14 DURING THE GT.

Only pretrib rapture fits the overall picture.
 
Quote by celib;

Jesus did not know the day or the hour because he was created a little lower then the angels to suffer death on the cross Heb.2:9, just like us we only use 9% of our brain, our life in the first world age is erase while we are in the flesh, which brings us to the subject of election.
Everyone knows that satan rebelled in the first world age and was judged and sentenced to perish Ezekiel 28, that is why he is called the son of perdition, what people don't seem to know is every one was judged at the same time, one third of us fought on the side of God and were found to be righteous when Judged Rom.8:29-30, these are the elect they will not be judged again, Gods gift is without repentance, the law does not apply to them but it apply's for all the rest, God will interfere in there lives to bring about his plan of salvation but will not interfere in the lives of people with freewill, one third of Gods children followed satan in the rebellion Rev.12:3-4 and one third just watched, in this world age whoever is not with God is against him Matt.12:30, that is why we are here, rather then destroy 2/3 of his children God said let us make man [flesh] in our image, born innocent free to choose. God bless
Click to expand...

Jesus did not know the day or the hour because he was created a little lower then the angels ....
Click to expand...

Was Jesus created,or is he creator??
Is Jesus God????

I am thinking you are watchtower.
 
shrume said:
The punishment will be permanent. The punishing will end. Fire is not a preservative, it will burn up those thrown into it, including the devil.

Eze 28:
18) Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19) All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

The second death does not mean eternal life in torments. The second death means death, and it will be permanent.
Click to expand...
No,awatukee is correct. They have eternal spirits,so the burn eternally.
 
Nehemiah6 said:
Confusing the Rapture with the Second Coming does not help anyone. So to remind all about the difference.

THE RAPTURE = Christ comes FOR His saints

THE SECOND COMING = Christ comes WITH His saints.

And it is at the second coming that He is visible to the whole world.

For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be...And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (Mt 24:27,30).

Coming in "the clouds of Heaven" speaks of the clouds of saints and angels surrounding Christ at His second coming, when He comes WITH His saints.

And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. (Jude 14,15).
Click to expand...

This saying that the Rapture is Christ coming for his Saints and the second coming is Christ coming with him sounds biblical but it isn't except to those who believe in Soul sleep. Those who believe in a two stage coming of Christ always focus on 'those who are alive' and tend to play down those who are dead. There are millions of righteous dead in Heaven now with Christ. They will return with Christ and receive immortal bodies just as Paul said they would

But we would not have you ignorant brethren, concerning those who are asleep, that you may not grieve
as others do who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so through Jesus God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep.

I Thessalonians 4:13-14 RSV
 
Last edited:
tanakh said:
This saying that the Rapture is Christ coming for his Saints and the second coming is Christ coming with him sounds biblical but it isn't except to those who believe in Soul sleep. Those who believe in a two stage coming of Christ always focus on 'those who are alive' and tend to play down those who are dead. There are millions of righteous dead in Heaven now with Christ. They will return with Christ and receive immortal bodies just as Paul said they would...
Click to expand...
Of course, and that is why I prefer to say the Resurrection/Rapture. But this has nothing to so with the false doctrine of Soul Sleep. All the souls and spirits of the OT saints and those who have died in Christ are presently in Heaven and very much alive, not sleeping some dreamless sleep (Heb 12:22-24).

At the Resurrection/Rapture, these souls and spirits (saints) will accompany Christ and receive their immortal and glorious bodies (1 Cor 15). Immediately thereafter the saints who are alive on earth will also be transformed and glorified, and then all these saints will be caught up together to meet the Lord in the air, and so shall they ever be with the Lord (1 Thess 4).
 
Last edited:
Nehemiah6 said:
Of course, and that is why I prefer to say the Resurrection/Rapture. But this has nothing to so with the false doctrine of Soul Sleep. All the souls and spirits of the OT saints and those who have died in Christ are presently in Heaven and very much alive, not sleeping some dreamless sleep (Heb 12:22-24).

At the Resurrection/Rapture, these souls and spirits (saints) will accompany Christ and receive their immortal and glorious bodies (1 Cor 15). Immediately thereafter the saints who are alive on earth will also be transformed and glorified, and then all these saints will be caught up together to meet the Lord in the air, and so shall they ever be with the Lord (1 Thess 4).
Click to expand...

I am not suggesting that the Soul Sleep doctrine is true. I am suggesting that those who insist on a two stage pre trib rapture give that impression because of the way they describe that rapture . Virtually ignoring this part of Paul's teaching by pushing the coming of the saints to some ''second coming'' which for those who can count is really a third one according to them.
 
Last edited:
shrume said:
The punishment will be permanent. The punishing will end. Fire is not a preservative, it will burn up those thrown into it, including the devil.

Eze 28:
18) Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19) All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

The second death does not mean eternal life in torments. The second death means death, and it will be permanent.
Click to expand...

Hang on, what are you going to do with Mark Chapter 9? Jesus says-

" 43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Don't forget some of the prophecies of the judgement of the adversary are referring to his incarnation as the MAN of sin.
He will somehow possess (pardon the expression) a human. The Beast, man's number. The Antichrist.

As in Isaiah 14 Satan is being judged (" how you have fallen from heaven!") but he is referred to in his human form also in that chapter.

“Is this the man who shook the earth
and made kingdoms tremble."

So of course the human shell of the Antichrist beast will be reduced to ashes. Not so the spirit. I don't think it is possible for a spirit being to be burned to physical ashes.

 
the rapture is not a theory! the word is not mentioned in the Bible but its not a theory in a philosophical sense. its something that will happen to the believers. end of story :D
 
Ahwatukee said:
Well put! I am in agreement with everything except some of #9, as there is nothing in scripture that states that those thrown in the lake of fire become ash. This is everlasting fire, aion and aion and there is no mention of it ending, either for Satan and his angels nor for mankind who follow him. There is just no scripture that demonstrates temporary punishment in the lake of fire.
Click to expand...


Matthew 25:46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."


That verse in blue above is actually a hyperlink! So what did Matthew mean by "eternal punishment?"
 
Inquistor said:
You forgot "CATCH AWAY," which is how the word "rapture" is frequently translated!
Click to expand...

God will send his angels to gather his elects [catch away] they will be gathered to take them to Jerusalem where the millinum temple will be built where Christ will judge with his elects [saints] for a thousand year. God bless
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom
Back