The Rapture?

[watchmen]

You are the one that is in on here making the claims as to who the restrainer is and who it is not. I am not doing it, you are.

Wrong I gave my opinion, and was clear to say The bible doesn;t say who the restrainer is

The burden is on you to give the evidence from the scriptures for your claims.

I have given a biblical response for my opinion, something you refuse to do

My job is to challenge you and the validity of your conclusions. You may not like it, but perhaps it is time you grow up in grace and truth concerning our Lord Jesus Christ.

You need to look in the miorror and challenge your owen man made, anti biblical belief system.

 

[suffersforHim]

Hello everyone! I'm new, this is my first line to type. I'm pro rapture. Can I please enter your debate?

 

[Graybeard]

Hello everyone! I'm new, this is my first line to type. I'm pro rapture. Can I please enter your debate?

of course you can...and welcome!..it is open for everyone

 

[greatkraw]

Hello everyone! I'm new, this is my first line to type. I'm pro rapture. Can I please enter your debate?

only if you are a dispensational premill pretrib OSAS

 

[happynGod]

What, I know u r joking greatkraw. Suffersforhim, of course you can enter this debate. Welcome to Cc

 

[watchmen]

I am what you would call a ''Historical Premillennialist''. It is called the Historical view because it is just that, it is the view of the Apostles and their disciples, it is also the view taught by Jesus and Paul in the scriptures.

The 1st Century Church including the apostles and their immediate disciples believed and taught.........

#1 That the church and the Israel of God are one. I do not believe in ''Replacement theology'' but that we were of 2 made 1 new man as taught in Ephesians 2:11-19 and that we are grafted into the true Israel of God as taught in Romans 11:17-24.

#2 That the just of all ages will be resurrected at the posttrib 2nd coming and that immediately after the resurrection of the just those that have survived the tribulation and remain alive will be caught up or ''raptured'' at that time. That we the dead in Christ and the living saint will receive immortal heavenly bodies at the posttrib 2nd coming as we are caught up to meet the Lord in the air as taught in 1st Cor 15:51-53, Philippians 3:20-21, 1st Thess 4:15-17, and 1st John 3:2

#3 At this point after the resurrection and the rapture Jesus will restore the Jewish nation that have not bowed to the anti christ as taught in Zechariah 12:10, Romans 11:25-26. Then He will purge the wicked by fire as taught in Matthew 3:12 and 2nd Thess 1:6-10. The Jews will enter the Millennium in their mortal bodies and populate it with mortal, while the church or the bride (those resurrected and raptured) will reign with Christ as kings and priests during the Millennium in immortal heavenly bodies as taught in Revelation 20:4-6.

#4 At the end of the Millennium Satan will be loosed from the bottomless pit, he will deceive a great multitude of mortals God will destroy them, then will come the great white throne judgment as taught in Revelation 20:7-15.

#5 After the Great White Throne judgment New Jerusalem will come down from Heaven to the New Earth we will live in the New Jerusalem with God the Father and Jesus Christ for all eternity, while the wicked suffer for all eternity in the Lake of Fire as taught in Revelation 21.

P.S. The Heaven and Earth that exists now will not exists after the White Throne Judgment.



D_C, you should google Historical Premillennialism and study what Polycarp a direct disciple of John the Revelator believed and taught, as well as his disciple who also was a student of John, Irenaeus. Their view is the closest thing we will find as to what John the Revelator actually would have taught himself as He was taught by Christ.


I am going to re-post the above in a separate thread called historical premillennialism

 

[MyBagsRPacked]

I put myself in the historical premillennialist, as well.

I am what you would call a ''Historical Premillennialist''. It is called the Historical view because it is just that, it is the view of the Apostles and their disciples, it is also the view taught by Jesus and Paul in the scriptures.

The 1st Century Church including the apostles and their immediate disciples believed and taught.........

#1 That the church and the Israel of God are one. I do not believe in ''Replacement theology'' but that we were of 2 made 1 new man as taught in Ephesians 2:11-19 and that we are grafted into the true Israel of God as taught in Romans 11:17-24.

#2 That the just of all ages will be resurrected at the posttrib 2nd coming and that immediately after the resurrection of the just those that have survived the tribulation and remain alive will be caught up or ''raptured'' at that time. That we the dead in Christ and the living saint will receive immortal heavenly bodies at the posttrib 2nd coming as we are caught up to meet the Lord in the air as taught in 1st Cor 15:51-53, Philippians 3:20-21, 1st Thess 4:15-17, and 1st John 3:2

#3 At this point after the resurrection and the rapture Jesus will restore the Jewish nation that have not bowed to the anti christ as taught in Zechariah 12:10, Romans 11:25-26. Then He will purge the wicked by fire as taught in Matthew 3:12 and 2nd Thess 1:6-10. The Jews will enter the Millennium in their mortal bodies and populate it with mortal, while the church or the bride (those resurrected and raptured) will reign with Christ as kings and priests during the Millennium in immortal heavenly bodies as taught in Revelation 20:4-6.

#4 At the end of the Millennium Satan will be loosed from the bottomless pit, he will deceive a great multitude of mortals God will destroy them, then will come the great white throne judgment as taught in Revelation 20:7-15.

#5 After the Great White Throne judgment New Jerusalem will come down from Heaven to the New Earth we will live in the New Jerusalem with God the Father and Jesus Christ for all eternity, while the wicked suffer for all eternity in the Lake of Fire as taught in Revelation 21.

P.S. The Heaven and Earth that exists now will not exists after the White Throne Judgment.



D_C, you should google Historical Premillennialism and study what Polycarp a direct disciple of John the Revelator believed and taught, as well as his disciple who also was a student of John, Irenaeus. Their view is the closest thing we will find as to what John the Revelator actually would have taught himself as He was taught by Christ.


I am going to re-post the above in a separate thread called historical premillennialism

 

[watchmen]

I put myself in the historical premillennialist, as well.

Awesome!!! Glad to see there are others that know the truth.

 

[shad]

I am what you would call a ''Historical Premillennialist''. It is called the Historical view because it is just that, it is the view of the Apostles and their disciples, it is also the view taught by Jesus and Paul in the scriptures.

The 1st Century Church including the apostles and their immediate disciples believed and taught.........

#1 That the church and the Israel of God are one. I do not believe in ''Replacement theology'' but that we were of 2 made 1 new man as taught in Ephesians 2:11-19 and that we are grafted into the true Israel of God as taught in Romans 11:17-24.

#2 That the just of all ages will be resurrected at the posttrib 2nd coming and that immediately after the resurrection of the just those that have survived the tribulation and remain alive will be caught up or ''raptured'' at that time. That we the dead in Christ and the living saint will receive immortal heavenly bodies at the posttrib 2nd coming as we are caught up to meet the Lord in the air as taught in 1st Cor 15:51-53, Philippians 3:20-21, 1st Thess 4:15-17, and 1st John 3:2

#3 At this point after the resurrection and the rapture Jesus will restore the Jewish nation that have not bowed to the anti christ as taught in Zechariah 12:10, Romans 11:25-26. Then He will purge the wicked by fire as taught in Matthew 3:12 and 2nd Thess 1:6-10. The Jews will enter the Millennium in their mortal bodies and populate it with mortal, while the church or the bride (those resurrected and raptured) will reign with Christ as kings and priests during the Millennium in immortal heavenly bodies as taught in Revelation 20:4-6.

#4 At the end of the Millennium Satan will be loosed from the bottomless pit, he will deceive a great multitude of mortals God will destroy them, then will come the great white throne judgment as taught in Revelation 20:7-15.

#5 After the Great White Throne judgment New Jerusalem will come down from Heaven to the New Earth we will live in the New Jerusalem with God the Father and Jesus Christ for all eternity, while the wicked suffer for all eternity in the Lake of Fire as taught in Revelation 21.

You can quote and give all the verses you want, but you misapply them so that you can convince others of the truth that you ascribe to. You apply all of these passages to a post-trib context because you refuse to apply them to a pre-trib context. You do not distinguish between Israel and the church to discredit the work of God through dispensations. By doing that you have proved nothing nor have you arrived at the truth that you so desperately want to convey. Do you think that those that ascribe some of the same passages to a pre-trib context do not understand the second coming of Christ that takes place at the consummation of the tribulation period? You have failed to understand the mystery of Christ and the church / Eph 5:32 and in doing so you have erred considerably.

Not once have you considered that mystery nor why it was hidden and revealed to Paul and how it applies to future events. You ignore what God has promised in not appointing the church unto wrath / 1Thes 5:9, then rationalize some explanation why the church will not be touched by the wrath of God in the tribulation period. All the while you know that the scriptures testify that only 144, 000 (12,000 from each tribe of Israel) will be sealed from the wrath of the Lamb/ Rev 6. The church is not in that number, so what has happened to them? Have they all been killed by the Antichrist, the beast and the false prophet or has God protected them in some other way? Did they get raptured just before the wrath of God came to the earth at the end of the tribulation, if so, where in scripture are we be convinced of that? If you think that the woman in Rev 12 is the church, explain why.

With your error and misapplication of God's word, you cause believers to prepare for a tribulation period that they were never appointed to. Instead of encouraging them to look for God's mercy and their redemption, you make them fear for their life and their family and for their own salvation through apostasy.

 

[watchmen]

You can quote and give all the verses you want, but you misapply them so that you can convince others of the truth that you ascribe to. You apply all of these passages to a post-trib context because you refuse to apply them to a pre-trib context. You do not distinguish between Israel and the church to discredit the work of God through dispensations. By doing that you have proved nothing nor have you arrived at the truth that you so desperately want to convey. Do you think that those that ascribe some of the same passages to a pre-trib context do not understand the second coming of Christ that takes place at the consummation of the tribulation period? You have failed to understand the mystery of Christ and the church / Eph 5:32 and in doing so you have erred considerably.

The error is yours, dispensationalism itself is false and is the root of the false teaching of the pretrib rapture. I do not misapply these verses but accept them as they were meant to be understood. It is the pretribber that much misapply, ignore, twist, and pervert scripture to come to their erroneous conclusions.

Not once have you considered that mystery nor why it was hidden and revealed to Paul and how it applies to future events. You ignore what God has promised in not appointing the church unto wrath / 1Thes 5:9, then rationalize some explanation why the church will not be touched by the wrath of God in the tribulation period. All the while you know that the scriptures testify that only 144, 000 (12,000 from each tribe of Israel) will be sealed from the wrath of the Lamb/ Rev 6. The church is not in that number, so what has happened to them? Have they all been killed by the Antichrist, the beast and the false prophet or has God protected them in some other way? Did they get raptured just before the wrath of God came to the earth at the end of the tribulation, if so, where in scripture are we be convinced of that? If you think that the woman in Rev 12 is the church, explain why.

I have look and considered every aspect of the pretrib rapture and found it to be lacking scriptural integrity. The church is promised to be protected from the wrath of the Lamb, and we will be, but that does not necessitate our removal from the earth. The 144,000 will be sealed when they receive Christ during the Tribulation. I need not be sealed then for I have already been sealed when I got saved.

With your error and misapplication of God's word, you cause believers to prepare for a tribulation period that they were never appointed to. Instead of encouraging them to look for God's mercy and their redemption, you make them fear for their life and their family and for their own salvation through apostasy.

Like I said the error is yours, and anyone honest with themselves who holds to the integrity of the text knows it. And yes I am blowing the trumpet to warn God's children to prepare for the great tribulation (which is not the same as the wrath of God as pretribbers would claim) and also be encouraged for God is merciful and your redeemer.
Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.



God has told me to blow the trumpet and I will continue to teach God truth warning His children no matter how much Satan or yourself would like me to stop.
Ezekiel 33
1 Again the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
2 Son of man, speak to the children of thy people, and say unto them, When I bring the sword upon a land, if the people of the land take a man of their coasts, and set him for their watchman:
3 If when he seeth the sword come upon the land, he blow the trumpet, and warn the people;
4 Then whosoever heareth the sound of the trumpet, and taketh not warning; if the sword come, and take him away, his blood shall be upon his own head.
5 He heard the sound of the trumpet, and took not warning; his blood shall be upon him. But he that taketh warning shall deliver his soul.
6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.
7 So thou, O son of man, I have set thee a watchman unto the house of Israel; therefore thou shalt hear the word at my mouth, and warn them from me.

 

[shad]

I have look and considered every aspect of the pretrib rapture and found it to be lacking scriptural integrity. The church is promised to be protected from the wrath of the Lamb, and we will be, but that does not necessitate our removal from the earth. The 144,000 will be sealed when they receive Christ during the Tribulation. I need not be sealed then for I have already been sealed when I got saved.

You are contradicting your own belief about eternal security and God's eternal salvation that has been promised and sealed through the earnest of our inheritance which is the Holy Spirit / Eph 1:13,14.

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

These two things you do not understanding and have not considered which are vital for every believer to know and understand. The word for seal in Eph 1:13, 4:30 and Rev 7:2,3 is sphragizo (verb)~ to set a mark or seal upon. This seal denotes three things; 1~ security of ownership, 2~ protection 3~ a finished transaction that does not need to be repeated. This seal that comes from God is the earnest of our inheritance. The word earnest is arrabon (noun)~ which is caution money that is deposited by the purchaser in pledge of full payment.

It all means that when we believed upon Christ we became God's purchased possession secured by the eternal blood of Christ and justified freely. We are protected from wrath, condemnation and everything that tries to separates us from the one who purchased us (even if it's a stupid doctrine like losing your salvation) and set us apart unto Himself. The beautiful thing is that God has sealed us by giving us His Holy Spirit as a down payment (in earnest) that will be with us right on through until the day of redemption when we will be glorified with our new bodies before His presence. This has been set in motion as a work of grace and it can not be stopped, revoked or disannulled / Phil 1:6 and is our inheritance in Christ.

Watchmen, I know you don't believe all that even though it is scriptual, but you would be much happier if you did, because that's the truth. Grace and truth will always give you joy and set you free from the constant fear and striving that's in your life that did not come from God.

 

[watchmen]

You are contradicting your own belief about eternal security and God's eternal salvation that has been promised and sealed through the earnest of our inheritance which is the Holy Spirit / Eph 1:13,14.

Because you cannot comprehend a particular subject doesn't mean that i have contradicted anything.


No back to the rapture. It is after the tribulation per God's word.

 

[watchmen]

Watchmen, I know you don't believe all that even though it is scriptual, but you would be much happier if you did, because that's the truth. Grace and truth will always give you joy and set you free from the constant fear and striving that's in your life that did not come from God.

Firstly this is not a OSAS thread. Further more I do not live in fear striving, but have simply given my life over to Christ, letting Him live through me. I guarantee you i would not be happier living in sin thinking I am saved. Jesus Christ has freed me from self and sin why would I even want to turn back. Good grief you are lost.


Once again, back to the rapture. It is after the tribulation per God's word.

 

[shad]

Because you cannot comprehend a particular subject doesn't mean that i have contradicted anything.


No back to the rapture. It is after the tribulation per God's word.

Don't you like what God's word says about the seal? This is the seal that is referred to in Rev 7:2,3 that is part of Israel's salvation that keeps them from the hurt coming upon the earth, that you claim the church will be part of. You are stuck in your belief that the church has to go through the tribulation because you believe that the 'rapture ' is at the end of the tribulation period. If you believed one and rejected the other you would be contradicting yourself.

Those that apply the scriptures as a promise concerning the church not being appointed to wrath, they don't have to concern themself about the time of the 'rapture' or have to be fooled into preparing for the tribulation period. The yoke is easy and the burden is light. We have been redeemed from the curse of the law and the wrath to come and simply wait for the return of Christ. The second coming is after the tribulation and we will be coming with Christ to the earth as His bride for a 1000 year honeymoon.

We get 'raptured' before the tribulation of God's wrath, we are judged for our works, we receive our glorified bodies, come back to earth with Christ at the second coming and reign with Him for 1000 years. This is all by grace and the promise of God. To teach that you can lose your salvation and to try and persuade believers they will have to go through the tribulation, neither one of them is by promise nor by grace and should be rejected because the Holy Spirit would never witness those things as being of the truth.

 

[MyBagsRPacked]

Hey watchmen! A verse to share with you, my friend

Wisdom resteth in the heart of him that hath understanding: but that which is in the midst of fools is made known.
Proverbs 14:33

Be of Good spirit, you are never alone

 

[MyBagsRPacked]

A little edjumication never hurt anyone...

For our example we will choose the important verb in 1 Thessalonians 4:17—"caught up." In the Latin Bible this is the verb "rapturÇ" from which we derive our English word "rapture." Thus this word study will shed important light on the true meaning of the term "rapture." This verse which we have selected is our "target passage." We want to determine the meaning of this particular verb especially as it is used here in this verse.
The fundamental principle for doing word studies is this: USAGE DETERMINES MEANING. Sir Robert Anderson has stated it well: "In dealing with a dead language, etymology (the origin or history of a word) may sometimes afford a clue to the meaning of a word, but the only safe and certain guide to its meaning is its use." Since usage determines meaning, we must see how our verb in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 (HARPAZÆ, αρπάζω) is used elsewhere in the New Testament and hopefully this will shed light on its meaning in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 which is our target passage.

With the help of a concordance you will find that in addition to 1 Thess. 4:17, the verb HARPAZŌ occurs in 12 other places in the N.T.

Matt. 11:12-- take​

​

John 10:28-- pluck​

​

2 Cor. 12:2-- caught up​

​

Matt. 13:19-- catcheth away​

​

John 10:29-- pluck​

​

2 Cor. 12:4-- caught up​

​

John 6:15-- take by force​

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Acts 8:39-- caught away​

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Jude 23-- pulling​

​

John 10:12-- catcheth​

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Acts 23:10-- take by force​

​

Rev. 12:15-- caught up​

​

Note: The New Testament was written in Greek and the Old Testament in Hebrew (with the exception of a few Aramaic passages). Since the Greek verb we are studying is in the New Testament, we need not consult the Old Testament because God did not use the Greek language when He gave the O.T. The ambitious student, however, could study how the verb is used in the Septuagint which is an ancient Greek translation of the Old Testament, as long as he keeps in mind that the Septuagint is a translation, and is not the original text God gave
​

Note: The ambitious student could also study the verb HARPAZŌ as it is found in the Septuagint. The book A Concordance of the Septuagint (Bagster) reveals that this verb is found in the following places in the Septuagint (ancient Greek translation of the Old Testament): Gen. 37:33; Lev. 6:4; 19:13; Deut. 28:31; Jud. 21:21,23; 2 Sam. 23:31; Job 20:19; 24:2,9,19; Psalm 7:3; 9:30 (twice); 21:14; 49:22; 68:5; 103:21; Isa. 10:2; Ezekiel 18:7,12,16,18; 19:3,6; 22:25,27; Hos. 5:14; 6:1; Amos 1:11; 3:4; Micah 3:2; 5:8; Nahum 2:12

As used in the New Testament, the verb HARPAZŌ means “to take, take by force, snatch, snatch up, grab, remove quickly, catch up, catch away, pluck out.” It always involves some force outside the person (or thing) acting upon it and causing the person (or thing) to be taken or snatched up or removed. It often implies sudden removal and it often refers to a person being quickly (a.” Just as Philip was supernaturally and quickly caught away from one place to another (Acts 8:39), just as the Lord was supernaturally caught up to heaven at the time of the ascension (Rev. 12:5), just as Paul was supernaturally taken to the third heaven (2 Cor. 12:2,4), so it will be that living believers at the coming of the Lord Jesus will be supernaturally caught up and suddenly removed from earth to heaven. It also implies “sudden disappearance” (Acts 8:39 and compare Hebrews 11:5).nd supernaturally) taken from one place to another.
Lexicon or DictionaryThe Meaning of the Word in GeneralThe Meaning of the Word in 1 Thess. 4:17Arndt & Gingrichsnatch, seize, take suddenly, carry off, snatch or take awaysnatch or take away (in such a way that no resistance is offered)Thayerseize, carry off by force, snatch out or away, to seize and carry off speedilyused of divine power transferring a person marvelously and swiftly from one place to another: "to snatch or catch away"Vineto snatch or catch awayused of the rapture of the saints at the return of the LordBullingerto snatch away, to carry off (suddenly and by force)to snatch away, to carry off (suddenly and by force)Kittleto take something forcefully, often with the thought of speed, snatchto catch up or away, expressing the mighty operation of God

 

[greatkraw]

Don't you like what God's word says about the seal? This is the seal that is referred to in Rev 7:2,3 that is part of Israel's salvation that keeps them from the hurt coming upon the earth, that you claim the church will be part of. You are stuck in your belief that the church has to go through the tribulation because you believe that the 'rapture ' is at the end of the tribulation period. If you believed one and rejected the other you would be contradicting yourself.

Those that apply the scriptures as a promise concerning the church not being appointed to wrath, they don't have to concern themself about the time of the 'rapture' or have to be fooled into preparing for the tribulation period. The yoke is easy and the burden is light. We have been redeemed from the curse of the law and the wrath to come and simply wait for the return of Christ. The second coming is after the tribulation and we will be coming with Christ to the earth as His bride for a 1000 year honeymoon.

We get 'raptured' before the tribulation of God's wrath, we are judged for our works, we receive our glorified bodies, come back to earth with Christ at the second coming and reign with Him for 1000 years. This is all by grace and the promise of God. To teach that you can lose your salvation and to try and persuade believers they will have to go through the tribulation, neither one of them is by promise nor by grace and should be rejected because the Holy Spirit would never witness those things as being of the truth.

Shad nailed it.

 

[watchmen]

Shad nailed it.

Yep, he sure has the false pretrib teaching down pat. He would do a good job at indoctrinating the simple.