The Real Christmas story
- Thread starter Blain
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
B
Read Deuteronomy 12.
God states to the children of Israel that basically when they would conquer a land, to not go after that land's ways. It also states not to take their ways and use as a way to worship God.
If God is a never changing God I would assume He would still want this, He would want to be worshiped and observed the way He wants to. He doesn't want to be worshiped in a same or similar manner as the pagans worshiped their false idols.
The Catholic Church instilled a lot of pagan beliefs into Christianity to convert more pagans. If you look at history in how Catholicism was formed, it was formed for a governmental stance and not just religious because the Roman empire at the time was starting to collapse so they needed a way to gain control and run the masses. Pagans weren't going to just give up their beliefs, so they took those beliefs and turned into a way to glorify God, which again is against what God stands for.
God states to the children of Israel that basically when they would conquer a land, to not go after that land's ways. It also states not to take their ways and use as a way to worship God.
If God is a never changing God I would assume He would still want this, He would want to be worshiped and observed the way He wants to. He doesn't want to be worshiped in a same or similar manner as the pagans worshiped their false idols.
The Catholic Church instilled a lot of pagan beliefs into Christianity to convert more pagans. If you look at history in how Catholicism was formed, it was formed for a governmental stance and not just religious because the Roman empire at the time was starting to collapse so they needed a way to gain control and run the masses. Pagans weren't going to just give up their beliefs, so they took those beliefs and turned into a way to glorify God, which again is against what God stands for.
Re: The Real Christmas story (the REAL Christmas story)
If you ask most people what you have to do to get into heaven (assuming they believe in heaven or an afterlife), the overwhelming response will be some form of “being a good person.” Most, if not all, religions and worldly philosophies are ethically based. Whether it’s Islam, Hinduism, or secular humanism, the teaching is common that getting to heaven is a matter of being a good person
Why is being a good person not enough to get you into heaven? Because no one is a “good” person; there is only one who is good, and that is God Himself. The Bible says that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. The Bible also says that the wages of our sin is death.
Fortunately, God did not wait until we somehow learned to be “good”; while we were in our sinful state, Christ died for the unrighteous
Your cult like many other cults focuses on “good works” and misses the point and this is evident from the quote above
I am not a Catholic so what you’ve written up there is just pointless. Catholicism is very important from the "historical" point of view. However I am not defending Catholicism or any other denomination. I am defending Christianity
It’s surprising that you think that I don’t know much about your organization. Have you read my huge post above?
It’s pointless to give references to any publications that are absolutely filled with errors. A member of Islamic organization ISIS can also give references to their publications. Are you going to believe those?
Look, you are in a horrible cult but you are not aware of it
Some cults are very stupid. They don’t last for very long. They just kill each other. For example the “Heaven’s Gate” made the headlines in March of 1997 when 39 members of the organisation killed themselves. Or take for example the SECT of Jim Jones where over 900 members drank poison mixed with Flavor Aid in a mass suicide. These are just so stupid. They don’t last for very long. But other cults such as Mormons or Jehovah’s witnesses are much smarter - they are much more peaceful and so they last for longer. HOWEVER many Jehovah’s Witnesses did die because Watchtower used to forbid any vaccinations or organ transplants, even to save lives and so many people did die in hospitals. Also many Mormons died for example in Mountain Meadows massacre for example
Now let me give you just one example of why your version of the bible is flawed
Let’s go through Isa 9:6 with me. Here is the verse
Isaiah 9:6: For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
Well, most Christians understand this verse to be a prophecy about the coming Messiah. Jesus is here referred to as “Mighty God.” The JW say that comparative language is used here: Jesus is a “mighty god,” but Jehovah is described as “Almighty God” elsewhere and, therefore, is more powerful (ie. Jesus is mighty, while God is almighty).
Jehovah’s Witnesses may then further note that Jesus is never referred to as “Almighty God.”
However, the Watchtower interpretation of Isaiah 9:6 is incorrect.
While in English the words may be taken in a comparative manner, the original Hebrew is not at all comparative.
Almighty God is the Hebrew “El Shaddai”. The exact meaning of this word is uncertain. Most often it is linked to mountains and therefore can mean “God of the mountain.” The idea behind the root of this word in Hebrew seems to be that of impelling force, hence, the sovereign, “Almighty God.”
Mighty God is the Hebrew “El Gibbor”, and can be translated “God, the hero or champion among the army.” This word basically means a God who is mighty or superior, strong, brave, valiant, a hero.
These two Hebrew words have different, unrelated meanings. “Mighty God” does not stand inferior to “Almighty God” as the term “strong” stands inferior to “strongest.” They are unrelated terms, as in “brilliant” and “strong.”
More problematic to the Watchtower interpretation of the words “almighty” versus “mighty” is the fact that God is called El Gibbor (Mighty God) just one chapter later in Isaiah 10:20-21! Here is that passage
Isaiah 10: 20 And it shall come to pass in that day That the remnant of Israel, And such as have escaped of the house of Jacob, Will never again depend on him who defeated them, But will depend on the Lord, the Holy One of Israel, in truth. 21 The remnant will return, the remnant of Jacob, To the Mighty God.
Also in Jeremiah 32:17-18 and Deuteronomy 10:17, the Father is referred to as the “Mighty God” (El Gibbor).
Here is the first verse
Jeremiah 32:17-18 'Ah, Lord God! Behold, You have made the heavens and the earth by Your great power and outstretched arm. There is nothing too hard for You. You show lovingkindness to thousands, and repay the iniquity of the fathers into the bosom of their children after them--the Great, the Mighty God, whose name is the Lord of hosts.
Here is another one
Deuteronomy 10:17 For the Lord your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality nor takes a bribe.
Notice that in these two passages above Father is Mighty God (El Gibbor).
Therefore, Isaiah 9:6 clearly refers to Jesus as God.
Bottom Line: Isaiah calls Jesus, “God.” The Watchtower’s attempts to explain this by claiming “mighty God” is less than “almighty God” reveals a lack of knowledge of the Hebrew language because the words “mighty” and “almighty” are not comparative in meaning, and Isaiah calls the Father “mighty God” one chapter later.
You are in a horrible CULT and you are brainwashed by a horrible CULT and you distribute magazines on the streets which are full of lies but you are not aware that you are in a CULT
If you ask most people what you have to do to get into heaven (assuming they believe in heaven or an afterlife), the overwhelming response will be some form of “being a good person.” Most, if not all, religions and worldly philosophies are ethically based. Whether it’s Islam, Hinduism, or secular humanism, the teaching is common that getting to heaven is a matter of being a good person
Why is being a good person not enough to get you into heaven? Because no one is a “good” person; there is only one who is good, and that is God Himself. The Bible says that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. The Bible also says that the wages of our sin is death.
Fortunately, God did not wait until we somehow learned to be “good”; while we were in our sinful state, Christ died for the unrighteous
Your cult like many other cults focuses on “good works” and misses the point and this is evident from the quote above
I am not a Catholic so what you’ve written up there is just pointless. Catholicism is very important from the "historical" point of view. However I am not defending Catholicism or any other denomination. I am defending Christianity
It’s surprising that you think that I don’t know much about your organization. Have you read my huge post above?
It’s pointless to give references to any publications that are absolutely filled with errors. A member of Islamic organization ISIS can also give references to their publications. Are you going to believe those?
Look, you are in a horrible cult but you are not aware of it
Some cults are very stupid. They don’t last for very long. They just kill each other. For example the “Heaven’s Gate” made the headlines in March of 1997 when 39 members of the organisation killed themselves. Or take for example the SECT of Jim Jones where over 900 members drank poison mixed with Flavor Aid in a mass suicide. These are just so stupid. They don’t last for very long. But other cults such as Mormons or Jehovah’s witnesses are much smarter - they are much more peaceful and so they last for longer. HOWEVER many Jehovah’s Witnesses did die because Watchtower used to forbid any vaccinations or organ transplants, even to save lives and so many people did die in hospitals. Also many Mormons died for example in Mountain Meadows massacre for example
Now let me give you just one example of why your version of the bible is flawed
Let’s go through Isa 9:6 with me. Here is the verse
Isaiah 9:6: For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
Well, most Christians understand this verse to be a prophecy about the coming Messiah. Jesus is here referred to as “Mighty God.” The JW say that comparative language is used here: Jesus is a “mighty god,” but Jehovah is described as “Almighty God” elsewhere and, therefore, is more powerful (ie. Jesus is mighty, while God is almighty).
Jehovah’s Witnesses may then further note that Jesus is never referred to as “Almighty God.”
However, the Watchtower interpretation of Isaiah 9:6 is incorrect.
While in English the words may be taken in a comparative manner, the original Hebrew is not at all comparative.
Almighty God is the Hebrew “El Shaddai”. The exact meaning of this word is uncertain. Most often it is linked to mountains and therefore can mean “God of the mountain.” The idea behind the root of this word in Hebrew seems to be that of impelling force, hence, the sovereign, “Almighty God.”
Mighty God is the Hebrew “El Gibbor”, and can be translated “God, the hero or champion among the army.” This word basically means a God who is mighty or superior, strong, brave, valiant, a hero.
These two Hebrew words have different, unrelated meanings. “Mighty God” does not stand inferior to “Almighty God” as the term “strong” stands inferior to “strongest.” They are unrelated terms, as in “brilliant” and “strong.”
More problematic to the Watchtower interpretation of the words “almighty” versus “mighty” is the fact that God is called El Gibbor (Mighty God) just one chapter later in Isaiah 10:20-21! Here is that passage
Isaiah 10: 20 And it shall come to pass in that day That the remnant of Israel, And such as have escaped of the house of Jacob, Will never again depend on him who defeated them, But will depend on the Lord, the Holy One of Israel, in truth. 21 The remnant will return, the remnant of Jacob, To the Mighty God.
Also in Jeremiah 32:17-18 and Deuteronomy 10:17, the Father is referred to as the “Mighty God” (El Gibbor).
Here is the first verse
Jeremiah 32:17-18 'Ah, Lord God! Behold, You have made the heavens and the earth by Your great power and outstretched arm. There is nothing too hard for You. You show lovingkindness to thousands, and repay the iniquity of the fathers into the bosom of their children after them--the Great, the Mighty God, whose name is the Lord of hosts.
Here is another one
Deuteronomy 10:17 For the Lord your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality nor takes a bribe.
Notice that in these two passages above Father is Mighty God (El Gibbor).
Therefore, Isaiah 9:6 clearly refers to Jesus as God.
Bottom Line: Isaiah calls Jesus, “God.” The Watchtower’s attempts to explain this by claiming “mighty God” is less than “almighty God” reveals a lack of knowledge of the Hebrew language because the words “mighty” and “almighty” are not comparative in meaning, and Isaiah calls the Father “mighty God” one chapter later.
You are in a horrible CULT and you are brainwashed by a horrible CULT and you distribute magazines on the streets which are full of lies but you are not aware that you are in a CULT
Let’s take England as an example. In UK there are lots of non-believers and believers. On 25[SUP]th[/SUP] of December both of them will be celebrating Christmas. However the true believers might be in church singing hymns and songs of worship while the non-believers will be having turkey with paper crowns and crackers.
I hope you can see that true believers do not “go after that land’s ways” as you said
Basically what happened is that the Catholic Church replaced pagan activity with Christian activity.
It’s very similar to what Paul did in Athens
If you recall Paul arrived in Athens, the citadel of the many Greek gods. In that city was the Areopagus, owhere a council of civic leaders met. This council, also called the Areopagus, had charge of religious and educational matters in Athens.
Hearing Paul teach about Jesus, the philosophers had Paul come to the Areopagus and asked him to tell them about this “new,” strange teaching he was proclaiming. Standing in the midst of the Areopagus, Paul tells those gathered that he realized Athenians were very religious, having seen their many objects of worship. But one altar among the many caught his attention. On it were inscribed the words “TO AN UNKNOWN GOD.” In their ignorance, the Greeks had erected an altar to whatever god they might have inadvertently left out of their pantheon. Paul masterfully uses this altar as an opportunity to share the one true God.
Well, just like Paul, the Catholic Church replaced the unknown gods with true God. Unfortunately the replacement wasn't entirely successful as new god (Santa Claus) emerged as the result of it
I hope you can see that true believers do not “go after that land’s ways” as you said
Basically what happened is that the Catholic Church replaced pagan activity with Christian activity.
It’s very similar to what Paul did in Athens
If you recall Paul arrived in Athens, the citadel of the many Greek gods. In that city was the Areopagus, owhere a council of civic leaders met. This council, also called the Areopagus, had charge of religious and educational matters in Athens.
Hearing Paul teach about Jesus, the philosophers had Paul come to the Areopagus and asked him to tell them about this “new,” strange teaching he was proclaiming. Standing in the midst of the Areopagus, Paul tells those gathered that he realized Athenians were very religious, having seen their many objects of worship. But one altar among the many caught his attention. On it were inscribed the words “TO AN UNKNOWN GOD.” In their ignorance, the Greeks had erected an altar to whatever god they might have inadvertently left out of their pantheon. Paul masterfully uses this altar as an opportunity to share the one true God.
Well, just like Paul, the Catholic Church replaced the unknown gods with true God. Unfortunately the replacement wasn't entirely successful as new god (Santa Claus) emerged as the result of it
Well some people say that the Bible forbids bringing trees into our homes and decorating them. The passage often cited is Jeremiah 10:1-16, but this passage refers to cutting down trees, chiseling the wood to make an idol, and then decorating the idol with silver and gold for the purpose of bowing down before it to worship it (see also Isaiah 44:9-18). The passage in Jeremiah cannot be taken out of its context and used to make a legitimate argument against Christmas trees
Re: The Real Christmas story (the REAL Christmas story)
Some Christians say that since the world celebrates Christmas—although it is becoming more and more politically correct to refer to it as “the holidays”—Christians should avoid it. But that is the same argument made by false religions that deny Christ altogether, as well as cults such as the Jehovah’s Witnesses who deny His deity. Those Christians who do celebrate Christmas often see the occasion as an opportunity to proclaim Christ as “the reason for the season” among the nations and to those trapped in false religions.
Some Christians say that since the world celebrates Christmas—although it is becoming more and more politically correct to refer to it as “the holidays”—Christians should avoid it. But that is the same argument made by false religions that deny Christ altogether, as well as cults such as the Jehovah’s Witnesses who deny His deity. Those Christians who do celebrate Christmas often see the occasion as an opportunity to proclaim Christ as “the reason for the season” among the nations and to those trapped in false religions.
One argument against Christmas is that the traditions surrounding the holiday have origins in paganism. Searching for reliable information on this topic is difficult because the origins of many of our traditions are so obscure that sources often contradict one another. Bells, candles, holly, and yuletide decorations are mentioned in the history of pagan worship, but the use of such in one’s home certainly does not indicate a return to paganism. While there are definitely pagan roots to some traditions, there are many more traditions associated with the true meaning of Christmas—the birth of the Savior of the world in Bethlehem. Bells are played to ring out the joyous news, candles are lit to remind us that Christ is the Light of the world (John 1:4-9), a star is placed on the top of a Christmas tree to remember the Star of Bethlehem, and gifts are exchanged to remind us of the gifts of the Magi to Jesus, the greatest gift of God to mankind.
I believe Christmas is supposed to be a joyful confession of the unique event that happened in history: the incarnation of the second Person of the Holy Trinity (which was planned before the creation of the world). I never understood that on Christmas I celebrate 2000 and something years of the birth of Jesus Christ (in the same way people do with their birthdays). I understood that I celebrate and confess Jesus Christ as God.
K
It is not wrong to discuss Christ's birth, the bible does. And I think Christmas is a nice welcome mat to the discussion of why He was born, and what that means for us. It is not wrong to celebrate Christ. I don't think He was born in the winter because the sheep were out to graze on grass, and the shepherds were laying in the field. Any day is a good day to celebrate Gods gift to us.
I do not lie to children about Santa Claus, and I see they enjoy it just as much as a story as they do a truth, so the lie is not even necessary. The beautiful lights in a dark world remind me of Christians. Christmas is an earthly holiday and not a command, but things are not wrong just because it is done on the earth, unless sin is involved. So, if you worship your Christmas tree, then I guess it's wrong for you.
I do not lie to children about Santa Claus, and I see they enjoy it just as much as a story as they do a truth, so the lie is not even necessary. The beautiful lights in a dark world remind me of Christians. Christmas is an earthly holiday and not a command, but things are not wrong just because it is done on the earth, unless sin is involved. So, if you worship your Christmas tree, then I guess it's wrong for you.
For the record I am not a part of the cult of Jehovah's Witness. I have studied Christmas and Easter extensively based on the bible and customs of the areas of the time. I think a very important thing to understand for Christians, is that it really doesn't matter what things mean to us. As the bible tells us, seek that which is pleasing to God. Let's find out what God has to say about anything despite traditions that have been built up. Let us not forget, 1000+ years of tradition in error is still error.
Christmas or Christ mass was never celebrated by the early church as it was a Roman Catholic invention (mass gives it away right?). Let's look at the facts.
Is God today the same as God was yesterday and the same as God will be tomorrow? Yes.
Someone brought up a good example from the OT where God instructed the Israelites when they went into a land where God told them to go, that they should utterly destroy everything and not inquire as to the ways these people worshiped their gods. Why? Because God gives His people the way He wants us to worship Him. To God, for His people to imitate the ways these people worshiped their false gods was tantamount to spiritual infidelity. Why then does the bible say God is a jealous God? As the Church is the bride of Christ and Israel was God's first "wife" essentially, then why wouldn't a husband be jealous when His wife goes after strange men? Is she not supposed to remain faithful to her husband? This is why God told the Israelites not to even learn their ways or worship Him in those ways... the ways where the people sent their babies through the flames, engaged in carnal celebrations, etc.
The traditions and practices of Christmas are steeped in sun god worship. Easter is steeped in fertility worship. It wasn't until the Catholic Church "syncretized" these pagan days into the worship of their Jesus did these practices become widespread. And as the reformers "reformed" the Church instead of wiping the slate clean, these practices filtered back into the church once again.
If we analyze the advent story, we notice that shepherds were abiding by their flocks by night. If you look at December nights in Jerusalem, you will notice that they are bitterly cold and oftentimes snowy. What shepherd would abide by their flocks by night in this weather? They wouldn't. This would cause their flocks to die. In addition, we know for a fact that the bible does not tell us how many wise men visited Jesus. We just know there are three gifts. In addition, the bible tells us that after Jesus was born, the wise men came from the east to give the gifts of gold, frankincense and myrrh which according to the customs of the middle east/babylonians represented a funeral annointing for a king, thus negating the "birthday present" aspect of Christ's birth. The angels were rejoicing for prophecy fulfilled in the birth of Christ, not specifically His birth. Furthermore, the bible then tells us that the wise men met the "young boy" in the house, which automatically discounts any nativity scene showing "three" wise men at a manger. (Also some show a female angel, when there are no female angels in Bible canon (Deuterocanon/Apocrypha are not canon or inspired scripture)).
If we study the service of John the Baptist's father's service as a levite in the order of Abijah, we know that right after his service was done, he "knew" his wife and John the Baptist was conceived. 6 months later, Gabriel visited Mary and shortly after she conceived Jesus by the Holy Spirit. Based on when the levitical service of Abijah is, we can add 6 months for the conception of Christ, and then 9 more months for the Birth of Christ. This would put His birth somewhere in the fall, around September/October. Many theologians believe it is closer to the feast of trumpets.
When people look at Jeremiah 10, they like to say it's just about carved wooden idols.... Yet the language is clear.
Jeremiah 10:3-5 NKJV
3 For the customs of the peoples are futile;
For one cuts a tree from the forest,
The work of the hands of the workman, with the ax.
4 They decorate it with silver and gold;
They fasten it with nails and hammers
So that it will not topple.
5 They are upright, like a palm tree,
And they cannot speak;
They must be carried,
Because they cannot go by themselves.
Do not be afraid of them,
For they cannot do evil,
Nor can they do any good.”
It says nothing about carving the trees into idols. And even if they did, the people in babylon worshipped at various times a stump, an evergreen tree, and the images carved out of the fallen trees as a symbol of fertility (you can imagine what it represents).
On December 25th, the sun god worshipers observed the birthday of the sun god. This coincided with the pagan festival of Saturnalia. This was a time of roaring debauchery, drunkenness, orgies, etc. They would even sacrifice children on the "yule" log.
Tik mentioned that the Roman Catholic Church was right to "change" this pagan day into a Christian day... yet we see many times in the bible where God says very clearly "Do not worship Me in that way." How in the world does doing the same traditions as the pagan people and trying to dedicate it to God please Him? Did He not say to not learn their ways and to not worship Him in that way? As Christian who are exhorted to seek what is pleasing to God, is this pleasing to Him?
Another question to ask. If you have wife and since you have a hard time remembering the day of your anniversary, but remember the day you had an anniversary with a prior girlfriend, would it be pleasing to her if you ask her if it's ok to change your anniversary to the day you had with another woman because it's easier to remember? No. Similarly if you want to establish Christ's birthday on December 25th, we have to remember that the pagan peoples worshipped Mithra/Baal's birthday on December 25th while Christ's was sometime in the fall.
A previous poster had a great post regarding the ordinances Christ gave us. Each time we partake of the Lord's Supper, we remember His death until He comes again. The other ordinance being Water Baptism (btw, there were only two ordinances Jesus gave us). If we are to follow the example of the apostles and what God has given us in His word, where do we see them celebrating Jesus' birthday? (The only mention of a birthday I've seen is in Job, and sadly, that's not mentioned in a good light. We can definitely give thanks to God on this day for putting us on this earth, but our focus should never be removed from God to self as that is idolatry of self).
Case in point, Ecclesiastes 7:1-2
Ecclesiastes 7New King James Version (NKJV)
The Value of Practical Wisdom
7 A good name is better than precious ointment,
And the day of death than the day of one’s birth;
2 Better to go to the house of mourning
Than to go to the house of feasting,
For that is the end of all men;
And the living will take it to heart.
The celebration of the life of God's people was always mentioned and celebrated in the bible as it indicates and shows the fruit of a person's life.
It is a joyous occasion where Jesus Christ, the Logos/Word manifest in the flesh came to this earth in human form to be our High Priest who knows our struggles and die for our sins. However, we do need to stop and analyze what we do and why we do it. Remember, it doesn't matter what things mean to us, let us find out what God says about it and then make changes in our life. People will say, but I have Jesus in my mind when I do these things, but the traditions and customs being done mirror things which God has expressly said never to do or learn. As God is the same today as He was yesterday and will be tomorrow, do you think God has forgotten what these things meant? The worship of other gods, sacrifices of innocent lives on the fires, etc back then were enough for God to give Israel a certificate of divorce (He has not forgotten them and will come back for them). Let us examine then what it is we are doing during this time period. Are our actions pleasing to Him based on what we know in the bible? Have we examined what it is we are doing before we do it? Has God in the past condemned these actions? God never gave Christians the right to "claim" things for Him unless He has specifically instructed us to do so. If we are to come out of her (the world), then why do we adopt the very things He said not to do?
Can't we celebrate Jesus Christ every day? Why do we have to relegate it to a specific day which we know that Christ was not born on? Just some food for thought as we study His word and apply it to our lives.
Christmas or Christ mass was never celebrated by the early church as it was a Roman Catholic invention (mass gives it away right?). Let's look at the facts.
Is God today the same as God was yesterday and the same as God will be tomorrow? Yes.
Someone brought up a good example from the OT where God instructed the Israelites when they went into a land where God told them to go, that they should utterly destroy everything and not inquire as to the ways these people worshiped their gods. Why? Because God gives His people the way He wants us to worship Him. To God, for His people to imitate the ways these people worshiped their false gods was tantamount to spiritual infidelity. Why then does the bible say God is a jealous God? As the Church is the bride of Christ and Israel was God's first "wife" essentially, then why wouldn't a husband be jealous when His wife goes after strange men? Is she not supposed to remain faithful to her husband? This is why God told the Israelites not to even learn their ways or worship Him in those ways... the ways where the people sent their babies through the flames, engaged in carnal celebrations, etc.
The traditions and practices of Christmas are steeped in sun god worship. Easter is steeped in fertility worship. It wasn't until the Catholic Church "syncretized" these pagan days into the worship of their Jesus did these practices become widespread. And as the reformers "reformed" the Church instead of wiping the slate clean, these practices filtered back into the church once again.
If we analyze the advent story, we notice that shepherds were abiding by their flocks by night. If you look at December nights in Jerusalem, you will notice that they are bitterly cold and oftentimes snowy. What shepherd would abide by their flocks by night in this weather? They wouldn't. This would cause their flocks to die. In addition, we know for a fact that the bible does not tell us how many wise men visited Jesus. We just know there are three gifts. In addition, the bible tells us that after Jesus was born, the wise men came from the east to give the gifts of gold, frankincense and myrrh which according to the customs of the middle east/babylonians represented a funeral annointing for a king, thus negating the "birthday present" aspect of Christ's birth. The angels were rejoicing for prophecy fulfilled in the birth of Christ, not specifically His birth. Furthermore, the bible then tells us that the wise men met the "young boy" in the house, which automatically discounts any nativity scene showing "three" wise men at a manger. (Also some show a female angel, when there are no female angels in Bible canon (Deuterocanon/Apocrypha are not canon or inspired scripture)).
If we study the service of John the Baptist's father's service as a levite in the order of Abijah, we know that right after his service was done, he "knew" his wife and John the Baptist was conceived. 6 months later, Gabriel visited Mary and shortly after she conceived Jesus by the Holy Spirit. Based on when the levitical service of Abijah is, we can add 6 months for the conception of Christ, and then 9 more months for the Birth of Christ. This would put His birth somewhere in the fall, around September/October. Many theologians believe it is closer to the feast of trumpets.
When people look at Jeremiah 10, they like to say it's just about carved wooden idols.... Yet the language is clear.
Jeremiah 10:3-5 NKJV
3 For the customs of the peoples are futile;
For one cuts a tree from the forest,
The work of the hands of the workman, with the ax.
4 They decorate it with silver and gold;
They fasten it with nails and hammers
So that it will not topple.
5 They are upright, like a palm tree,
And they cannot speak;
They must be carried,
Because they cannot go by themselves.
Do not be afraid of them,
For they cannot do evil,
Nor can they do any good.”
It says nothing about carving the trees into idols. And even if they did, the people in babylon worshipped at various times a stump, an evergreen tree, and the images carved out of the fallen trees as a symbol of fertility (you can imagine what it represents).
On December 25th, the sun god worshipers observed the birthday of the sun god. This coincided with the pagan festival of Saturnalia. This was a time of roaring debauchery, drunkenness, orgies, etc. They would even sacrifice children on the "yule" log.
Tik mentioned that the Roman Catholic Church was right to "change" this pagan day into a Christian day... yet we see many times in the bible where God says very clearly "Do not worship Me in that way." How in the world does doing the same traditions as the pagan people and trying to dedicate it to God please Him? Did He not say to not learn their ways and to not worship Him in that way? As Christian who are exhorted to seek what is pleasing to God, is this pleasing to Him?
Another question to ask. If you have wife and since you have a hard time remembering the day of your anniversary, but remember the day you had an anniversary with a prior girlfriend, would it be pleasing to her if you ask her if it's ok to change your anniversary to the day you had with another woman because it's easier to remember? No. Similarly if you want to establish Christ's birthday on December 25th, we have to remember that the pagan peoples worshipped Mithra/Baal's birthday on December 25th while Christ's was sometime in the fall.
A previous poster had a great post regarding the ordinances Christ gave us. Each time we partake of the Lord's Supper, we remember His death until He comes again. The other ordinance being Water Baptism (btw, there were only two ordinances Jesus gave us). If we are to follow the example of the apostles and what God has given us in His word, where do we see them celebrating Jesus' birthday? (The only mention of a birthday I've seen is in Job, and sadly, that's not mentioned in a good light. We can definitely give thanks to God on this day for putting us on this earth, but our focus should never be removed from God to self as that is idolatry of self).
Case in point, Ecclesiastes 7:1-2
Ecclesiastes 7New King James Version (NKJV)
The Value of Practical Wisdom
7 A good name is better than precious ointment,
And the day of death than the day of one’s birth;
2 Better to go to the house of mourning
Than to go to the house of feasting,
For that is the end of all men;
And the living will take it to heart.
The celebration of the life of God's people was always mentioned and celebrated in the bible as it indicates and shows the fruit of a person's life.
It is a joyous occasion where Jesus Christ, the Logos/Word manifest in the flesh came to this earth in human form to be our High Priest who knows our struggles and die for our sins. However, we do need to stop and analyze what we do and why we do it. Remember, it doesn't matter what things mean to us, let us find out what God says about it and then make changes in our life. People will say, but I have Jesus in my mind when I do these things, but the traditions and customs being done mirror things which God has expressly said never to do or learn. As God is the same today as He was yesterday and will be tomorrow, do you think God has forgotten what these things meant? The worship of other gods, sacrifices of innocent lives on the fires, etc back then were enough for God to give Israel a certificate of divorce (He has not forgotten them and will come back for them). Let us examine then what it is we are doing during this time period. Are our actions pleasing to Him based on what we know in the bible? Have we examined what it is we are doing before we do it? Has God in the past condemned these actions? God never gave Christians the right to "claim" things for Him unless He has specifically instructed us to do so. If we are to come out of her (the world), then why do we adopt the very things He said not to do?
Can't we celebrate Jesus Christ every day? Why do we have to relegate it to a specific day which we know that Christ was not born on? Just some food for thought as we study His word and apply it to our lives.
Last edited: