The relationship between the Remission of Sins, the Blood of Jesus, and receiving the Holy Ghost

[Everlasting-Grace]

Much could be said. I hate typing and prefer talking when it comes to such heavy dialog that involves a plethora of ideas and concepts.

What about Judas Iscariot? Was he a person or a "devil"? Did Jesus die for a Devil? What about the bodies of flesh that we occupied by said devils? What about those from the Seven Nations? God called that they all be wiped out and destroyed. They were a part of the whole world. So, what is the "whole world"?

As as for the select few, the Bible is clear about the concept of the Holy Remnant. There can only, only be a select few. These would be the Vine of Christ, those of Imperishable Seed, and the rest? Well, were they not made for destruction? And if those who were made for destruction, those who I see as "humans" walking around like zombies (thus I am a stranger and alien in a foreign land), is it not His prerogative to create such beings? Should we really be concerned about those who are not of this Holy Vine? It seems to me that we're not really recognizing those who belong and those who do not belong. The world is so offended by the slaughtering in the OT, but wait a minute . . . who are we to suggest that we know who they even were? We don't know what, exactly, the Sons of God were doing back in Genesis chapter 6 . . . and then their re-appearance later after the flood.

It is vitally important, I think, to consistently ask ourselves this question as we read the entire Bible . . . "Who is Israel?" There was constant purifying taking place. Balaam and Balak . . . leading to the corruption of Isreal, hence 24,000 were killed in an instant plague until the rod was slammed through the Israelite shagging the abomination that worshipped Chemosh. Who is Israel? Who is the Remnant?

And what about this Remnant? The Remnant is a small Vine of people surrounded by corrupt "Israel" and Israel was surrounded by abominations . . . the Hittites, Canaanites, etc.

Seriously, I could go on and on . . . but I'm hungry and need to eat. haha

Judas was a person who because of his unbelief was used of satan to turn christ in

He still could have chosen to trust Christ

once again, If God only allows some people to believe and rejects everyone outright without even the ability to believe.

You can;t call God a god of love, he is not, he is a respector of persons. And those who choses. They can boast of being special in Gods eyes. Because he chose them.

they can deny it. But it does not make it any less true.

God loved the world. Not just a select few..

many are called, few are chosen. We are choses based on Gods for-knowledge. And based on our faith.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Being "born again" is Reversion. It is going "back" to something. What would that be? It would be something, or someone, like Adam and Eve. What was the difference between Adam and Eve before and after they sinned? The Curse of the Lord. Therefore, to be reborn is to be lifted of that Curse, hence, the Veil of Moses.

2 Corinthians 3:18 NLT - "So all of us who have had that veil removed can see and reflect the glory of the Lord. And the Lord--who is the Spirit--makes us more and more like him as we are changed into his glorious image."

Having the Veil removed is the Circumcision of Christ. Removal of the Veil, the Curse, is Reversion . . . so that we can see.

John 9:39 NLT - "Then Jesus told him, "I entered this world to render judgment--to give sight to the blind and to show those who think they see that they are blind."

Reversion is going from the corruptible back to the Incorruptible.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

He still could have chosen to trust Christ

The Scroll of the Lord is not written by man, but by the Lord. Thus, the Scroll has determined who belonged to Him and who did/does not. And that Scroll is not edited by the choices of man, but only by the choice of God Himself.

Ephesians 1:4 NIV - "For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight."

Are you saying that Eph 1:4 is in error?

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

What is in that Heavenly Scroll will be fulfilled.

Isaiah 34:15-16 NIV - "The owl will nest there and lay eggs, she will hatch them, and care for her young under the shadow of her wings; there also the falcons will gather, each with its mate. 16 Look in the scroll of the LORD and read: None of these will be missing, not one will lack her mate. For it is his mouth that has given the order, and his Spirit will gather them together."

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Mere humans do not dictate that Scroll. If that were the case, then God could not implement the plan discussed in Ephesians chapters 2 and 3. The Plan, therefore, would depend upon us and our human power, not upon the Will of the Lord.

 

[KelbyofGod]

Remission of sin has always been available. Abraham found it because he believed God. And it was counted to him as righteousness.

Abraham could not be seen as righteous unless his sin was remitted.

And notice it was remitted the same way ours is. By faith.

Salvation has always been by grace through faith.

I kinda see what you're saying here, but there is something(s) wrong about it.

1. It doesn't acknowledge that the Comforter (the Holy Ghost) wasn't even available until after Jesus ascended to Father.
2. Although a certain degree of protection from sin (and the effects of sin) has always been available through faith, I'm not sure it's accurate to go so far as claiming "remission of sins" was available before the word of God states that it is available.

And yes, that's even remembering Hebrews 4:3.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

 

[KelbyofGod]

@2ndTimothyGroup ,

There's a lot in your post #109 and I think I'll limit my answer, for now, to the first 2 or 3 things in it. Plus, I don't claim to have read all postings that were not directed at me in some obvious way.

I hear you, but . . . what did you think of the assertions that I was making, which is that John had been granted the function of removing the Curse of the Lord much like the seventy who were sent out were able to cast out demons, heal, etc?

What do you mean,specifically, by "the Curse of the Lord"? And is there a scripture stating that John was removing it? I see it stated that John was given a "tool" (water baptism) and the authority to implement that "tool" as a function of repentance, to the result of remission of sins. But I see no mention John being given the authority for removal of any particular curse.

Who was performing the healings? The Seventy, or Christ THROUGH them?

My answer is (basically) always "God is ultimately the one doing the healing". But it's also not wrong to say "So-and-so healed [somebody]" because the bible uses that kind of wording. Here's just one example:

"And they (refering to the 12 disciples) cast out many devils, and anointed with oil many that were sick, and healed them." - Mark 6:13 KJV​

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

 

[KelbyofGod]

Yes, your statement is bold and erroneous.

No, it is not Scriptural.

When a man asks Jesus to be Lord of his life, his sins are remitted by the Blood of Jesus, and he receives Holy Spirit. This is what it means to be born again.

John
3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Two comments:

1. I take it you skipped the FIRST, THEN, NOW exercise(?)
2. I'm guessing you can post several Billy Graham videos showing where someone is "asking Jesus to be Lord of his life" (followed by Billy Graham telling them they've received the Holy Ghost). BUT... can you provide a single biblical account of someone "asking Jesus to be Lord of his life" (and then the bible stating "and at that moment they received the Holy Ghost")?

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

 

[KelbyofGod]

@oyster67 (regarding examples)
I'm asking for something like either of these biblical accounts:

"Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: [15] Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: [16] (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) [17] Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost." - Acts 8:14-17 KJV​

--Or--​

"When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. [6] And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied." - Acts 19:5-6 KJV​

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

 

[KelbyofGod]

U want to earn salvation

be my guest. I wont and can’t stop you

But just remember the jews tried that. They got shut down.

Where in that post did I say anything about earning salvation?

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

What do you mean,specifically, by "the Curse of the Lord"?

Hello Kelby!

Thank you for showing your genuine willingness to learn. What I appreciate about this willingness is that it's true . . . I am "reaching" in this particular idea about John. However, and although I admit that I am reaching, a part of me believes strongly that my hypothesis is indeed True. As for the Curse of the Lord, I use as many translations as I can get my hands on. Here is one that uses that expression clearly:

Galatians 3:13 NLT - "But Christ has rescued us from the curse pronounced by the law. When he was hung on the cross, he took upon himself the curse for our wrongdoing. For it is written in the Scriptures, "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."

This is the same Curse as discussed in Romans chapter five as Paul relates it to the unholy work of Adam and Eve. So, we are redeemed of a Curse . . . wouldn't it make sense that this Curse is what is being removed in Colossians 2:11?

Colossians 2:11 NLT - "When you came to Christ, you were "circumcised," but not by a physical procedure. Christ performed a spiritual circumcision--the cutting away of your sinful nature."

Colossians 2:9-15 addresses the "problem" that Adam and Eve set into motion. The problem of God's Curse:

2 Peter 2:14 NLT - "They commit adultery with their eyes, and their desire for sin is never satisfied. They lure unstable people into sin, and they are well trained in greed. They live under God's curse."

So, it is this Curse that Christ was purposed for which to provide Holy Redemption.

And is there a scripture stating that John was removing it?

No sir. There is no such verse. We must, though, consider all of Scripture through the concept of the Mysterious Plan.

Ephesians 3:9 NLT - "I was chosen to explain to everyone this mysterious plan that God, the Creator of all things, had kept secret from the beginning."

Ephesians 6:19 NLT - "And pray for me, too. Ask God to give me the right words so I can boldly explain God's mysterious plan that the Good News is for Jews and Gentiles alike."

This Plan is not easy to understand even though Paul "unpacks" it for us. And even though he reveals this Plan to us, it remains hidden today, only available to the Lord's True Saints. I would have told you ten years ago that I knew what this Plan was, but I was clueless. It wasn't until I felt the Raw, Almighty Power of God that I realized I had better get busy and figure out what the Bible was about. I hadn't even read the Old Testament at that point, yet I considered myself a "master" of sorts (regarding certain doctrines). So, that's what I did . . . I began reading the Bible as I applied three sets of Scripture to every word in the Bible. They are:

Ephesians 3:1-13
Ephesians 2:10-16
Colossians 2:9-15

If a person processed the entire Bible through those three sets of Scripture, it would change not only their entire perspective of the Bible, but their life would be change. I mean, Truly changed. As silly as it may seem, I refer to those three passage sets as the Triangle of Truth.


But back to John. No, there is no Scripture that states that John was removing the Sin Nature. But Jesus said that there is no one greater than John. That's significant because there must be a significant reason for such a saying. If John's Baptism seems to grant Repentance, this cannot be done unless the Curse of the Lord has been lifted. No one can Repent, or do anything that stems from a "whole" heart until their heart has been made Whole. Let's relate this to the fact that Jesus could not heal people who did not have faith. It is the same concept.

Mark 6:5-6 NIV - "He could not do any miracles there, except lay his hands on a few sick people and heal them. 6 He was amazed at their lack of faith. Then Jesus went around teaching from village to village."

Therefore, we can gather that all healings in the New Testament revolved around those who had Faith. Who can have faith if they remain under the Curse? No one. Why would Jesus heal a person that was Cursed? What would the point in such an action be? Why heal a person that is bound for hell?

Ephesians 1:4 NIV - "For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight."

Jesus knew who belonged to Him, thus, what would the purpose be in healing a person who would never receive Eternal Life? Jesus actually confirms what the healings were about in John 9:39. It says:

John 9:38-41 NIV - "Then the man said, "Lord, I believe," and he worshiped him. 39 Jesus said,"For judgment I have come into this world, so that the blind will see and those who see will become blind." 40 Some Pharisees who were with him heard him say this and asked, "What? Are we blind too?" 41 Jesus said, "If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains."

Jesus only healed those who had Faith. And so again, back to John. Those who received his baptism were Enabled to believe in the Plan of God, while those who did not receive the Baptism of John, they rejected the Plan of God.

Acts 19:3-4 NIV - "So Paul asked, "Then what baptism did you receive?" "John's baptism," they replied. 4 Paul said, "John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus."

So let's head back to Luke 7:

Luke 7:28-30 NIV - "I tell you, among those born of women there is no one greater than John; yet the one who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he." 29 (All the people, even the tax collectors, when they heard Jesus' words, acknowledged that God's way was right, because they had been baptized by John. 30 But the Pharisees and the experts in the law rejected God's purpose for themselves, because they had not been baptized by John.)"

Do you see it? The Baptism of John was extraordinary. There was something going on with John, for, no one is greater than John. Why?! Because his Baptisn was of a different Nature altogether.

Look at the question that Jesus posits from Matthew chapter 21:

Matthew 21:25 NIV - "John's baptism--where did it come from? Was it from heaven, or of human origin?" They discussed it among themselves and said, "If we say, 'From heaven,' he will ask, 'Then why didn't you believe him?"

Yes. John's Baptism was from Heaven . . . it contained a supernatural element. Now, what about the seventy that were sent out to heal and cast out demons?

Luke 10:16-19 NIV - "Whoever listens to you listens to me; whoever rejects you rejects me; but whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me." 17 The seventy-two returned with joy and said, "Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name." 18 He replied, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. 19 I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you."

For Satan to fall from the sky like lightening is Jesus's way of saying that Satan was defeated in the lives of those people who had been redeemed. Doesn't it seem reasonable that when John Baptized with his Baptism that was from heaven, that Jesus ALSO saw Satan fall from the sky like lightening? Absolutely, yes. So, John's Baptism in on the same level as the seventy being given the Power to heal and cast out demons. John could not grant a baptism of Heavenly Power no more than could the seventy unless it weren't for Jesus granting that ability through and from Himself. Again . . .

"Whoever listens to you listens to me . . ." When those who were Baptised by John, they were receiving a lifting of the Curse of the Lord, just as were the Seventy who were astonished that they would heal and cast out demons. Like Jesus being unable to heal those who did not have Faith, John could not offer such a Baptism nor could the Seventy do what they had done unless that Curse had been removed. John "prepared the way" for perhaps thousands to be ready to receive the outpouring of the Spirit that was not readily available . . . yet. However, this Holy Spirit is the same Spirit that would given to those of the Old Testament who led Israel.

Numbers 11:28-29 NIV - "Joshua son of Nun, who had been Moses' aide since youth, spoke up and said, "Moses, my lord, stop them!" 29 But Moses replied, "Are you jealous for my sake? I wish that all the LORD's people were prophets and that the LORD would put his Spirit on them!"

Seriously, I could keep writing and writing and writing. But, for now, I have expounded on these things enough so that if I keep typing, it'll be too long for this post.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Two comments:

1. I take it you skipped the FIRST, THEN, NOW exercise(?)
2. I'm guessing you can post several Billy Graham videos showing where someone is "asking Jesus to be Lord of his life" (followed by Billy Graham telling them they've received the Holy Ghost). BUT... can you provide a single biblical account of someone "asking Jesus to be Lord of his life" (and then the bible stating "and at that moment they received the Holy Ghost")?

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

Unfortunately, Billy G never taught Circumcision of the heart, thus, he taught a gospel that couldn't save anyone. Billy may have led people in the right direction, but I see no evidence that Billy understood the actual workings of the Plan of God. It is impossible to speak of the Plan of God without referencing Spiritual Circumcision, for Circumcision of the Heart is the "Heart" of the Gospel, no pun intended. The "church" is utterly ashamed of the word circumcision. People hear that word in church and they begin to think about a man's phallus . . . thus most pastors rarely ever mention the word at all. When was the last time you heard to people talking about circumcision while standing within the walls of a church? And what would people think if they heard two children taking about it? They'd be horrified! They'd gasp! But the Truth is . . . is that there would be nothing more incredible than to hear two small children speaking about the Heart of the Gospel . . . Circumcision of the Heart. In fact, it angers me that we do not teach the Core of the Gospel to our children. Man, we don't even teach the Core of the Gospel to adults! Ahhh . . . the Mysterious Plan. Isn't the Lord tricky? He hides His Almighty Gospel behind the phallus of a man . . . who would have ever thought it. So, when we speak of circumcision, we are mostly ashamed, thus, most Christians are ashamed of the Gospel. And little did they know that their physical circumcision is a reflection of the Heart of the Gospel . . . the very Covenant that God made with Abraham. Little did they know that when they plunged their circumcised phallus into animals, prostitutes, the rectums of other men, or simply woman after woman after woman, they were literally abusing the covenant of the Lord. They were in effect thrusting the Core of the Gospel into total depravity and they didn't even realize what they were doing.

Christians are so bloody ignorant just as I was ignorant. But, it isn't our fault. We have not been and are not being taught the Truth. In fact, I know of no one that is more bold on this topic than myself, thus I am often hated on sites such as this one. We don't like to hear the truth. The alternative is that I not speak the Truth so that I can be loved by men. But that's not what True Circumcision does to a person. Instead, True Circumcision causes us to seek the praise of God and not men.

Romans 2:27-29 NLT - "In fact, uncircumcised Gentiles who keep God's law will condemn you Jews who are circumcised and possess God's law but don't obey it. 28 For you are not a true Jew just because you were born of Jewish parents or because you have gone through the ceremony of circumcision. 29 No, a true Jew is one whose heart is right with God. And true circumcision is not merely obeying the letter of the law; rather, it is a change of heart produced by God's Spirit. And a person with a changed heart seeks praise from God, not from people."

Did you see that? True Circumcision is what causes a person to no longer seek the praise of people, but of God Himself. This is one of the Effects of Christ. We no longer fear people, but God alone.

Circumcision of the Heart is at the core of the entire Bible. Please, I beg of you to view all of God's word through the Triangle of Truth that I showed you. As I said, you will never be the same once you do.

Respectfully,

David

 

[KelbyofGod]

Hi David,
I read both posts and again they cover quite a range. I'll just comment on the following quotes (both from the same paragraph) because they seemed rather important in idea and simple enough to address.

Therefore, we can gather that all healings in the New Testament revolved around those who had Faith. Who can have faith if they remain under the Curse? No one.

I agree that it takes faith to 'cause' a healing. But I don't think that is the same as being free from the curse. The reason I say that is prophecy (prophesying) also requires faith; but even if someone has the faith to both prophesy and also do other wonderful works through faith, they still may find themselves on the wrong side of a (the?) curse. (Consider Matthew 7:22,23)

Why would Jesus heal a person that was Cursed? What would the point in such an action be? Why heal a person that is bound for hell?

Because he loves them even if they don't love him.

"That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?" - Matthew 5:45-46 KJV​

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

The Scroll of the Lord is not written by man, but by the Lord. Thus, the Scroll has determined who belonged to Him and who did/does not. And that Scroll is not edited by the choices of man, but only by the choice of God Himself.

Ephesians 1:4 NIV - "For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight."

Are you saying that Eph 1:4 is in error?

so god just choses some and forces them to believe whether they want to or not.

and does not even allow others the chance.

then calls himself a loving God?

God chose according to his will. that whoever sees and believes will have eternal life. and they will be conformed to his image.

I can't tell a group of ten people I love them so much I am going to give them all a million dollars all they have to do is come. Then only allow 3 of them to come, and the rest prevent them from even having the ability to come.

I am seen by everyone who sees as a liar. I do not love them. And my offer was a fraudulent offer..

I am sorry bro. I can not agree with this attack on Gods character.. I know your my brother. but I can not support your view.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

I kinda see what you're saying here, but there is something(s) wrong about it.

1. It doesn't acknowledge that the Comforter (the Holy Ghost) wasn't even available until after Jesus ascended to Father.
2. Although a certain degree of protection from sin (and the effects of sin) has always been available through faith, I'm not sure it's accurate to go so far as claiming "remission of sins" was available before the word of God states that it is available.

And yes, that's even remembering Hebrews 4:3.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

lol
salvation from the time of adam has been by grace through faith.

If you could save yourself. the lamb of God would have stayed in heaven and we would all be saved based on our righteousness.

which by the way, we would have all failed

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Where in that post did I say anything about earning salvation?

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

where in your post did you NOT claim you were tryign to earn salvation?

 

[KelbyofGod]

.... wow.

 

[Wansvic]

Dude I am no longer responding to your self righteous gospel I told you that before. In another thread. So this is all I wills ay to you in this thread.

God requires perfection. If your not perfect. He made a way for you to be saved. But you must meet him at the cross.

Watering down the law so you can appear to be good enough to save yourself and adding all these works does not help you. Your taking away from the cross. And putting Christ to shame.

Obedience is an act of love. And, Jesus said He will reveal himself to those who obey Him.

"He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him." John 14:21

"If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love." John 15:10

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

.... wow.

you believe in salvation by water baptism correct? And that salvation can be lost correct?

 

[rogerg]

One thing that "Christians" ought think about is how Abraham, David, Joshua, Caleb, Moses, and all mentioned in the Great Hall of Faith, Hebrews chapter 11, could be considered Holy, Righteous and Pure . . . even though Christ hadn't died yet. How is it possible to be Pure if Christ hadn't lived or died in his physical body so as to be that final Sacrifice for all sin?

Understanding Salvation in the Old Testament explodes wide open Salvation as it is found in the New Testament.

No. Jesus was foreordained as Saviour before the foundation of the world:

[1Pe 1:19 KJV] 19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
[1Pe 1:20 KJV] 20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Christ has always been the Saviour - He has never not been the Saviour. Old Testament or New Testament, all who ever have become saved, or will ever be saved, are saved the same way: by Jesus Christ.