"The rich man And Lazarus..."
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Solomon wrote somewhat about the afterlife in the book of Ecclesiastes; but
he wrote from the perspective of a man "under the sun" whereas Jesus
spoke of the afterlife as a man from Heaven (John 3:13). In my book, Jesus
is the one to hear in matters related to the afterlife because he's actually
seen it for himself, and his knowledge trumps Solomon's.
• Matt 12:42 . .The queen of the south will be raised up in the judgment
with this generation and will condemn it; because she came from the ends of
the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon, but, look! something more than
Solomon is here.
• John 3:31 . . The one who comes from above is above all; the one who is
from the earth belongs to the earth, and speaks as one from the earth. The
one who comes from heaven is above all.
And Jesus comes highly recommended too.
• Matt 17:5 . . This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved; listen to
him.
So then, when encountering remarks in the book of Ecclesiastes that are out
of step with Jesus; my unsolicited spiritual counseling is to ignore Solomon's
world view and go with the heavenly view taught by "my Son".
• John 8:12 . . I am the light of the world. He that follows me will by no
means walk in darkness, but will possess the light of life.
_
Solomon wrote somewhat about the afterlife in the book of Ecclesiastes; but
he wrote from the perspective of a man "under the sun" whereas Jesus
spoke of the afterlife as a man from Heaven (John 3:13). In my book, Jesus
is the one to hear in matters related to the afterlife because he's actually
seen it for himself, and his knowledge trumps Solomon's.
• Matt 12:42 . .The queen of the south will be raised up in the judgment
with this generation and will condemn it; because she came from the ends of
the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon, but, look! something more than
Solomon is here.
• John 3:31 . . The one who comes from above is above all; the one who is
from the earth belongs to the earth, and speaks as one from the earth. The
one who comes from heaven is above all.
And Jesus comes highly recommended too.
• Matt 17:5 . . This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved; listen to
him.
So then, when encountering remarks in the book of Ecclesiastes that are out
of step with Jesus; my unsolicited spiritual counseling is to ignore Solomon's
world view and go with the heavenly view taught by "my Son".
• John 8:12 . . I am the light of the world. He that follows me will by no
means walk in darkness, but will possess the light of life.
_
Sorry if this is a long post, but hopefully it will settle the dispute once and for all. First is foundational knowledge then quotes from ECF/reformers, followed by the Rich man and Lazarus Parable; one builds on top of the other. Talking about the Rich man parable without foundational knowledge is like trying to do calculus before you know what numbers are or how to add and substract.
I spent a considerable amount of time compiling this (some of my own and some from others), so hopefully it is read and helps others as it has helped me through my "pulling of weeds" of bad theology that has been handed down from generation to generation for centuries without skepticism or being challenge.
Yes, I'm aware that there are NT verses that "appear" to support immortality of the soul which people use, the rich man being one of them. But since this post is about the rich man parable, I'm not addressing the other commonly used verses, all of which can be explained with a Jewish/Biblical lens.
If you have red glasses on you will see everything red, if blue, then everything will appear blue. The person with red will use verses to support what they believe and the ones with blue will do the same, and neither will understand how the other person sees it differently because they are starting from two different positions or "glasses". You can only understand one another when you take off your glasses and put on theirs.
If you have the incorrect set of glasses, then when you read the bible you can easily misinterpret what is being said based upon your presuppositions or glasses, to no fault of your own, you just don't know any different (as we all make mistakes).
In many cases of dispute within Christianity (including this one), if you come to the scriptures with Platonic/Greek glasses, then when you read the bible you will have a Greek application to scriptures instead of a Jewish/Biblical view. If you don't understand the radical difference between a Jewish worldview and and Greek world view and the philosophies of men that the apostles had to combat when they went to preach the Gospel to a Greek saturated Gentile world, then you will never understand the bible correctly.
If you believe as Plato and the Greeks that a soul is inherently immortal and continues to exist outside of the body, then when you read passages such as this, you will interpret that these are real people. If however, you create your foundation (definition of words/terminology and theology) in the OT first through a Jewish set of glasses, before jumping into the NT, then you would understand that the dead are dead, without consciousness, and remain "asleep" until either the first resurrection (believers, Rev 20 or the second resurrection unbelievers, judgement day), and you would interpret this parable, as a parable that has meaning to the audience who are saturated in the OT scriptures'.
Foundational knowledge:
No conscious after death:
Ecclesiastes 9:1-10
9 For I [a]considered all this in my heart, so that I could declare it all: that the righteous and the wise and their works are in the hand of God. People know neither love nor hatred by anything they see before them. 2 All things come alike to all:
One event happens to the righteous and the wicked;
To the good, the clean, and the unclean;
To him who sacrifices and him who does not sacrifice.
As is the good, so is the sinner;
He who takes an oath as he who fears an oath.
3 This is an evil in all that is done under the sun: that one thing happens to all. Truly the hearts of the sons of men are full of evil; madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that they go to the dead. 4 But for him who is joined to all the living there is hope (resurrection), for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
5 For the living know that they will die;
But the dead know nothing,
And they have no more reward,
For the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished;
Nevermore will they have a share
In anything done under the sun.
7 Go, eat your bread with joy,
And drink your wine with a merry heart;
For God has already accepted your works.
8 Let your garments always be white,
And let your head lack no oil.
9 [c]Live joyfully with the wife whom you love all the days of your vain life which He has given you under the sun, all your days of vanity; for that is your portion in life, and in the labor which you perform under the sun.
10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going.
Psalm 6:5
Psalm 30:9 9
Psalm 88:9-12
Psalm 115:16-17
Psalm 146:4
KJ21
His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/h6250/kjv/wlc/0-1/
We all go to one place, the dust we came from. No one goes to heaven, the place where the Father, Son, and angelic beings are at (John 3:13, the only person who has ascended to heaven is He who came down from heaven):
Genesis 3:19
19 In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread
Till you return to the ground,
For out of it you were taken;
For dust you are,
And to dust you shall return.”
Ecclesiastes 3:17-20
Ecclesiastes 12:7
Then the dust will return to the earth as it was,
And the breath will return to God who gave it.
Isaiah 26:19, read Is. 26:19-27:1, it's about the future.
19 Your dead shall live;
Together with [a]my dead body they shall arise.
Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust;
For your dew is like the dew of herbs,
And the earth shall cast out the dead.
Psalm 104:29
Job_7:21
Job_10:9
Job_17:16
Job_21:26
Job_34:15
John 3:13
13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.
Sleep verses:
Job 14:10-12
10 But man dies and is laid away;
Indeed, he breathes his last
And, where is he?
11 As water disappears from the sea,
And a river becomes parched and dries up,
12 So man lies down and does not rise.
Till the heavens are no more,
They will not awake
Nor be roused from their sleep.
Job knew of and looked forward to the resurrection of his physical body in which he would be able to, sing, praise, worship, love, and enjoy lives pleasures; which occurs AFTER he dies, then in his resurrected body he shall see God.
Job 19:25-27
25 For I know that my Redeemer lives,
And He shall stand at last on the earth land;
26 And after my skin is [a]destroyed, this I know,
That in my flesh I shall see God,
27 Whom I shall see for myself,
And my eyes shall behold, and not another.
How my heart yearns within me!
Psalm 13:3
3 Consider and hear me, O LORD my God; Enlighten my eyes, Lest I sleep the sleep of death;
Daniel 12:2
2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Matthew 27:52 (that is, their bodies were raised out of the ground exposed due to the earthquake, not that they were raised into a resurrection).
Mark 5:39
Joh 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go,G4198 that I may awake him out of sleep.G1852
G1852 exypnizō, to wake up, awaken out of a sleep
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g1852/kjv/tr/0-1/
John 11:13
Acts 2:29-34 (David dead and buried in his tomb, and did not go to heaven)
29 “Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, 31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore being exalted [j]to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.
34 “For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself:
‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
35 Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.” ’
Acts 7:59-60
Luke 23:46
46 And when Jesus had cried out with a loud voice, He said, “Father, ‘into Your hands I commit My spirit (Lit. breath).’ ” Having said this, He breathed His last."
Acts 13:36
1 Corinthians 15:6
1 Corinthians 15:20
1 Corinthians 15:51
1 Thessalonians 4:13
1 Thessalonians 4:14
1 Thessalonians 4:15
2 Peter 3:3-4
What is a soul:
The question is, do we have/possess a soul as Plato and the Greeks taught (body and soul are separate, soul dwells in body and leaves after death) or are we a soul (body+breath of life=soul). It's better to think about what Plato taught that a "soul" is actually a ghost which leaves the body because the definition (as being explained) of a soul according to the bible is different than what Plato and the Greeks taught.
You don't have a soul, you are a soul. Humans are souls and animals are souls. Without the breath of life you cease to exist. Without blood running in your body, you cease to exist, this is defined in Genesis 1:20-2:19, 9:3-16.
The word is neh'-fesh (H5315) it is translated inconsistently in the KJV as: life, creature, thing, being, persons, soul, mind, lives, man, heart, one, dead, body, beast, themselves, they, breath.
H5351
neh'-fesh
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/h5315/kjv/wlc/0-1/
I spent a considerable amount of time compiling this (some of my own and some from others), so hopefully it is read and helps others as it has helped me through my "pulling of weeds" of bad theology that has been handed down from generation to generation for centuries without skepticism or being challenge.
Yes, I'm aware that there are NT verses that "appear" to support immortality of the soul which people use, the rich man being one of them. But since this post is about the rich man parable, I'm not addressing the other commonly used verses, all of which can be explained with a Jewish/Biblical lens.
If you have red glasses on you will see everything red, if blue, then everything will appear blue. The person with red will use verses to support what they believe and the ones with blue will do the same, and neither will understand how the other person sees it differently because they are starting from two different positions or "glasses". You can only understand one another when you take off your glasses and put on theirs.
If you have the incorrect set of glasses, then when you read the bible you can easily misinterpret what is being said based upon your presuppositions or glasses, to no fault of your own, you just don't know any different (as we all make mistakes).
In many cases of dispute within Christianity (including this one), if you come to the scriptures with Platonic/Greek glasses, then when you read the bible you will have a Greek application to scriptures instead of a Jewish/Biblical view. If you don't understand the radical difference between a Jewish worldview and and Greek world view and the philosophies of men that the apostles had to combat when they went to preach the Gospel to a Greek saturated Gentile world, then you will never understand the bible correctly.
If you believe as Plato and the Greeks that a soul is inherently immortal and continues to exist outside of the body, then when you read passages such as this, you will interpret that these are real people. If however, you create your foundation (definition of words/terminology and theology) in the OT first through a Jewish set of glasses, before jumping into the NT, then you would understand that the dead are dead, without consciousness, and remain "asleep" until either the first resurrection (believers, Rev 20 or the second resurrection unbelievers, judgement day), and you would interpret this parable, as a parable that has meaning to the audience who are saturated in the OT scriptures'.
Foundational knowledge:
No conscious after death:
Ecclesiastes 9:1-10
9 For I [a]considered all this in my heart, so that I could declare it all: that the righteous and the wise and their works are in the hand of God. People know neither love nor hatred by anything they see before them. 2 All things come alike to all:
One event happens to the righteous and the wicked;
To the good, the clean, and the unclean;
To him who sacrifices and him who does not sacrifice.
As is the good, so is the sinner;
He who takes an oath as he who fears an oath.
3 This is an evil in all that is done under the sun: that one thing happens to all. Truly the hearts of the sons of men are full of evil; madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that they go to the dead. 4 But for him who is joined to all the living there is hope (resurrection), for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
5 For the living know that they will die;
But the dead know nothing,
And they have no more reward,
For the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished;
Nevermore will they have a share
In anything done under the sun.
7 Go, eat your bread with joy,
And drink your wine with a merry heart;
For God has already accepted your works.
8 Let your garments always be white,
And let your head lack no oil.
9 [c]Live joyfully with the wife whom you love all the days of your vain life which He has given you under the sun, all your days of vanity; for that is your portion in life, and in the labor which you perform under the sun.
10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going.
Psalm 6:5
Psalm 30:9 9
Psalm 88:9-12
Psalm 115:16-17
Psalm 146:4
KJ21
His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/h6250/kjv/wlc/0-1/
We all go to one place, the dust we came from. No one goes to heaven, the place where the Father, Son, and angelic beings are at (John 3:13, the only person who has ascended to heaven is He who came down from heaven):
Genesis 3:19
19 In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread
Till you return to the ground,
For out of it you were taken;
For dust you are,
And to dust you shall return.”
Ecclesiastes 3:17-20
Ecclesiastes 12:7
Then the dust will return to the earth as it was,
And the breath will return to God who gave it.
Isaiah 26:19, read Is. 26:19-27:1, it's about the future.
19 Your dead shall live;
Together with [a]my dead body they shall arise.
Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust;
For your dew is like the dew of herbs,
And the earth shall cast out the dead.
Psalm 104:29
Job_7:21
Job_10:9
Job_17:16
Job_21:26
Job_34:15
John 3:13
13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.
Sleep verses:
Job 14:10-12
10 But man dies and is laid away;
Indeed, he breathes his last
And, where is he?
11 As water disappears from the sea,
And a river becomes parched and dries up,
12 So man lies down and does not rise.
Till the heavens are no more,
They will not awake
Nor be roused from their sleep.
Job knew of and looked forward to the resurrection of his physical body in which he would be able to, sing, praise, worship, love, and enjoy lives pleasures; which occurs AFTER he dies, then in his resurrected body he shall see God.
Job 19:25-27
25 For I know that my Redeemer lives,
And He shall stand at last on the earth land;
26 And after my skin is [a]destroyed, this I know,
That in my flesh I shall see God,
27 Whom I shall see for myself,
And my eyes shall behold, and not another.
How my heart yearns within me!
Psalm 13:3
3 Consider and hear me, O LORD my God; Enlighten my eyes, Lest I sleep the sleep of death;
Daniel 12:2
2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Matthew 27:52 (that is, their bodies were raised out of the ground exposed due to the earthquake, not that they were raised into a resurrection).
Mark 5:39
Joh 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go,G4198 that I may awake him out of sleep.G1852
G1852 exypnizō, to wake up, awaken out of a sleep
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g1852/kjv/tr/0-1/
John 11:13
Acts 2:29-34 (David dead and buried in his tomb, and did not go to heaven)
29 “Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, 31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore being exalted [j]to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.
34 “For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself:
‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
35 Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.” ’
Acts 7:59-60
Luke 23:46
46 And when Jesus had cried out with a loud voice, He said, “Father, ‘into Your hands I commit My spirit (Lit. breath).’ ” Having said this, He breathed His last."
Acts 13:36
1 Corinthians 15:6
1 Corinthians 15:20
1 Corinthians 15:51
1 Thessalonians 4:13
1 Thessalonians 4:14
1 Thessalonians 4:15
2 Peter 3:3-4
What is a soul:
The question is, do we have/possess a soul as Plato and the Greeks taught (body and soul are separate, soul dwells in body and leaves after death) or are we a soul (body+breath of life=soul). It's better to think about what Plato taught that a "soul" is actually a ghost which leaves the body because the definition (as being explained) of a soul according to the bible is different than what Plato and the Greeks taught.
You don't have a soul, you are a soul. Humans are souls and animals are souls. Without the breath of life you cease to exist. Without blood running in your body, you cease to exist, this is defined in Genesis 1:20-2:19, 9:3-16.
The word is neh'-fesh (H5315) it is translated inconsistently in the KJV as: life, creature, thing, being, persons, soul, mind, lives, man, heart, one, dead, body, beast, themselves, they, breath.
H5351
neh'-fesh
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/h5315/kjv/wlc/0-1/
Inheritance of the Promised land:
Psalm 2:6-9 LXX
6 But I have been made King by Him, on Sion His holy mountain, 7 declaring the ordinance of the Lord. The Lord said to Me: “You are My Son, today I have begotten You. 8 Ask of me, and I will give You the nations for Your inheritance, and the ends of the Land for Your possession. 9 You shall shepherd them with a rod of iron; You shall shatter them like a potter's vessel.”
Psalm 2 quoted in the New Testament:
Psalm 2:1, 2 Acts 4:25, 26
Psalm 2:7 Acts 13:33; Hebrews 1:5 ; 5:5
Psalm 2:8, 9 Revelation 2:26, 27; 12:5; 19:15
Psalm 16:5-11 LXX
5 "The Lord is the portion of mine inheritance and of my cup: thou art he that restores my inheritance to me. 6 The lines have fallen to me in the best places, yea, I have a most excellent heritage.
Psalm 16 quoted by Peter Acts 2:25-33 saying it refers to Christ.
Psalm 37:9-11
9 For evildoers shall be cut off;
But those who wait on the Lord,
They shall inherit the earth (Lit. land).
10 For yet a little while and the wicked shall be no more;
Indeed, you will look carefully for his place,
But it shall be no more.
11 But the meek shall inherit the earth (land), (Jesus quotes this Matthew 5:5)
And shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.
Psalm 37:20-22
20 But the wicked shall perish;
And the enemies of the Lord,
Like the splendor of the meadows, shall vanish.
Into smoke they shall vanish away.
21 The wicked borrows and does not repay,
But the righteous shows mercy and gives.
22 For those blessed by Him shall inherit the earth land,
But those cursed by Him shall be cut off.
Psalm 37:29
29 The righteous shall inherit the land,
And dwell in it forever.
Psalm 37:34
Proverbs 2:22
Proverbs 10:30
Isaiah 11:1-6, 9-16 1
Isaiah 61:1-7 LXX (Quoted by Jesus: Matt 3:16-17, 11:5 Luke 4:18-19, 7:22)
Isa 60:19-21 NKJV
21 Also your people shall all be righteous; They shall inherit the land forever, The branch of My planting, The work of My hands, That I may be glorified.
Isaiah 65:9,17 LXX
9 And I will lead forth the Seed from Jacob and Judah, and He shall inherit My holy mountain, and My chosen ones and My servants shall inherit it, and they shall dwell there. ... (Is. 25:8, 35:10, 51:11, 65:19, 1 Corth 15:26, Rev 21:4).
Dan 12:1-13 NKJV
13 "But you, go your way till the end; for you shall rest, and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days."
Acts 7 NKJV
3 and said to him, ‘Get out of your country and from your relatives, and come to a land that I will show you.’ 4 Then he came out of the land of the Chaldeans and dwelt in Haran. And from there, when his father was dead, He moved him to this land in which you now dwell. 5 And God gave him no inheritance in it, not even enough to set his foot on.
Acts 13:32
32 And we declare to you glad tidings—that promise which was made to the fathers.
Acts 23:6
6 But when Paul perceived that one part were Sadducees and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, “Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee; concerning the hope and resurrection of the dead I am being judged!”
Acts 26:6-8 NKJV
6 And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made by God to our fathers. 7 To this promise our twelve tribes, earnestly serving God night and day, hope to attain.
Acts 28:20
20 For this reason therefore I have called for you, to see you and speak with you, because for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.”
Rom. 8:16-25 NKJV
16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs — heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together. 18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. 24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.
Romans 9:1-9
to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; 5 of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen. . .
” 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”
Romans 15:4-13
4 For whatever things were written before were written for our learning, that we through the [a]patience and comfort of the Scriptures might have the hope. . .
8 Now I say that Jesus Christ has become a [c]servant to the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made to the fathers, 9 and that the Gentiles might glorify God for His mercy, as it is written:
Gal 3:16-18-29 NKJV
16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, "And to seeds," as of many, but as of one, "And to your Seed," who is Christ. 17 And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect. 18 For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise. . .
26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Eph 2:8-13, 3:6
11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands— 12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel,
Hebrews 6:12-18
12 that you do not become [a]sluggish, but imitate those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
13 For when God made a promise to Abraham, . . . 17 Thus God, determining to show more abundantly to the heirs of promise the immutability of His counsel, [c]confirmed it by an oath, 18 that by two [d]immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we [e]might have strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold of the hope set before us. 19 This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast, and which enters the Presence behind the veil,
Heb 11:13, 39
13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off [e]were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
39 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise,
Quick side topic of what "hell/shoel/hades/ the grave" is:
When Jesus references Gehenna (NOT the word hell/hades, thank your bible translators for that), that is a proper noun, a literal place here on Earth just south of Jerusalem; it’s also called the Valley of Hinnom or Valley of Tophet. This is a place that has history:
Isaiah 30:33
Jeremiah 7:31-33
Jeremiah 19:2-6
Jesus directed quoted Isaiah 66:22-24 in Mark 9:43-48.
Mark 9:43-48, keep in mind the word hell here is the proper name Gehenna.
43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life [a]maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell (proper noun Gehenna, hell is a horrible translation), into the fire that shall never be quenched— 44 [c]where
‘Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’
Isaiah 66:22-24
22 “For as the new heavens and the new earth (Read Revelation 21)
Which I will make shall remain before Me,” says the Lord,
“So shall your descendants and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass
That from one New Moon to another,
And from one Sabbath to another,
All flesh shall come to worship before Me,” says the Lord.
24 “And they shall go forth and look
Upon the corpses of the men
Who have transgressed against Me.
For their worm does not die,
And their fire is not quenched.
They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”
Psalm 2:6-9 LXX
6 But I have been made King by Him, on Sion His holy mountain, 7 declaring the ordinance of the Lord. The Lord said to Me: “You are My Son, today I have begotten You. 8 Ask of me, and I will give You the nations for Your inheritance, and the ends of the Land for Your possession. 9 You shall shepherd them with a rod of iron; You shall shatter them like a potter's vessel.”
Psalm 2 quoted in the New Testament:
Psalm 2:1, 2 Acts 4:25, 26
Psalm 2:7 Acts 13:33; Hebrews 1:5 ; 5:5
Psalm 2:8, 9 Revelation 2:26, 27; 12:5; 19:15
Psalm 16:5-11 LXX
5 "The Lord is the portion of mine inheritance and of my cup: thou art he that restores my inheritance to me. 6 The lines have fallen to me in the best places, yea, I have a most excellent heritage.
Psalm 16 quoted by Peter Acts 2:25-33 saying it refers to Christ.
Psalm 37:9-11
9 For evildoers shall be cut off;
But those who wait on the Lord,
They shall inherit the earth (Lit. land).
10 For yet a little while and the wicked shall be no more;
Indeed, you will look carefully for his place,
But it shall be no more.
11 But the meek shall inherit the earth (land), (Jesus quotes this Matthew 5:5)
And shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.
Psalm 37:20-22
20 But the wicked shall perish;
And the enemies of the Lord,
Like the splendor of the meadows, shall vanish.
Into smoke they shall vanish away.
21 The wicked borrows and does not repay,
But the righteous shows mercy and gives.
22 For those blessed by Him shall inherit the earth land,
But those cursed by Him shall be cut off.
Psalm 37:29
29 The righteous shall inherit the land,
And dwell in it forever.
Psalm 37:34
Proverbs 2:22
Proverbs 10:30
Isaiah 11:1-6, 9-16 1
Isaiah 61:1-7 LXX (Quoted by Jesus: Matt 3:16-17, 11:5 Luke 4:18-19, 7:22)
Isa 60:19-21 NKJV
21 Also your people shall all be righteous; They shall inherit the land forever, The branch of My planting, The work of My hands, That I may be glorified.
Isaiah 65:9,17 LXX
9 And I will lead forth the Seed from Jacob and Judah, and He shall inherit My holy mountain, and My chosen ones and My servants shall inherit it, and they shall dwell there. ... (Is. 25:8, 35:10, 51:11, 65:19, 1 Corth 15:26, Rev 21:4).
Dan 12:1-13 NKJV
13 "But you, go your way till the end; for you shall rest, and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days."
Acts 7 NKJV
3 and said to him, ‘Get out of your country and from your relatives, and come to a land that I will show you.’ 4 Then he came out of the land of the Chaldeans and dwelt in Haran. And from there, when his father was dead, He moved him to this land in which you now dwell. 5 And God gave him no inheritance in it, not even enough to set his foot on.
Acts 13:32
32 And we declare to you glad tidings—that promise which was made to the fathers.
Acts 23:6
6 But when Paul perceived that one part were Sadducees and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, “Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee; concerning the hope and resurrection of the dead I am being judged!”
Acts 26:6-8 NKJV
6 And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made by God to our fathers. 7 To this promise our twelve tribes, earnestly serving God night and day, hope to attain.
Acts 28:20
20 For this reason therefore I have called for you, to see you and speak with you, because for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.”
Rom. 8:16-25 NKJV
16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs — heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together. 18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. 24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.
Romans 9:1-9
to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; 5 of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen. . .
” 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”
Romans 15:4-13
4 For whatever things were written before were written for our learning, that we through the [a]patience and comfort of the Scriptures might have the hope. . .
8 Now I say that Jesus Christ has become a [c]servant to the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made to the fathers, 9 and that the Gentiles might glorify God for His mercy, as it is written:
Gal 3:16-18-29 NKJV
16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, "And to seeds," as of many, but as of one, "And to your Seed," who is Christ. 17 And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect. 18 For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise. . .
26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Eph 2:8-13, 3:6
11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands— 12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel,
Hebrews 6:12-18
12 that you do not become [a]sluggish, but imitate those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
13 For when God made a promise to Abraham, . . . 17 Thus God, determining to show more abundantly to the heirs of promise the immutability of His counsel, [c]confirmed it by an oath, 18 that by two [d]immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we [e]might have strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold of the hope set before us. 19 This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast, and which enters the Presence behind the veil,
Heb 11:13, 39
13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off [e]were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
39 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise,
Quick side topic of what "hell/shoel/hades/ the grave" is:
When Jesus references Gehenna (NOT the word hell/hades, thank your bible translators for that), that is a proper noun, a literal place here on Earth just south of Jerusalem; it’s also called the Valley of Hinnom or Valley of Tophet. This is a place that has history:
Isaiah 30:33
Jeremiah 7:31-33
Jeremiah 19:2-6
Jesus directed quoted Isaiah 66:22-24 in Mark 9:43-48.
Mark 9:43-48, keep in mind the word hell here is the proper name Gehenna.
43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life [a]maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell (proper noun Gehenna, hell is a horrible translation), into the fire that shall never be quenched— 44 [c]where
‘Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’
Isaiah 66:22-24
22 “For as the new heavens and the new earth (Read Revelation 21)
Which I will make shall remain before Me,” says the Lord,
“So shall your descendants and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass
That from one New Moon to another,
And from one Sabbath to another,
All flesh shall come to worship before Me,” says the Lord.
24 “And they shall go forth and look
Upon the corpses of the men
Who have transgressed against Me.
For their worm does not die,
And their fire is not quenched.
They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”
That is just nonsense. The Bible revealed the imperishability of the soul LONG BEFORE Plato and Aristotle. Plato lived around 350 BC but Abraham lived around 2000 BC. So you are already off base. There would be no point delving further into your errors. So here is the truth:
Then Abraham gave up the ghost, and died in a good old age, an old man, and full of years; and was gathered to his people. (Gen 25:8).
If the soul was not imperishable, this could not have been said. So where did Abraham go? Or more precisely where did the soul and spirit of Abraham go? In the narrative of the Rich Man and Lazarus, WE ARE TOLD PRECISELY that Abraham was in Hades, with the righteous dead. And that he actually spoke to the Rich Man. Since those are the words of Christ, anyone claiming that this is not an actual historical narrative is making Christ a liar.
Immediately after the resurrection of Christ, Jesus took (from Hades in the heart of the earth) all the OT saints (including Abraham) to the New Jerusalem in Heaven. And we know that God had shown a vision of the New Jerusalem to Abraham while he was alive, since the Bible says that Abraham looked for a city which has foundations, whose Builder and Maker is God.
Then Abraham gave up the ghost, and died in a good old age, an old man, and full of years; and was gathered to his people. (Gen 25:8).
If the soul was not imperishable, this could not have been said. So where did Abraham go? Or more precisely where did the soul and spirit of Abraham go? In the narrative of the Rich Man and Lazarus, WE ARE TOLD PRECISELY that Abraham was in Hades, with the righteous dead. And that he actually spoke to the Rich Man. Since those are the words of Christ, anyone claiming that this is not an actual historical narrative is making Christ a liar.
Immediately after the resurrection of Christ, Jesus took (from Hades in the heart of the earth) all the OT saints (including Abraham) to the New Jerusalem in Heaven. And we know that God had shown a vision of the New Jerusalem to Abraham while he was alive, since the Bible says that Abraham looked for a city which has foundations, whose Builder and Maker is God.
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Zechariah 14:16-20
16 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.
Isaiah 25:6-8
And in this mountain
The Lord of hosts will make for all people
A feast of [c]choice pieces,
A feast of [d]wines on the lees,
Of fat things full of marrow,
Of well-refined wines on the lees.
7 And He will destroy on this mountain
The surface of the covering cast over all people,
And the veil that is spread over all nations.
8 He will swallow up death forever, (Rev 21:1-4,1 Corth 15:26, Isaiah 35:10, 51:11, 65:19)
And the Lord God will wipe away tears from all faces;
The rebuke of His people
He will take away from all the earth;
For the Lord has spoken.
Marriage super of the Lamb (Rev 19:6-9) is the Feast of Tabernacles, it's the last and most grandest feast.
ECF/Reformation quotes on the topic of what happens when we die:
Justin and Trypho dialog, Chapter 80. The opinion of Justin about the reign of a thousand years:
For I (Justin) choose to follow not men or men's doctrines, but God and the doctrines [delivered] by Him. For if you have fallen in with some who are called Christians, but who do not admit this [truth], and venture to blaspheme the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob; who say there is no resurrection of the dead, and that their souls, when they die, are taken to heaven; do not imagine that they are Christians, even as one, if he would rightly consider it, would not admit that the Sadducees, or similar sects of Genistæ, Meristæ, Galilæans, Hellenists, Pharisees, Baptists, are Jews (do not hear me impatiently when I tell you what I think), but are [only] called Jews and children of Abraham, worshipping God with the lips, as God Himself declared, but the heart was far from Him. But I and others, who are right-minded Christians on all points, are assured that there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a thousand years in Jerusalem, which will then be built, adorned, and enlarged, [as] the prophets Ezekiel and Isaiah and others declare.
MARTIN LUTHER (1493-1546), German Reformer and Bible translator
Here are sample Luther citations. In the quaint 1573 English translation we read:
“Salomon judgeth that the dead are a sleepe, and feele nothing at all. For the dead lye there accompting neyther dayes nor yeares, but when are awaked, they shall seeme to have slept scarce one minute.” 18 “But we Christians, who have been redeemed from all this through the precious blood of God’s Son, should train and accustom ourselves in faith to despise death and regard it as a deep, strong, sweet sleep; to consider the coffin as nothing other than our Lord Jesus’ bosom or Paradise, the grave as nothing other than a soft couch of ease or rest. As verily, before God, it truly is just this; for he testifies, John 11:11; ‘Lazarus, our friend sleeps’; Matthew 9:24: ‘The maiden is not dead, she sleeps.’ Thus, too, St. Paul in 1 Corinthians 15, removes from sight all hateful aspects of death as related to our mortal body and brings forward nothing but charming and joyful aspects of the promised life. He says there [vv. 42ff]: ‘It is sown in corruption and will rise in incorruption; it is sown in dishonor (that is, a hateful, shameful form) and will rise in glory; it is sown in weakness and will rise in strength; it is sown in natural body and will rise a spiritual body.”19 “Thus after death the soul goes to its bedchamber and to its peace, and while it is sleeping it does not realize its sleep, and God preserves indeed the awakening soul. God is able to awake Elijah, Moses, and others, and so control them, so that they will live. But how can that be? That we do not know; we satisfy ourselves with the example of bodily sleep, and with what God says: it is a sleep, a rest, and a peace. He who sleeps naturally knows nothing of that which happens in his neighbor's house; and nevertheless, he still is living, even though, contrary to the nature of life, he is unconscious in his sleep. Exactly the same will happen also in that life, but in another and a better way. 20”
“We should learn to view our death in the right light, so that we need not become alarmed on account of it, as unbelief does; because in Christ it is indeed not death, but a fine, sweet and brief sleep, which brings us release from this vale of tears, from sin and from the fear and extremity of real death and from all the misfortunes of this life, and we shall be secure and without care, rest sweetly and gently for a brief moment, as on a sofa, until the time when he shall call and awaken us together with all his dear children to his eternal glory and joy. For since we call it a sleep, we know that we shall not remain in it, but be again awakened and live, and that the time during which we sleep, shall seem no longer than if we had just fallen asleep. Hence, we shall censure ourselves that we were surprised or alarmed at such a sleep in the hour of death, and suddenly come alive out of the grave and from decomposition, and entirely well, fresh, with a pure, clear, glorified life, meet our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ in the clouds. … Scripture everywhere affords such consolation, which speaks of the death of the saints, as if they fell asleep and were gathered to their fathers, that is, had overcome death through this faith and comfort in Christ, and awaited the resurrection, together with the saints who preceded them in death.”
WILLIAM TYNDALE (1484-1536), English Bible translator and martyr
“And ye, in putting them (the departed souls) in heaven, hell, and purgatory, destroy the arguments wherewith Christ and Paul prove the resurrection.... And again, if the souls be in heaven, tell me why they be not in as good case as the angels be? And then what cause is there of the resurrection?”
“The true faith putteth (setteth forth) the resurrection, which we be warned to look for every hour. The heathen philosophers, denying that, did put (set forth) that the souls did ever live. And the pope joineth the spiritual doctrine of Christ and the fleshly doctrine of philosophers together; things so contrary that they cannot agree, no more than the Spirit and the flesh do in a Christian man. And because the fleshly-minded pope consenteth unto heathen doctrine, therefore he corrupteth the Scripture to stablish it.”
“Nay, Paul, thou art unlearned; go to Master More, and learn a new way. We be not most miserable, though we rise not again; for our souls go to heaven as soon as we be dead, and are there in as great joy as Christ that is risen again. And I marvel that Paul had not comforted the Thessalonians with that doctrine, if he had wist (known) it, that the souls of their dead had been in joy; as he did with the resurrection, that their dead should rise again. If the souls be in heaven, in as great glory as the angels, after your doctrine, shew me what cause should be of the resurrection).”
In modern terms, what Tyndale is trying to say is, if when you die your ghost goes to heaven and you're in eternal bliss and joy with the Father and Son, and are skipping down a yellow brick road with all your rewards, then what is the point of a resurrection. If the immortality soul doctrine is true, then you make the resurrection of Christ worthless, empty, and meaningless.
It's only through the resurrection and granted access to eat from tree of life (Rev 2:7, 22:1-3 ->Ezekiel 47:1-12) can we sing, worship, love, play, laugh, and be in joy. The tree of life that Adam was kicked out of least he eat and live forever (Gen 3:22).
16 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.
Isaiah 25:6-8
And in this mountain
The Lord of hosts will make for all people
A feast of [c]choice pieces,
A feast of [d]wines on the lees,
Of fat things full of marrow,
Of well-refined wines on the lees.
7 And He will destroy on this mountain
The surface of the covering cast over all people,
And the veil that is spread over all nations.
8 He will swallow up death forever, (Rev 21:1-4,1 Corth 15:26, Isaiah 35:10, 51:11, 65:19)
And the Lord God will wipe away tears from all faces;
The rebuke of His people
He will take away from all the earth;
For the Lord has spoken.
Marriage super of the Lamb (Rev 19:6-9) is the Feast of Tabernacles, it's the last and most grandest feast.
ECF/Reformation quotes on the topic of what happens when we die:
Justin and Trypho dialog, Chapter 80. The opinion of Justin about the reign of a thousand years:
For I (Justin) choose to follow not men or men's doctrines, but God and the doctrines [delivered] by Him. For if you have fallen in with some who are called Christians, but who do not admit this [truth], and venture to blaspheme the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob; who say there is no resurrection of the dead, and that their souls, when they die, are taken to heaven; do not imagine that they are Christians, even as one, if he would rightly consider it, would not admit that the Sadducees, or similar sects of Genistæ, Meristæ, Galilæans, Hellenists, Pharisees, Baptists, are Jews (do not hear me impatiently when I tell you what I think), but are [only] called Jews and children of Abraham, worshipping God with the lips, as God Himself declared, but the heart was far from Him. But I and others, who are right-minded Christians on all points, are assured that there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a thousand years in Jerusalem, which will then be built, adorned, and enlarged, [as] the prophets Ezekiel and Isaiah and others declare.
MARTIN LUTHER (1493-1546), German Reformer and Bible translator
Here are sample Luther citations. In the quaint 1573 English translation we read:
“Salomon judgeth that the dead are a sleepe, and feele nothing at all. For the dead lye there accompting neyther dayes nor yeares, but when are awaked, they shall seeme to have slept scarce one minute.” 18 “But we Christians, who have been redeemed from all this through the precious blood of God’s Son, should train and accustom ourselves in faith to despise death and regard it as a deep, strong, sweet sleep; to consider the coffin as nothing other than our Lord Jesus’ bosom or Paradise, the grave as nothing other than a soft couch of ease or rest. As verily, before God, it truly is just this; for he testifies, John 11:11; ‘Lazarus, our friend sleeps’; Matthew 9:24: ‘The maiden is not dead, she sleeps.’ Thus, too, St. Paul in 1 Corinthians 15, removes from sight all hateful aspects of death as related to our mortal body and brings forward nothing but charming and joyful aspects of the promised life. He says there [vv. 42ff]: ‘It is sown in corruption and will rise in incorruption; it is sown in dishonor (that is, a hateful, shameful form) and will rise in glory; it is sown in weakness and will rise in strength; it is sown in natural body and will rise a spiritual body.”19 “Thus after death the soul goes to its bedchamber and to its peace, and while it is sleeping it does not realize its sleep, and God preserves indeed the awakening soul. God is able to awake Elijah, Moses, and others, and so control them, so that they will live. But how can that be? That we do not know; we satisfy ourselves with the example of bodily sleep, and with what God says: it is a sleep, a rest, and a peace. He who sleeps naturally knows nothing of that which happens in his neighbor's house; and nevertheless, he still is living, even though, contrary to the nature of life, he is unconscious in his sleep. Exactly the same will happen also in that life, but in another and a better way. 20”
“We should learn to view our death in the right light, so that we need not become alarmed on account of it, as unbelief does; because in Christ it is indeed not death, but a fine, sweet and brief sleep, which brings us release from this vale of tears, from sin and from the fear and extremity of real death and from all the misfortunes of this life, and we shall be secure and without care, rest sweetly and gently for a brief moment, as on a sofa, until the time when he shall call and awaken us together with all his dear children to his eternal glory and joy. For since we call it a sleep, we know that we shall not remain in it, but be again awakened and live, and that the time during which we sleep, shall seem no longer than if we had just fallen asleep. Hence, we shall censure ourselves that we were surprised or alarmed at such a sleep in the hour of death, and suddenly come alive out of the grave and from decomposition, and entirely well, fresh, with a pure, clear, glorified life, meet our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ in the clouds. … Scripture everywhere affords such consolation, which speaks of the death of the saints, as if they fell asleep and were gathered to their fathers, that is, had overcome death through this faith and comfort in Christ, and awaited the resurrection, together with the saints who preceded them in death.”
WILLIAM TYNDALE (1484-1536), English Bible translator and martyr
“And ye, in putting them (the departed souls) in heaven, hell, and purgatory, destroy the arguments wherewith Christ and Paul prove the resurrection.... And again, if the souls be in heaven, tell me why they be not in as good case as the angels be? And then what cause is there of the resurrection?”
“The true faith putteth (setteth forth) the resurrection, which we be warned to look for every hour. The heathen philosophers, denying that, did put (set forth) that the souls did ever live. And the pope joineth the spiritual doctrine of Christ and the fleshly doctrine of philosophers together; things so contrary that they cannot agree, no more than the Spirit and the flesh do in a Christian man. And because the fleshly-minded pope consenteth unto heathen doctrine, therefore he corrupteth the Scripture to stablish it.”
“Nay, Paul, thou art unlearned; go to Master More, and learn a new way. We be not most miserable, though we rise not again; for our souls go to heaven as soon as we be dead, and are there in as great joy as Christ that is risen again. And I marvel that Paul had not comforted the Thessalonians with that doctrine, if he had wist (known) it, that the souls of their dead had been in joy; as he did with the resurrection, that their dead should rise again. If the souls be in heaven, in as great glory as the angels, after your doctrine, shew me what cause should be of the resurrection).”
In modern terms, what Tyndale is trying to say is, if when you die your ghost goes to heaven and you're in eternal bliss and joy with the Father and Son, and are skipping down a yellow brick road with all your rewards, then what is the point of a resurrection. If the immortality soul doctrine is true, then you make the resurrection of Christ worthless, empty, and meaningless.
It's only through the resurrection and granted access to eat from tree of life (Rev 2:7, 22:1-3 ->Ezekiel 47:1-12) can we sing, worship, love, play, laugh, and be in joy. The tree of life that Adam was kicked out of least he eat and live forever (Gen 3:22).
The Rich man and Lazarus is a parable, and if you don't understand the OT, you will not understand the meaning of this parable.
A. An allegory about Jesus (Lazarus) and the destruction of Jerusalem & Priesthood (The Rich Man)
1. All of the elements of this allegory/parable are drawn from four OT prophecies, all of which prophesy the destruction of Jerusalem & the priesthood in AD70.
a. Deut. 31:28-30; 32:5,15-29
b. Isaiah 28:1-19; 29:1-14
c. Isaiah 50:6-11
d. Mal. 1:6 – 3:5
B. The Rich Man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31)
1. A allegory/parable, not literal history. One of the earliest manuscripts, Codex Bezae (5th century, Italy), begins vs. 19 as follows: Ειπεν δέ και ετεραν παραβολην – "But He spoke also another parable, ..."
a. The last in a series of parables spoken to the Jewish leadership. (compare Lk. 16:1)
2. The “Rich Man” – the apostate Jewish Priesthood – Levites
a. Justified themselves (Luke 16:15 / Mal. 1:6; 2:14,17; 3:8,13)
b. Improperly divorced wives and remarried (Luke 16:18 / Mal. 2:13-16)
c. “Lovers of money” (Luke 16:14) who had “robbed God” (Mal. 3:8-10).
d. Dressed in purple and fine linen
1. “Purple” was the clothing of kings (Mark 15:17).
2. “Fine linen” was the clothing of priests (Ex. 39:27-29).
3. The Hasmonean Dynasty (from the Maccabees) were “priest-kings,” and continued to rule under Herod the Great.
3. “Lazarus” – Jesus Christ, Greek form of the Hebrew “E’leazar,” means “God is My Help.”
a. A term applied to Jesus several times: (Psalm 22:16-19; Psalm 40:6-17)
b. The name “Lazarus” was drawn directly from Isaiah’s prophecy of Jesus and the destruction of the Levitical priesthood (Isaiah 50:6-7).
4. He came as a “poor beggar,” born in a stable, homeless, dependent on support of others.
a. Luke 9:58; 2 Cor. 8:9
5. Full of “sores” – bearing our diseases and infirmities (Matt. 8:16-17; Isaiah 53:4-5 LXX)
6. The “dogs” – the Gentiles (Matt. 15:22-28)
7. Desiring to eat the crumbs (as a Man, humble food)
8. The beggar died – the crucifixion of Christ.
9. Carried by the angels – His bodily ascension into heaven (Acts 1:9-11, cf. Matt. 24:31)
10. Abraham’s Bosom – The ‘Seed’ of the Abrahamic Covenant
a. A term used in Gen. 16:5 for Abraham’s intimacy with his wife to produce an heir.
b. Lazarus in “Abraham’s bosom” shows that He (Jesus) is the promised Seed.
11. The rich man died afterwards – the destruction of Jerusalem 40 years later in AD 70
a. Priesthood demolished – Deut. 32:19-22; Isaiah 28-29; Isaiah 50:11; Mal. 1:6 – 3:12
12. “In Hades” – refers to the priesthood in exile from the Land & Temple. a. “Hades” is the “grave” of humanity (Num. 16:33; 1 Kings 2:9; Ezek. 32:27; 1 Cor. 15:55).
b. The unfaithful priesthood punished in “Hades” (Deut. 32:19-22; Isa. 28:15,18; 29:4).
13. Tormented in the flames – God’s wrath (Deut. 32:19-22; Isa. 50:11; Mal. 3:2-3).
14. Send Lazarus to bring relief – Send the Messiah to restore Israel (Hosannah – “save now”)
15. The Great Gulf – the blindness imposed on Israel (Isa. 6:9-13; Matt. 13:10-15; Rom. 11:7-10).
16. Five Brothers – the other 5 tribes of Israel from the same mother – Leah
a. Levi had 5 brothers: Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Issachar, Zebulun (Gen. 30).
17. If they will not hear Moses, they will not hear the One who rose from the dead – Jesus.
a. No sign would be given to that wicked generation (Mark 8:11-12). (sign of Johan)
b. Jesus refused to show Himself resurrected to unbelievers (Jn. 14:19-20; 1 Cor. 15:3-8)
A. An allegory about Jesus (Lazarus) and the destruction of Jerusalem & Priesthood (The Rich Man)
1. All of the elements of this allegory/parable are drawn from four OT prophecies, all of which prophesy the destruction of Jerusalem & the priesthood in AD70.
a. Deut. 31:28-30; 32:5,15-29
b. Isaiah 28:1-19; 29:1-14
c. Isaiah 50:6-11
d. Mal. 1:6 – 3:5
B. The Rich Man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31)
1. A allegory/parable, not literal history. One of the earliest manuscripts, Codex Bezae (5th century, Italy), begins vs. 19 as follows: Ειπεν δέ και ετεραν παραβολην – "But He spoke also another parable, ..."
a. The last in a series of parables spoken to the Jewish leadership. (compare Lk. 16:1)
2. The “Rich Man” – the apostate Jewish Priesthood – Levites
a. Justified themselves (Luke 16:15 / Mal. 1:6; 2:14,17; 3:8,13)
b. Improperly divorced wives and remarried (Luke 16:18 / Mal. 2:13-16)
c. “Lovers of money” (Luke 16:14) who had “robbed God” (Mal. 3:8-10).
d. Dressed in purple and fine linen
1. “Purple” was the clothing of kings (Mark 15:17).
2. “Fine linen” was the clothing of priests (Ex. 39:27-29).
3. The Hasmonean Dynasty (from the Maccabees) were “priest-kings,” and continued to rule under Herod the Great.
3. “Lazarus” – Jesus Christ, Greek form of the Hebrew “E’leazar,” means “God is My Help.”
a. A term applied to Jesus several times: (Psalm 22:16-19; Psalm 40:6-17)
b. The name “Lazarus” was drawn directly from Isaiah’s prophecy of Jesus and the destruction of the Levitical priesthood (Isaiah 50:6-7).
4. He came as a “poor beggar,” born in a stable, homeless, dependent on support of others.
a. Luke 9:58; 2 Cor. 8:9
5. Full of “sores” – bearing our diseases and infirmities (Matt. 8:16-17; Isaiah 53:4-5 LXX)
6. The “dogs” – the Gentiles (Matt. 15:22-28)
7. Desiring to eat the crumbs (as a Man, humble food)
8. The beggar died – the crucifixion of Christ.
9. Carried by the angels – His bodily ascension into heaven (Acts 1:9-11, cf. Matt. 24:31)
10. Abraham’s Bosom – The ‘Seed’ of the Abrahamic Covenant
a. A term used in Gen. 16:5 for Abraham’s intimacy with his wife to produce an heir.
b. Lazarus in “Abraham’s bosom” shows that He (Jesus) is the promised Seed.
11. The rich man died afterwards – the destruction of Jerusalem 40 years later in AD 70
a. Priesthood demolished – Deut. 32:19-22; Isaiah 28-29; Isaiah 50:11; Mal. 1:6 – 3:12
12. “In Hades” – refers to the priesthood in exile from the Land & Temple. a. “Hades” is the “grave” of humanity (Num. 16:33; 1 Kings 2:9; Ezek. 32:27; 1 Cor. 15:55).
b. The unfaithful priesthood punished in “Hades” (Deut. 32:19-22; Isa. 28:15,18; 29:4).
13. Tormented in the flames – God’s wrath (Deut. 32:19-22; Isa. 50:11; Mal. 3:2-3).
14. Send Lazarus to bring relief – Send the Messiah to restore Israel (Hosannah – “save now”)
15. The Great Gulf – the blindness imposed on Israel (Isa. 6:9-13; Matt. 13:10-15; Rom. 11:7-10).
16. Five Brothers – the other 5 tribes of Israel from the same mother – Leah
a. Levi had 5 brothers: Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Issachar, Zebulun (Gen. 30).
17. If they will not hear Moses, they will not hear the One who rose from the dead – Jesus.
a. No sign would be given to that wicked generation (Mark 8:11-12). (sign of Johan)
b. Jesus refused to show Himself resurrected to unbelievers (Jn. 14:19-20; 1 Cor. 15:3-8)
Just quit trying to pervert the truth. I have already shown that according to Christ Himself this is not a parable but a historical record. If you do not believe Him in this, then your really do not believe on Him.
ALSO POSTING WALLS OF POSTS DOES NOT NECESSARILY VALIDATE YOUR ERRORS.
ALSO POSTING WALLS OF POSTS DOES NOT NECESSARILY VALIDATE YOUR ERRORS.
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I had to make separate post due to length, but I addressed this in the posts that came after your posts. However, here it is.
The issuse is you are assuming that your translation of kjv is correct when it says "ghost", what you're not realizing is the translator bias that is involed in translations in which a translators theological position is being forced onto the text in order for his translation to fit with his theology.
From a bible program:
Gen 25:8 Then AbrahamH85 gave up the ghost,H1478 and diedH4191 in a goodH2896 old age,H7872 an old man,H2205 and fullH7649 of years; and was gatheredH622 toH413 his people.H5971
H1478
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/h1478/kjv/wlc/0-1/
Below are all the verses when the bible uses that word (H1478), it's inconsistently translated. You can easily translate it ' Then Abraham died" or "He breathed his last", as the NKJV has it:
NKJV
Gen 25:8 Then Abraham breathed his last and died in a good old age, an old man and full of years, and was gathered to his people.
Gen_6:17
Gen_7:21
Gen_25:8
Gen_25:17
Gen_35:29
Gen_49:33
Num_17:12
Num_17:13
Num_20:3
Num_20:29
Jos_22:20
Job_3:11
Job_10:18
Job_13:19
Job_14:10
Job_27:5
Job_29:18
Job_34:15
Job_36:12
Psa_88:15
Psa_104:29
Lam_1:19
Zec_13:8
Please read the remainder of the posts, no one is in "heaven". The "New Jerusalem", first the word new means restored not brand new. Second, if people are in heaven as you say, then they must be looking at the dead corpses of men who transgressed against god, they also must be keeping the Sabbaths and Feast days:
Isaiah 66:22-24
“For as the new heavens and the new earth
Which I will make shall remain before Me,” says the Lord,
“So shall your descendants and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass
That from one New Moon to another,
And from one Sabbath to another,
All flesh shall come to worship before Me,” says the Lord.
24 “And they shall go forth and look
Upon the corpses of the men
Who have transgressed against Me.
For their worm does not die,
And their fire is not quenched.
They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”
Quoted by Jesus in Mark 9:42-48, 3 times:
42 “But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea. 43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life [j]maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to [k]hell (Gehenna, just south of Jerusalem), into the fire that shall never be quenched— 44 [l]where
‘Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’
45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into [m]hell, [n]into the fire that shall never be quenched— 46 where
‘Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’
47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into [o]hell fire— 48 where
‘Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’
The issuse is you are assuming that your translation of kjv is correct when it says "ghost", what you're not realizing is the translator bias that is involed in translations in which a translators theological position is being forced onto the text in order for his translation to fit with his theology.
From a bible program:
Gen 25:8 Then AbrahamH85 gave up the ghost,H1478 and diedH4191 in a goodH2896 old age,H7872 an old man,H2205 and fullH7649 of years; and was gatheredH622 toH413 his people.H5971
H1478
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/h1478/kjv/wlc/0-1/
Below are all the verses when the bible uses that word (H1478), it's inconsistently translated. You can easily translate it ' Then Abraham died" or "He breathed his last", as the NKJV has it:
NKJV
Gen 25:8 Then Abraham breathed his last and died in a good old age, an old man and full of years, and was gathered to his people.
Gen_6:17
Gen_7:21
Gen_25:8
Gen_25:17
Gen_35:29
Gen_49:33
Num_17:12
Num_17:13
Num_20:3
Num_20:29
Jos_22:20
Job_3:11
Job_10:18
Job_13:19
Job_14:10
Job_27:5
Job_29:18
Job_34:15
Job_36:12
Psa_88:15
Psa_104:29
Lam_1:19
Zec_13:8
Please read the remainder of the posts, no one is in "heaven". The "New Jerusalem", first the word new means restored not brand new. Second, if people are in heaven as you say, then they must be looking at the dead corpses of men who transgressed against god, they also must be keeping the Sabbaths and Feast days:
Isaiah 66:22-24
“For as the new heavens and the new earth
Which I will make shall remain before Me,” says the Lord,
“So shall your descendants and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass
That from one New Moon to another,
And from one Sabbath to another,
All flesh shall come to worship before Me,” says the Lord.
24 “And they shall go forth and look
Upon the corpses of the men
Who have transgressed against Me.
For their worm does not die,
And their fire is not quenched.
They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”
Quoted by Jesus in Mark 9:42-48, 3 times:
42 “But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea. 43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life [j]maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to [k]hell (Gehenna, just south of Jerusalem), into the fire that shall never be quenched— 44 [l]where
‘Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’
45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into [m]hell, [n]into the fire that shall never be quenched— 46 where
‘Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’
47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into [o]hell fire— 48 where
‘Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’
https://christianchat.com/threads/the-rich-man-and-lazarus.207492/post-4925494
So are you therefore saying there is no afterlife?
While I agree with some of the symbolism you draw out in post
#348
Your other posts are unclear can you just state it clearly, are you asserting soul sleep or something like that?
While I agree with some of the symbolism you draw out in post
#348
Your other posts are unclear can you just state it clearly, are you asserting soul sleep or something like that?
The unsaved dead don't speak from or in the grave.
Psalm 115:17
The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence.
No OT saints where in Hades.
2 Corinthians 5:8
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
Matthew 17:2,3
2 And was transfigured (Jesus) before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
Psalm 115:17
The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence.
No OT saints where in Hades.
2 Corinthians 5:8
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
Matthew 17:2,3
2 And was transfigured (Jesus) before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
If by after life you mean immediately upon death, no. The "after life" is via the resurrection (ex: Ezekiel 37) when Christ returns and sets up his King here on earth in Jerusalem as king of the nations (Psalm 2), in the promised land which was promised to Abraham and his Seed (Gal 3:16-29) with access to the tree of life (Rev 2:3) that will flow from the temple (Ezekiel 47:1-12 -> Rev 22:1-3). Christ is coming to us and will dwell with us and he brings the reward with him (Rev 22:12 ->Isaiah 40:10, 60:11), we don't go to him (Rev 21:3 ->Ezekiel 37:27); our reward is not in the unknown realm that is commonly called "heaven".
Another example people will bring up are "mansions" Jesus is preparing (John 14:2); bad translation. That word simply means chambers or dwellings. In the temple there were apartments where those who were serving in the temple would stay (John's father had the 8th rotation, Luke 1:8). "My Father house" throughout the OT was always the temple. We see an example of these chambers/dwellings in Ezekiel 40:17, which is in the future after the resurrection (Ez 37).
The tree of life that Adam was barred access to, least he eat and live forever. In other words, our ability to life forever/eternal, is by eating from the tree of life; it goes all the way back to Genesis which means we are not inherently immortal, we are dependent on eating from the tree of life.
So yes, people have labeled death as "soul sleep".
Another example people will bring up are "mansions" Jesus is preparing (John 14:2); bad translation. That word simply means chambers or dwellings. In the temple there were apartments where those who were serving in the temple would stay (John's father had the 8th rotation, Luke 1:8). "My Father house" throughout the OT was always the temple. We see an example of these chambers/dwellings in Ezekiel 40:17, which is in the future after the resurrection (Ez 37).
The tree of life that Adam was barred access to, least he eat and live forever. In other words, our ability to life forever/eternal, is by eating from the tree of life; it goes all the way back to Genesis which means we are not inherently immortal, we are dependent on eating from the tree of life.
So yes, people have labeled death as "soul sleep".
More:
Psalm 31:17
Let me not be ashamed, O Lord; for I have called upon thee: let the wicked be ashamed, and let them be silent in the grave.
Psalm 31:17
Let me not be ashamed, O Lord; for I have called upon thee: let the wicked be ashamed, and let them be silent in the grave.
All the dead both righteous and wicked are in hades/sheol/hell/the grave. It's consistent throughout the bible. The word hell/hades doesn't mean a fiery place of torment. I just means pit/grave/the place of those that have died. Jesus said the wicked are tossed into Gehenna (a proper noun of a physical place on earth just south of Jerusalem); bible translators do a disservice when they see word work Gehenna in Greek and translate English to hell (Mark 9:43 is a prime example)
Moses and Elijah:
I knew this was going to happen, there are about 6 verses people use, 5 in the NT to try and "prove" that people are in heaven, Moses and Elijah are one of them Paul being "absent from the body," being another.
Please read the entire passage and compare its counter part Luke 9:28-35. It was a vision of the future, not of something that was literally occurring 2,000 years ago.
Matt 17:9
9 Now as they came down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, “Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man is risen from the dead.”
Luke 9:28-35
28 Now it came to pass, about eight days after these sayings, that He took Peter, John, and James and went up on the mountain to pray. 29 As He prayed, the appearance of His face was altered, and His robe became white and glistening. 30 And behold, two men talked with Him, who were Moses and Elijah, 31 who appeared in glory and spoke of His [a]decease which He was about to accomplish at Jerusalem. 32 But Peter and those with him were heavy with sleep; and when they were fully awake, they saw His glory and the two men who stood with Him. 33 Then it happened, as they were parting from Him, that Peter said to Jesus, “Master, it is good for us to be here; and let us make three tabernacles: one for You, one for Moses, and one for Elijah”—not knowing what he said.
34 While he was saying this, a cloud came and overshadowed them; and they were fearful as they entered the cloud. 35 And a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is [c]My beloved Son. Hear Him!”
I don't want to overwhelm the post, but do a word search in your NT on "glory" it is a term that is used for a state of being at resurrection and not before. Christ didn't become glorified until after he rose from the dead. His appearance being altered and clothing changing is also seen in the future at his second coming (ex:Rev 1:13-4). No on has been resurrected because Christ has not yet returned, therefore Moses and Elijah are also not yet in their glorified state (as seen in the vision).
The 2 Corth 5 post is a bit harder to explain only because of terminology/translation. For example, the word body, does it mean a physical body, sure it could. Could it also mean something else, sure, and do we have examples of when Paul talked about a "body" but wasn't referring to a physical body, yes, the body of Christ.
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body (of Christ), and to be present with the Lord (resurrection which he states in 4:14-18).
6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body (of Christ) we are absent from the Lord (because he is in heaven and not with us as it will be in the resurrection).
And notice what that verse DOESN'T say, it doesn't say "to be absent from the body IS TO BE present with the Lord," even though that is how it's common paraphrased in Christian songs and speech and how it is understood.
Paul isn't comparing being in his physical body now and what it would be like if he dies and goes to heaven to be with the Lord. Paul is comparing the body of Christ now versus the resurrection.
In fact, along with the word glory, do a word search in your NT on the word body, it almost always refers to the body of Christ (usually by Paul).
Start back in 2 Corth 4:12, it's a line of argumentation in which he points to the resurrection (14) and our hope of glory(17), which are not yet seen (18) because we have not yet be resurrected.
Moses and Elijah:
I knew this was going to happen, there are about 6 verses people use, 5 in the NT to try and "prove" that people are in heaven, Moses and Elijah are one of them Paul being "absent from the body," being another.
Please read the entire passage and compare its counter part Luke 9:28-35. It was a vision of the future, not of something that was literally occurring 2,000 years ago.
Matt 17:9
9 Now as they came down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, “Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man is risen from the dead.”
Luke 9:28-35
28 Now it came to pass, about eight days after these sayings, that He took Peter, John, and James and went up on the mountain to pray. 29 As He prayed, the appearance of His face was altered, and His robe became white and glistening. 30 And behold, two men talked with Him, who were Moses and Elijah, 31 who appeared in glory and spoke of His [a]decease which He was about to accomplish at Jerusalem. 32 But Peter and those with him were heavy with sleep; and when they were fully awake, they saw His glory and the two men who stood with Him. 33 Then it happened, as they were parting from Him, that Peter said to Jesus, “Master, it is good for us to be here; and let us make three tabernacles: one for You, one for Moses, and one for Elijah”—not knowing what he said.
34 While he was saying this, a cloud came and overshadowed them; and they were fearful as they entered the cloud. 35 And a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is [c]My beloved Son. Hear Him!”
I don't want to overwhelm the post, but do a word search in your NT on "glory" it is a term that is used for a state of being at resurrection and not before. Christ didn't become glorified until after he rose from the dead. His appearance being altered and clothing changing is also seen in the future at his second coming (ex:Rev 1:13-4). No on has been resurrected because Christ has not yet returned, therefore Moses and Elijah are also not yet in their glorified state (as seen in the vision).
The 2 Corth 5 post is a bit harder to explain only because of terminology/translation. For example, the word body, does it mean a physical body, sure it could. Could it also mean something else, sure, and do we have examples of when Paul talked about a "body" but wasn't referring to a physical body, yes, the body of Christ.
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body (of Christ), and to be present with the Lord (resurrection which he states in 4:14-18).
6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body (of Christ) we are absent from the Lord (because he is in heaven and not with us as it will be in the resurrection).
And notice what that verse DOESN'T say, it doesn't say "to be absent from the body IS TO BE present with the Lord," even though that is how it's common paraphrased in Christian songs and speech and how it is understood.
Paul isn't comparing being in his physical body now and what it would be like if he dies and goes to heaven to be with the Lord. Paul is comparing the body of Christ now versus the resurrection.
In fact, along with the word glory, do a word search in your NT on the word body, it almost always refers to the body of Christ (usually by Paul).
Start back in 2 Corth 4:12, it's a line of argumentation in which he points to the resurrection (14) and our hope of glory(17), which are not yet seen (18) because we have not yet be resurrected.
I'm so sorry, I missed the part that you underlined in blue; I need to address that.
"Then Abraham gave up the ghost, and died in a good old age, an old man, and full of years; and was gathered to his people. (Gen 25:8)."
Abraham gathering to his people was the place of the death where he was buried, that is, along side his family; we still do this today:
Genesis 23
23 Sarah lived one hundred and twenty-seven years; these were the years of the life of Sarah. 2 So Sarah died in Kirjath Arba (that is, Hebron) in the land of Canaan, and Abraham came to mourn for Sarah and to weep for her.
3 Then Abraham stood up from before his dead, and spoke to the sons of Heth, saying, 4 “I am a foreigner and a visitor among you. Give me property for a burial place among you, that I may bury my dead out of my sight.”
Genesis 25:9
9 And his sons Isaac and Ishmael buried him in the cave of Machpelah, which is before Mamre, in the field of Ephron the son of Zohar the Hittite,
Genesis 35:27-29
27 Then Jacob came to his father Isaac at Mamre, or Kirjath Arba[e] (that is, Hebron), where Abraham and Isaac had dwelt. 28 Now the days of Isaac were one hundred and eighty years. 29 So Isaac breathed his last and died, and was gathered to his people, being old and full of days. And his sons Esau and Jacob buried him.
Genesis 49:3131
There they buried Abraham and Sarah his wife, there they buried Isaac and Rebekah his wife, and there I buried Leah.
In fact the hope of the future resurrection was so important to them that Joseph wanted his bones moved into the promise land so that when he was resurrected, he would already be there (it's like wanting to be first in line). If the reward was in "heaven" via a ghost, why would Joseph want his bones moved into the promised land?
Gen 50:24,25
24 And Joseph said to his brethren, “I am dying; but God will surely visit you, and bring you out of this land to the land of which He swore to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob.” 25 Then Joseph took an oath from the children of Israel, saying, “God will surely [e]visit you, and you shall carry up my bones from here.” 26 So Joseph died, being one hundred and ten years old; and they embalmed him, and he was put in a coffin in Egypt.
Exodus 13:19
19 And Moses took the bones of Joseph with him, for he had placed the children of Israel under solemn oath, saying, “God will surely [a]visit you, and you shall carry up my bones from here with you.”
Joshua 24:32
32 The bones of Joseph, which the children of Israel had brought up out of Egypt, they buried at Shechem, in the plot of ground which Jacob had bought from the sons of Hamor the father of Shechem for one hundred [a]pieces of silver, and which had become an inheritance of the children of Joseph.
Jesus is telling the truth:
But concerning the dead, that they rise, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the burning bush passage, how God spoke to him, saying, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living. You are therefore greatly mistaken!
(Mark 12:26-27)
(Mark 12:26-27)
Did you actually read all that I wrote in pervious posts or just that last post? If not please go back and read them. I don't want to repeat previous posts. This is another cherry picked verse without an OT foundation.
Mark 12:20-27, the question is regarding marriage and husband & wives in the kingdom; it's not a theological explanation to whether not people are "living in heaven".
On top of that, the question is being ask regarding the resurrection, not ghost ascension.
The Sadducees didn't believe in the resurrection. I'm sorry, but you are striping it from context. Jesus is saying that the Sadducees who didn't believe in the resurrection are wrong and that God is the God if living not the dead, that is, there is a resurrection of the dead and we will be alive again and He will be our God.
18 Then some Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to Him; and they asked Him, saying: 19 “Teacher, Moses wrote to us that if a man’s brother dies, and leaves his wife behind, and leaves no children, his brother should take his wife and raise up offspring for his brother.
20 Now there were seven brothers. The first took a wife; and dying, he left no offspring. 21 And the second took her, and he died; nor did he leave any offspring. And the third likewise. 22 So the seven had her and left no offspring. Last of all the woman died also. 23 Therefore, in the resurrection, when they rise, whose wife will she be? For all seven had her as wife.”
24 Jesus answered and said to them, “Are you not therefore [a]mistaken, because you do not know the Scriptures nor the power of God? 25 For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. 26 But concerning the dead, that they rise, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the burning bush passage, how God spoke to him, saying, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? 27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living. You are therefore greatly mistaken.”
If you say that the fathers are all in "heaven" then please explain why it says the only person who went to heaven is He who came down from heaven, that is the Son. Which would exclude every person who has ever lived.
John 3:13
13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man [a]who is in heaven.
Please also explain why it say David didn't ascend to heaven and is buried in his tomb:
29 “Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, 31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore being exalted [j]to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.
34 “For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself:
Mark 12:20-27, the question is regarding marriage and husband & wives in the kingdom; it's not a theological explanation to whether not people are "living in heaven".
On top of that, the question is being ask regarding the resurrection, not ghost ascension.
The Sadducees didn't believe in the resurrection. I'm sorry, but you are striping it from context. Jesus is saying that the Sadducees who didn't believe in the resurrection are wrong and that God is the God if living not the dead, that is, there is a resurrection of the dead and we will be alive again and He will be our God.
18 Then some Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to Him; and they asked Him, saying: 19 “Teacher, Moses wrote to us that if a man’s brother dies, and leaves his wife behind, and leaves no children, his brother should take his wife and raise up offspring for his brother.
20 Now there were seven brothers. The first took a wife; and dying, he left no offspring. 21 And the second took her, and he died; nor did he leave any offspring. And the third likewise. 22 So the seven had her and left no offspring. Last of all the woman died also. 23 Therefore, in the resurrection, when they rise, whose wife will she be? For all seven had her as wife.”
24 Jesus answered and said to them, “Are you not therefore [a]mistaken, because you do not know the Scriptures nor the power of God? 25 For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. 26 But concerning the dead, that they rise, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the burning bush passage, how God spoke to him, saying, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? 27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living. You are therefore greatly mistaken.”
If you say that the fathers are all in "heaven" then please explain why it says the only person who went to heaven is He who came down from heaven, that is the Son. Which would exclude every person who has ever lived.
John 3:13
13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man [a]who is in heaven.
Please also explain why it say David didn't ascend to heaven and is buried in his tomb:
29 “Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, 31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore being exalted [j]to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.
34 “For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself: