"The rich man And Lazarus..."

[PeacefulWarrior]

You missed the entire point. Where did the "four winds" breathe into? "into the FLESH of those men to make them live again". And you missed it completely!!! The "flesh" refers always to the body, and never to the soul, which is immaterial and not of flesh.


Let's be clear. The Bible teaches that the resurrected bodies of the unsaved will be destroyed in the LOF and their souls will "be tormented day and night, for ever and ever."

There couldn't be a more clear statement about that.


Well, wrong again. In EVERY description of "resurrection", it is the BODY that will be resurrected. What verse do you think refers to souls being resurrected?

And if that were true, then you must believe in soul sleep or soul death. Show me anywhere in the Bible where that is described.


The body. The body. The body.

You want a verse that demonstrates soul sleep? Sure.

Job 14:10-12

10 But man dies and [a]is laid away;
Indeed he breathes his last
And where is he?
11 As water disappears from the sea,
And a river becomes parched and dries up,
12 So man lies down and does not rise.
Till the heavens are no more,
They will not awake
Nor be roused from their sleep.

It's funny that even my Thomas Nelson NKJV since 1798 center column reference links Job 14:10-12 with Isaiah 51:6 and 65:17, 66:22; that is, they wouldnt be roused from their sleep until the heavens are no more (Second coming). I even colored them so you can see the connection.

Is 65:9
9I will bring forth descendants from Jacob,
And from Judah an heir of My mountains;
My elect shall inherit it,
And My servants shall dwell there.

Is 65:17-19
For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;
And the former shall not be remembered or [f]come to mind.
18 But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create;
For behold, I create Jerusalem as a rejoicing,
And her people a joy.
19 I will rejoice in Jerusalem,
And joy in My people;
The voice of weeping shall no longer be heard in her,
Nor the voice of crying.

Is 66:22-24
For as the new heavens and the new earth
Which I will make shall remain before Me,” says the Lord,
“So shall your descendants and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass
That from one New Moon to another (Feast days),
And from one Sabbath to another,
All flesh shall come to worship before Me,” says the Lord.

24 “And they shall go forth and look
Upon the corpses of the men
Who have transgressed against Me.
For their worm does not die,
And their fire is not quenched.
They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”

Mark 9:42-44, Jesus says the wicked will be tossed into Gehenna which is south of Jerusalem which is in the "New Heavens and New earth, by quoting Is 66))

42 “But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea. 43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life [j]maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to [k]hell (Gehenna, just south of Jerusalem), into the fire that shall never be quenched— 44 [l]where

‘Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’

Revelation 21

21 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, [a]John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying.

Zech 14:16
16 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

Is 25:6-9
And in this mountain
The Lord of hosts will make for all people
A feast of [c]choice pieces,
A feast of [d]wines on the lees,
Of fat things full of marrow,
Of well-refined wines on the lees.
7 And He will destroy on this mountain
The surface of the covering cast over all people,
And the veil that is spread over all nations.
8 He will swallow up death forever,
And the Lord God will wipe away tears from all faces;

Is 35:10
And the ransomed of the Lord shall return,
And come to Zion with singing,
With everlasting joy on their heads.
They shall obtain joy and gladness,
And sorrow and sighing shall flee away.

Is 51:11
So the ransomed of the Lord shall return,
And come to Zion with singing,
With everlasting joy on their heads.
They shall obtain joy and gladness;
Sorrow and sighing shall flee away.

1 Corth 15:26
26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.

Revelation 20:13,14
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire.

 

[Snacks]

On top of what I said in my last post, what is the context of the statement the thief said to Jesus?

Luke 23:39-43

39 Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, [a]“If You are the Christ, save Yourself and us.”

40 But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, “Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong.” 42 Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.”

43 And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

The hope, like all others including the thief wasn't to immediately ascend to heaven after death; it was the hope of the future kingdom, Christ second coming... the hope of being resurrected and eating from the tree of life... the hope of inheriting the promised land and sitting down with the fathers

Matthew 8:11-12

11 And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12

Acts 7
4 Then he came out of the land of the Chaldeans and dwelt in Haran. And from there, when his father was dead, He moved him to this land in which you now dwell. 5 And God gave him no inheritance in it, not even enough to set his foot on.


Acts 13:32
32 And we declare to you glad tidings—that promise which was made to the fathers.

Acts 23:6

6 But when Paul perceived that one part were Sadducees and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, “Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee; concerning the hope and resurrection of the dead I am being judged!”

Acts 26:6-8 NKJV
6 And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made by God to our fathers. 7 To this promise our twelve tribes, earnestly serving God night and day, hope to attain.

Acts 28:20
20 For this reason therefore I have called for you, to see you and speak with you, because for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.”

In the pervious post, I started in Genesis of the promise made my God and bunny trailed the OT prophecies (Psalm, Isaiah, Ezekiel etc. and the rolled into the NT, to show what "the hope" or "the promise" of all believers has always been the same.

I agree with what you’re saying about all the promises, however you did not adequately respond to my initial post to you. I appreciate your passion but don’t feel the need to correspond with you directly because your posts are too long and scattered. But thank you for the time anyway.

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

I agree with what you’re saying about all the promises, however you did not adequately respond to my initial post to you. I appreciate your passion but don’t feel the need to correspond with you directly because your posts are too long and scattered. But thank you for the time anyway.

Cannot honestly have a open and good discussion on the Bible without getting in depth, sorry if it's long, but it's kinda of necessary.

Let me give it one more shot:

If you are writing in English and you want to convey to the reader that the thief on the cross was going to be in Paradise on the very day Jesus made the promise, how would it be written?

1. "And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

If however you wanted to convey to the reader that the Jesus was promising to the thief on that day that in the future, at the coming of His Kingdom ("Remember me when You come to your Kingdom"), how would it be written?

2. "And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you today, you will be with Me in Paradise.”

In the first instance, Jesus is telling the thief he will be with him in Paradise on that day. In the second, Jesus is promising the thief on that day that the thief will be in Paradise, but it doesn't say when, other than it will be in the future.

In other words, Jesus who will Judge us all (not the Father, John 5:22-24) is judging the thief on that very day. Because if everyone remains dead and sleep until the resurrection, NO ONE has been judged yet.

This gets into a philosophical conundrum from those who believe that people are in heaven/hell right now. Because all judgement is done by the Son, and the Son judges no one until His second coming, so how can people be judged to go to heaven/hell at their death if the Son has not yet come?

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

I agree with what you’re saying about all the promises, however you did not adequately respond to my initial post to you. I appreciate your passion but don’t feel the need to correspond with you directly because your posts are too long and scattered. But thank you for the time anyway.

Let me add this because I don't know what you do or don't know.

There are two resurrections. First are the believers who will then be given their rewards (each judged accordingly) and the second (each judged accordingly. All those wicked who have died since Adam, remain dead until the second resurrection which is after the 1,000 years; you can call it the resurrection and judgement of the wicked.

Rev 20
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for [a]a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

1 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before [c]God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second [d]death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

The Son's judgement of the thief on the cross was the exception to the rule, almost like giving him peace right before he was about to breath his last breath.

 

[Magenta]

Yet again, reading the Bible through a Greek lens; assuming your English translation properly conveys the meaning of words.

Verse in question:
Revelation 20:10

10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where[a] the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Rev 20:10 AndG2532 theG3588 devilG1228 that deceivedG4105 themG846 was castG906 intoG1519 theG3588 lakeG3041 of fireG4442 andG2532 brimstone,G2303 whereG3699 theG3588 beastG2342 andG2532 theG3588 false prophetG5578 are, andG2532 shall be tormentedG928 dayG2250 andG2532 nightG3571 for ever and ever.G1519 G165 G165

How the bible uses the word aion doesn't mean a never ending amount of time; it means until the end of the age, but until you actually look at the 415 times that word is used and how it is used, you will continue to think it means "forever and ever", that is, an infinite amount of time.

Strong's Number G165 matches the Greek αἰών (aiōn),
which occurs 415 times in 351 verses in the LXX Greek.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g165/kjv/tr/0-1/
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g165/kjv/lxx/0-1/#lexResults

For example, did the Levitical priest continue forever? Well that word "everlasting" is the word aion. Have fun.

Exo 40:15

And thou shalt anoint them, as thou didst anoint their father, that they may minister unto me in the priest's office: for their anointing shall surely be an everlasting priesthood throughout their generations.

Forever/Eon

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
You missed the entire point. Where did the "four winds" breathe into? "into the FLESH of those men to make them live again". And you missed it completely!!! The "flesh" refers always to the body, and never to the soul, which is immaterial and not of flesh.

So you're telling me the four winds was oxygen?

Look above. Why would you think that? And why are you trying to change the subject so you don't have to face reality?

What would be the purpose of resurrecting the bodies of unsaved people just to destroy them?

You'll have to ask God that question. Here is the proof that unbelievers will be resurrected. But NOT with glorified bodies.

Dan 12:2 - Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
John 5:28,29
28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice
29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.
Actss 24:15 -
and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

You see, I SAY what the Bible SAYS.

Do we agree that at the last day the bodies of the saved souls with Christ in heaven will be resurrected? If we agree, then that passage I posted said that those saints would live with Christ for 1000 years.

Jesus will bring with Him all the dead saints from Adam forward at the 2nd Advent and resurrect their bodies, glorified bodies. Those who are alive and remain will be "changed in the twinkling of the eye" and have glorified bodies too.

Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Is the 1000 years eternity? Do those 1000 years end?

The 1,000 years is the Millennial Reign of King Jesus on earth, when He comes back at the Second Advent. At the end of the 1,000 year reign, Satan will be released from prison, deceive the world again and be defeated and thrown into the LOF. All unbelievers on earth at that time will be killed. Then, all unbelievers will be resurrected into their mortal bodies to attend the GWT judgment, after which all of them will be cast into the LOF.

If the 1000 years are not eternity and the 1000 years end then the first resurrection can not be at the last day, Judgment day.

There are 2 resurrections, and actually, more than 1 "last day". All depends on context.
There is a "last day" of the 7 year Tribulation.
There is a "last day" of the Millennial Reign.

I believe what the Bible tells me.
Genesis 2:17
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

But, do you even know what that verse says in the original? Most likely not. For, if you did, you would know that the Lord told Adam of two deaths "on that day".

Lit: "for in the day that you eat of it DYING, you shall surely DIE.

The first "dying" refers to the slow progressive physical death of the body. The Second DIE refers to immediate spiritual death of the human spirit, which means all humans born into this world are born with a dead human spirit

Recall what Jesus told the woman at the well. In order to worship God, one must worship in spirit (human) and in truth.

Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Go back to v.5 and see that believers (tribulation martyrs) will be resurrected when Christ comes back and they will reign with Him. That is what is meant by "first resurrection". The resurrection of believers is FIRST, and the resurrection of unbelievers is 1000 years later.

Something that needs to be resurrected was dead!

Whatever is alive doesn't need to be resurrected. It is what is DEAD that needs resurrecting. And that would be the body.

Souls don't need to be resurrected.

Tell you what: find a verse that says that God resurrects souls. Then I'll believe you.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
When the majority is WRONG, there is EVERY reason to resist. Obviously.

The majority is often wrong, but they aren’t about this particular parable.

Your opinion, again.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Yet again, reading the Bible through a Greek lens; assuming your English translation properly conveys the meaning of words.

Verse in question:
Revelation 20:10

10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where[a] the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Rev 20:10 AndG2532 theG3588 devilG1228 that deceivedG4105 themG846 was castG906 intoG1519 theG3588 lakeG3041 of fireG4442 andG2532 brimstone,G2303 whereG3699 theG3588 beastG2342 andG2532 theG3588 false prophetG5578 are, andG2532 shall be tormentedG928 dayG2250 andG2532 nightG3571 for ever and ever.G1519 G165 G165

How the bible uses the word aion doesn't mean a never ending amount of time; it means until the end of the age, but until you actually look at the 415 times that word is used and how it is used, you will continue to think it means "forever and ever", that is, an infinite amount of time.

Here is the FACT that you seem to want to ignore. Before the words "for ever and ever" we read "day and night". That is a specific time frame, from anyone's perspective.

When a specific time frame is included with "for ever and ever" it clearly does mean never ending. But you are free to your own opinion.

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

Here is the FACT that you seem to want to ignore. Before the words "for ever and ever" we read "day and night". That is a specific time frame, from anyone's perspective.

When a specific time frame is included with "for ever and ever" it clearly does mean never ending. But you are free to your own opinion.

You're right day and night is specific amount of time it is limited to 24 hours.

You can have day and night, for 1 week, 1 month, 1 year, 100 years, 1000 years, even a million years. But day and night doesn't = infinity.

aion aion (Greek) or olam olam (Hebrew) doesn't mean an infinite amount of time; it means until the end of the age which is a limited amount of time.

Which means they are going to be in "torment" day and night for a limited amount of time; day and night until the end of the age.

You're only helping my argument. Thank you.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You know what is great about living in modern times, we don't have to base our understanding of words on the thoughts of others. We can use bible programs to see how words are used, so that we have a proper understanding.

Ah, busted!! That is exactly what I do.

Please tell me when did Adam become a soul, was it before the breath of life entering him or after?

Gen 2:7 is clear enough. Read it.

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

Notice you used a different word than what you quoted. You asked about when Adam became a "soul" but the text says "became a living being". Don't you see the difference here?

What God breathed into Adam WAS a soul. The soul is the "inner man", which includes the consciousness, conscience, emotions, etc.

Gen 2:7 And the LORDH3068 GodH430 formedH3335 (H853) manH120 of the dustH6083 ofH4480 the ground,H127 and breathedH5301 into his nostrilsH639 the breathH5397 of life;H2416 and manH120 becameH1961 a livingH2416 soul.H5315

You don't have a soul, you are a soul.

Not exactly. Do you HAVE a body, or are you a body? See how silly that sounds.

God formed Adam's body from the dust and put into Adam his soul. And that results in a living being.

Humans are souls, animals are souls.

So you equate humans with animals then. Weird. But whatever. Animals have no conscience with which to make right/wrong decisions.

So your view is unbiblical. There is NO evidence in the Bible about animals having souls. God gave them instincts from which to function. Totally different from humans.

Without the breath of life you cease to exist.

Hm. Another weird statement. Do you know personally any one who has died? When they died, their "breath of life" left them. Did their body disappear? For that is what your statement implies.

Without blood running in your body, you cease to exist, this is defined in Genesis 1:20-2:19, 9:3-16.

See above.

The word is neh'-fesh (H5315) it is translated inconsistently in the KJV as: life, , kill, creature, thing, being, persons, soul, mind, lives, man, heart, one, dead, body, beast, themselves, they, breath.

Yep. Knew that long ago.

Animals are souls:
Gen 1:21
And God created great whales, and every living creature H5315 that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

Weird again. No mention of the soul. I think you don't know what a soul is. Esp since you think that at death the body disappears.

Gen 1:24
And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature H5315 after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

Gen 1:30
And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, H5315 I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

Gen 37:21

And Reuben heard it, and he delivered him out of their hands; and said, Let us not kill H5315 him.

There's about 757 times this is used in the bible. Have fun.

So what? You've proven nothing here.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You want a verse that demonstrates soul sleep? Sure.

Job 14:10-12

10 But man dies and [a]is laid away;
Indeed he breathes his last
And where is he?
11 As water disappears from the sea,
And a river becomes parched and dries up,
12 So man lies down and does not rise.
Till the heavens are no more,
They will not awake
Nor be roused from their sleep.

It's funny that even my Thomas Nelson NKJV since 1798 center column reference links Job 14:10-12 with Isaiah 51:6 and 65:17, 66:22; that is, they wouldnt be roused from their sleep until the heavens are no more (Second coming). I even colored them so you can see the connection.

Sorry to have to burst your bubble, but Job says nothing of soul sleep. You are just reading into the text your opinion.

v.12 speaks of the physical body lying down and not moving. If the blue words are literal, they are totally contradicted by the 3 verses that tell about the 2 resurrections; one of the saved and one of the unsaved.

In EVERY so-called "proof text" for so-called "soul sleep" is a reference to a dead body. Every case.

No need to address any more of your long post. You just fail to realize that "death" is a euphemism for physical death. It is the body that lies in the ground, as if sleeping. But it isn't sleeping. It is lifeless, dead.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Here is the FACT that you seem to want to ignore. Before the words "for ever and ever" we read "day and night". That is a specific time frame, from anyone's perspective.

When a specific time frame is included with "for ever and ever" it clearly does mean never ending. But you are free to your own opinion.

You're right day and night is specific amount of time it is limited to 24 hours.

You can have day and night, for 1 week, 1 month, 1 year, 100 years, 1000 years, even a million years. But day and night doesn't = infinity.

How many Greek scholar translators render it as "for ever and ever". The literal meaning is clear enough. If the Greek doesn't support that, why did so many Greek scholars use that phrase.

aion aion (Greek) or olam olam (Hebrew) doesn't mean an infinite amount of time; it means until the end of the age which is a limited amount of time.

I guess your argument is with Greek scholars.

Which means they are going to be in "torment" day and night for a limited amount of time; day and night until the end of the age.

Well, there's the rub for you. What occurs immediately AFTER the GWT judgment and casting all unbelievers into the LOF? The "eternal state". God replaces the present "heavens and earth" with a "new heaven and earth". And all believers will live with God on the new earth for eternity.

That is an "age", but one without end.

You're only helping my argument. Thank you.

HA! You might want to get that bullet hole in your foot looked at, or at least put a bandaid on it.

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

Sorry to have to burst your bubble, but Job says nothing of soul sleep. You are just reading into the text your opinion.

v.12 speaks of the physical body lying down and not moving. If the blue words are literal, they are totally contradicted by the 3 verses that tell about the 2 resurrections; one of the saved and one of the unsaved.

In EVERY so-called "proof text" for so-called "soul sleep" is a reference to a dead body. Every case.

No need to address any more of your long post. You just fail to realize that "death" is a euphemism for physical death. It is the body that lies in the ground, as if sleeping. But it isn't sleeping. It is lifeless, dead.

You mean these two resurrections?
First/second

Rev 20
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for [a]a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

1 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before [c]God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second [d]death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.


Progressive revelation right? Line upon line line upon line. Little here little there. Progressively adding prophesy on that which can before it?

You know once upon a time there were only 5 books, then more revelation was given that built on what came before it.
Revelations builds on top of everything that came before it (including Job).

Did Job know there was going to be two resurrections? Nope. Did any prior to the book of Revelation know there was going to be two resurrections, nope.

Closest thing we have would be Daniel, even he didn't know the two resurrections were going to separated by 1,000 years.

Daniel 12

12 “At that time Michael shall stand up,
The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people;
And there shall be a time of trouble,
Such as never was since there was a nation,
Even to that time.
And at that time your people shall be delivered,
Every one who is found written in the book.
2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting [a]contempt.

 

[posthuman]

Please explain to me why the Rich man had five brothers.

Luke 16:28
28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment

Please explain to me why Goliath had 4 brothers.

Then explain to me why actual historical events should be excluded from having spiritual meaning.

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

FreeGrace2 said:
Here is the FACT that you seem to want to ignore. Before the words "for ever and ever" we read "day and night". That is a specific time frame, from anyone's perspective.

When a specific time frame is included with "for ever and ever" it clearly does mean never ending. But you are free to your own opinion.

How many Greek scholar translators render it as "for ever and ever". The literal meaning is clear enough. If the Greek doesn't support that, why did so many Greek scholars use that phrase.


I guess your argument is with Greek scholars.


Well, there's the rub for you. What occurs immediately AFTER the GWT judgment and casting all unbelievers into the LOF? The "eternal state". God replaces the present "heavens and earth" with a "new heaven and earth". And all believers will live with God on the new earth for eternity.

That is an "age", but one without end.


HA! You might want to get that bullet hole in your foot looked at, or at least put a bandaid on it.

You're getting hung up on the word "New" to think that means fresh off the factory line; it means to restore.

Isaiah 51:3
καὶ σὲ νῦν παρακαλέσω Σιων καὶ παρεκάλεσα πάντα τὰ ἔρημα αὐτῆς καὶ θήσω τὰ ἔρημα αὐτῆς ὡς παράδεισον G3857 κυρίου εὐφροσύνην καὶ ἀγαλλίαμα εὑρήσουσιν ἐν αὐτῇ ἐξομολόγησιν καὶ φωνὴν αἰνέσεως

Isaiah 51:3, restoration of an already created earth:

3 For the Lord will comfort Zion (Jerusaelm),
He will comfort all her waste places;
He will make her wilderness like Eden,
And her desert (current state) like the garden (paradeisos) of the Lord;
Joy and gladness will be found in it,
Thanksgiving and the voice of melody.

Romans 8:20-23, this creation is waiting to be restored.
20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of [a]corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.

 

[Snacks]

Cannot honestly have a open and good discussion on the Bible without getting in depth, sorry if it's long, but it's kinda of necessary.

Let me give it one more shot:

If you are writing in English and you want to convey to the reader that the thief on the cross was going to be in Paradise on the very day Jesus made the promise, how would it be written?

1. "And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

If however you wanted to convey to the reader that the Jesus was promising to the thief on that day that in the future, at the coming of His Kingdom ("Remember me when You come to your Kingdom"), how would it be written?

2. "And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you today, you will be with Me in Paradise.”

In the first instance, Jesus is telling the thief he will be with him in Paradise on that day. In the second, Jesus is promising the thief on that day that the thief will be in Paradise, but it doesn't say when, other than it will be in the future.

In other words, Jesus who will Judge us all (not the Father, John 5:22-24) is judging the thief on that very day. Because if everyone remains dead and sleep until the resurrection, NO ONE has been judged yet.

This gets into a philosophical conundrum from those who believe that people are in heaven/hell right now. Because all judgement is done by the Son, and the Son judges no one until His second coming, so how can people be judged to go to heaven/hell at their death if the Son has not yet come?

Thank you for your insightful response. I am reminded of John 5.24 which refutes soul sleep.

“Most assuredly I say to you, he who hears my word and believes in Him who sent me has everlasting life and shall not come into judgment but has passed from death into life.”

To me this sounds like instantaneously being with God upon our last breath.

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

Please explain to me why Goliath had 4 brothers.

Then explain to me why actual historical events should be excluded from having spiritual meaning.

Who is Jesus, a Jew.
Who is Jesus audience, Jews.
Who is Jesus specially addressing in the parable, the Levitical priesthood (Pharisees).
What scriptures did all Jews have during Jesus's day, the OT.

14 Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, also heard all these things, and they [f]derided Him. 15 And He said to them, “You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God.

16 “The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it. 17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one [g]tittle of the law to fail.

18 “Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced from her husband commits adultery.

What does verse 18 have anything to do with the argumentation prior to the parable UNLESS the things in which Jesus is speaking of are the things the Pharisees (who He is addressing) were doing.

For goodness sake go read Malachi; heck the verses are right there for you to see the connection to what Jesus is talking about. The entire book of Malachi is ripping into the Levites for the crap they were doing.

B. The Rich Man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31)
1. A allegory/parable, not literal history. One of the earliest manuscripts, Codex Bezae (5th century, Italy),
begins vs. 19 as follows: Ειπεν δέ και ετεραν παραβολην – "But He spoke also another parable, ..."
a. The last in a series of parables spoken to the Jewish leadership. (compare Lk. 16:1)
2. The “Rich Man” – the apostate Jewish Priesthood – Levites
a. Justified themselves (Luke 16:15 / Mal. 1:6; 2:14,17; 3:8,13)
b. Improperly divorced wives and remarried (Luke 16:18 / Mal. 2:13-16)
c. “Lovers of money” (Luke 16:14) who had “robbed God” (Mal. 3:8-10).
d. Dressed in purple and fine linen
1. “Purple” was the clothing of kings (Mark 15:17).
2. “Fine linen” was the clothing of priests (Ex. 39:27-29).
3. The Hasmonean Dynasty (from the Maccabees) were “priest-kings,” and continued to
rule under Herod the Great.

Perhaps maybe the Jewish audience Jesus is speaking to, specially addressing the Levitical priesthood (Luke 16:14), would understand the clues to everything Jesus describes in the parable, including the fact that Levite had 5 brothers from Leah..... and Jesus is speaking to Levites..

 

[FreeGrace2]

You mean these two resurrections?

Don't you read my posts? I have you the verses that describe a resurrection of the saved and of the unsaved.

Daniel 12

12 “At that time Michael shall stand up,
The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people;
And there shall be a time of trouble,
Such as never was since there was a nation,
Even to that time.
And at that time your people shall be delivered,
Every one who is found written in the book.
2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting [a]contempt.[/QUOTE]
This is the first verse of 3 passages.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You're getting hung up on the word "New" to think that means fresh off the factory line; it means to restore.

Isaiah 51:3
καὶ σὲ νῦν παρακαλέσω Σιων καὶ παρεκάλεσα πάντα τὰ ἔρημα αὐτῆς καὶ θήσω τὰ ἔρημα αὐτῆς ὡς παράδεισον G3857 κυρίου εὐφροσύνην καὶ ἀγαλλίαμα εὑρήσουσιν ἐν αὐτῇ ἐξομολόγησιν καὶ φωνὴν αἰνέσεως

Isaiah 51:3, restoration of an already created earth:

Right. That would be Genesis 1. v.1 was original creation. From v.2 to the end was the restoration.

Romans 8:20-23, this creation is waiting to be restored.

That will be Rev 21:1.

 

[FreeGrace2]

PeacefulWarrior said:
Cannot honestly have a open and good discussion on the Bible without getting in depth, sorry if it's long, but it's kinda of necessary.

Let me give it one more shot:

Thank you for your insightful response. I am reminded of John 5.24 which refutes soul sleep.

“Most assuredly I say to you, he who hears my word and believes in Him who sent me has everlasting life and shall not come into judgment but has passed from death into life.”

To me this sounds like instantaneously being with God upon our last breath.

Exactly!! This is what Paul said about physical death:

2 Cor 5:6-8
So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. For we walk by faith, not by sight. We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

Paul contrasts being alive in the body and away from the Lord, or being absent from the body (dead) AND to be present with th Lord.

Real clear. Shoots down the idea of "soul sleep" immediately.