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The Role of the Woman
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TwilightSparkle
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ember
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That is not so and a very dangerous way to believe.
The NT is explicit that we are to be changed into the image of Christ...He is our example...we have a very direct map to follow....the Christian life is not some ever changing and uncertain course with each person believing what and how they want.
Cop out. You do not really want to have a conversation about this which is why you pull out the old red herring someone is judging you.
I am sorry...but you do not understand submission as the Bible delineates it. Submission to everyone indicates passivity which means you are open for deception.
There is no defense of this op or of submission to everyone as you have indicated
IMO, you simply do not understand and I will leave it at that but I do hope and pray you get some clarification because a marriage where the women has no input and just obeys, is no marriage at all and will engender resentment and hostility and the sad thing is, you may very well draw the very man who will treat you that way.
Ok cool
Ok I see your point here's my question to you: how and when should you point out my pride? Because I'm talking about over-analyzing a person and measuring them up against scripture and then lording it over them when they fall short.
Or in the woman's case seeing a woman not as a woman but as someone who is meant to submit to her husband, do the chores around the house, ect. as opposed to an equal heir in Christ. See my point?
Ok 1) you're being a little harsh. I can understand you saying this to someone with thicker skin but from what I have seen she's not that great with words and she seems a little sensitive (that was just the impression I got) so consider your audience. You can say the same thing in a completely different way.
2) I see what you are saying about submission and I agree with you but like I said, consider your audience. You will be much more effective if you do.
Cmariah,
Submission does not mean you don't get a voice. I think it's admirable that you submit yourself to everyone but don't hurt yourself or think badly of yourself in the process. If you feel called to submit to everyone go for it but please do so in a healthy manner.
Also don't let your future spouse make ALL the decisions by himself. Not only is that not fair to you but that puts a MASSIVE burden on him. If he decides not to take it seriously you could be in real trouble. If he does take it seriously he could easily get worn out from the constant pressure and anxiety. Yes, men have feelings too. They also get anxious. You have a brain so use it. I would suggest reading the book of Esther. She used her brain and was very blessed for it. You can use yours too. Now don't be like "my way or the highway" but you can be like "I'm sorry I don't agree with you. let's work to come to a decision we BOTH agree on." There's a thread in the family forum called "listening time" that I think would do you good.
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cmarieh
Guest
Ok 1) you're being a little harsh. I can understand you saying this to someone with thicker skin but from what I have seen she's not that great with words and she seems a little sensitive (that was just the impression I got) so consider your audience. You can say the same thing in a completely different way.
2) I see what you are saying about submission and I agree with you but like I said, consider your audience. You will be much more effective if you do.
Cmariah,
Submission does not mean you don't get a voice. I think it's admirable that you submit yourself to everyone but don't hurt yourself or think badly of yourself in the process. If you feel called to submit to everyone go for it but please do so in a healthy manner.
Also don't let your future spouse make ALL the decisions by himself. Not only is that not fair to you but that puts a MASSIVE burden on him. If he decides not to take it seriously you could be in real trouble. If he does take it seriously he could easily get worn out from the constant pressure and anxiety. Yes, men have feelings too. They also get anxious. You have a brain so use it. I would suggest reading the book of Esther. She used her brain and was very blessed for it. You can use yours too. Now don't be like "my way or the highway" but you can be like "I'm sorry I don't agree with you. let's work to come to a decision we BOTH agree on." There's a thread in the family forum called "listening time" that I think would do you good.
Thank you for standing up for me here. However, I am not saying I submit to everyone. I submit myself only to God and do as he instructs me to until I am married. I do stand up for myself all the time and I do have a backbone. You all seem to think I can't have a voice in a relationship and I believe I can speak my opinion. I am not saying that my husband will make all the decisions in the home as we make them together, but will make final decisions and will support him in those decisions.
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sassylady
Guest
What was so hard for me is a wife's role when the husband/father is abusive. It's clear what to do if he is not saved, but if he has been saved and being abusive, I have often wondered where you draw the line to being submissive and taking the side of the children, etc. I wouldn't wish such a situation on any Christian wife.
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CeileDe
Guest
I don't believe I took them out of context. I guess you are the only one with full understanding? Lol
Yes because while you sit around and try to blame men in MY age group not being married on feminism. I can tell you thats actually not the case. We graduate high school, go to college, graduate college, and then after 16-18 years in school not even counting higher education like masters or doctorates, the last thing on our mind is immediately jumping into a marriage which is a lifelong commitment.
Maybe we want to get stable in our careers, clear up college debt, travel, but certainly not get married immediately. Sorry your head is clearly stuck in some 1950's mindset were everyone got married asap. We have girlfriends, they aren't exactly jumping on the baby train either and have the same desires of careers and being debt free and actually enjoying life for a while before settling down.
And on your whole feminist nonsense. I know two women who would actively say they are feminist and they're both lesbians. So for some reason i Don't think these man-hating feminists are a big of an issue as you like to pretend.
Sorry our life choices dont mirror your opinion of what they should be. Perhaps you would be happier lving around people like the duggars.
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CeileDe
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You know we can all disagree on this subject but doesn't change what is important and that is salvation.
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TwilightSparkle
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AgeofKnowledge
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Because you're so interested in my personal life (only in a bad way for the purpose of ad hominem) Nautilus, I'll give you another tidbit.
Recently, this year, I had to again change churches (from one typical evangelical assembly to another typical evangelical assembly). The reason for this is because yet another woman in her thirties that was one of my plutonic female friends "fell in love" with me.
I explained to her that there was no future for us as a married couple because if I marry her I'll lose the legal power I presently enjoy as a non-married individual and enter into a state in which men have lost virtually all of their legal protections and liable for outright exploitation (even with a prenup in this state).
I explained the nightmare stories of men going to prison after becoming sick and losing their job and the madness and severe persecution that I'd seen friends of mine who were male have to endure for decades after a divorce... how there's no time period or amount of distance, legal contract or legal status, that can truly be said to protect a man after a divorce and that you have literally no angle of protection or legal status to escape it. You can (and many do) lose everything including your children.
I told her I'd die before I'd sign an ungodly legal contract that reduced me to THAT.
She said, "but I LOVE you." I said, love someone else because I'll never marry under the present feminist gulag system. I distanced myself from her immediately but she wouldn't stop. Apparently, she was in love with me. So then people started approaching me about it. I told them look I have a lot of friends. Many of them are women. I am a genuine Christian and these relationships are plutonic. They are NOT sinful. They said she had told them that and they understood that.
I told them if the laws were different, I'd already be married. But the laws are NOT different and I'm not going to violate my liberty and integrity to legally contract myself to a state of powerless human slavery where I can be legally raped by the government forever after she divorces me.
But, I could see it wasn't going to stop, so I left. Now I'm making new friends. Many of them are female. Wash, rinse, repeat. Fortunately there are a lot of churches where I live. A lot of them. So, it's going to be OK.
Recently, this year, I had to again change churches (from one typical evangelical assembly to another typical evangelical assembly). The reason for this is because yet another woman in her thirties that was one of my plutonic female friends "fell in love" with me.
I explained to her that there was no future for us as a married couple because if I marry her I'll lose the legal power I presently enjoy as a non-married individual and enter into a state in which men have lost virtually all of their legal protections and liable for outright exploitation (even with a prenup in this state).
I explained the nightmare stories of men going to prison after becoming sick and losing their job and the madness and severe persecution that I'd seen friends of mine who were male have to endure for decades after a divorce... how there's no time period or amount of distance, legal contract or legal status, that can truly be said to protect a man after a divorce and that you have literally no angle of protection or legal status to escape it. You can (and many do) lose everything including your children.
I told her I'd die before I'd sign an ungodly legal contract that reduced me to THAT.
She said, "but I LOVE you." I said, love someone else because I'll never marry under the present feminist gulag system. I distanced myself from her immediately but she wouldn't stop. Apparently, she was in love with me. So then people started approaching me about it. I told them look I have a lot of friends. Many of them are women. I am a genuine Christian and these relationships are plutonic. They are NOT sinful. They said she had told them that and they understood that.
I told them if the laws were different, I'd already be married. But the laws are NOT different and I'm not going to violate my liberty and integrity to legally contract myself to a state of powerless human slavery where I can be legally raped by the government forever after she divorces me.
But, I could see it wasn't going to stop, so I left. Now I'm making new friends. Many of them are female. Wash, rinse, repeat. Fortunately there are a lot of churches where I live. A lot of them. So, it's going to be OK.
I agree.
And this is probably off-topic, but the effect of men waiting so long to want to get married means that they are finally ready to make babies at the time that women's fertility is on the decline. Women of that age who definitely want biological kids have already had to make that commitment, possibly by marrying someone much older. Then we are faced with the probability of having a spouse whose health is declining while we are still raising kids and then either being widowed early or spending our last "good" years taking care of a geriatric spouse. You don't have to have ALL of your act together before you get married; there's a lot to be said for growing up with someone before you grow old. (I recognize that there are positives and negatives on both sides of this.)
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AgeofKnowledge
Guest
Your name calling and ad hominem are always unwanted and unwarranted. Obviously, I'm happy living around genuine Christians as that's what I am and who I spend my time with. That doesn't equate to me wanting to assume a ridiculous amount of legal liability that carries the threat of incarceration.
You can't fathom this; however, because your elevator doesn't go that high. In your ignorance, a person must be unhappy being around anyone but "duggers" (whatever that is as I've never even heard of them) if they aren't stupid enough to assume an amount of legal liability that carries the threat of incarceration.
Tell it to your peers Nautilus as the number of male millennials who are now stating they will never marry in their lifetimes has more than quadrupled from what it was just a few decades ago and continues to rapidly rise.
As usual, you didn't read the research studies but if you had you'd see they've already refuted your entire post: What the Pew Research Study really said was that 70% of men aged 20-34 are not married, and about 50% never will and both percentages are rising.
And the way you frame things is fallacious. I don't blame the men in your age group, I congratulate them on being wise. How is pointing out that they're making smart choices for their lives by not entangling themselves with serious life-long and potentially devastating legal liabilities that put them in a group with the highest risk for suicide on the planet "blaming them."
Sometimes Nautilus, talking with you is like talking to a developmentally disabled person.
But the issue is serious (even though you assert the opposite) and it's getting rapidly worse over time (a fact that you can't stop with name calling and making false assertions). A monumental societal shift is occurring in Western Society because men are withdrawing from courtship and marriage due to the punishing radical feminist legal environment and culture that now dominates Western Civilization.
You're a knave to attempt to slough it off as everyone's simply waiting to get married and calling everyone a "dugger" that correctly points out that you're wrong.
You can't fathom this; however, because your elevator doesn't go that high. In your ignorance, a person must be unhappy being around anyone but "duggers" (whatever that is as I've never even heard of them) if they aren't stupid enough to assume an amount of legal liability that carries the threat of incarceration.
Tell it to your peers Nautilus as the number of male millennials who are now stating they will never marry in their lifetimes has more than quadrupled from what it was just a few decades ago and continues to rapidly rise.
As usual, you didn't read the research studies but if you had you'd see they've already refuted your entire post: What the Pew Research Study really said was that 70% of men aged 20-34 are not married, and about 50% never will and both percentages are rising.
And the way you frame things is fallacious. I don't blame the men in your age group, I congratulate them on being wise. How is pointing out that they're making smart choices for their lives by not entangling themselves with serious life-long and potentially devastating legal liabilities that put them in a group with the highest risk for suicide on the planet "blaming them."
Sometimes Nautilus, talking with you is like talking to a developmentally disabled person.
But the issue is serious (even though you assert the opposite) and it's getting rapidly worse over time (a fact that you can't stop with name calling and making false assertions). A monumental societal shift is occurring in Western Society because men are withdrawing from courtship and marriage due to the punishing radical feminist legal environment and culture that now dominates Western Civilization.
You're a knave to attempt to slough it off as everyone's simply waiting to get married and calling everyone a "dugger" that correctly points out that you're wrong.
Because you're so interested in my personal life (only in a bad way for the purpose of ad hominem) Nautilus, I'll give you another tidbit.
Recently, this year, I had to again change churches (from one typical evangelical assembly to another typical evangelical assembly). The reason for this is because yet another woman in her thirties that was one of my plutonic female friends "fell in love" with me.
I explained to her that there was no future for us as a married couple because if I marry her I'll lose the legal power I presently enjoy as a non-married individual and enter into a state in which men have lost virtually all of their legal protections and liable for outright exploitation (even with a prenup in this state).
I explained the nightmare stories of men going to prison after becoming sick and losing their job and the madness and severe persecution that I'd seen friends of mine who were male have to endure for decades after a divorce... how there's no time period or amount of distance, legal contract or legal status, that can truly be said to protect a man after a divorce and that you have literally no angle of protection or legal status to escape it. You can (and many do) lose everything including your children.
I told her I'd die before I'd sign an ungodly legal contract that reduced me to THAT.
She said, "but I LOVE you." I said, love someone else because I'll never marry under the present feminist gulag system. I distanced myself from her immediately but she wouldn't stop. Apparently, she was in love with me. So then people started approaching me about it. I told them look I have a lot of friends. Many of them are women. I am a genuine Christian and these relationships are plutonic. They are NOT sinful. They said she had told them that and they understood that.
I told them if the laws were different, I'd already be married. But the laws are NOT different and I'm not going to violate my liberty and integrity to legally contract myself to a state of powerless human slavery where I can be legally raped by the government forever after she divorces me.
But, I could see it wasn't going to stop, so I left. Now I'm making new friends. Many of them are female. Wash, rinse, repeat. Fortunately there are a lot of churches where I live. A lot of them. So, it's going to be OK.
Its a damn shame that somewhere there is a woman missing out on a great, Christian man, in you. But this is the consequences of a tyrannical government where all people are equal, but some more equal than others. I know exactly where you're coming from, Brother, and sadly, you make very valid points.
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AgeofKnowledge
Guest
What's actually happening, in reality, Misty is that older women, who waited for all the reasons you listed, are increasingly going at motherhood alone because men increasingly are choosing not to marry them.
"The birth rate among older, single moms has reached a record high — even as the overall births for unmarried women in the United States has declined.
Researchers noted that the overall birth rate among single moms in the country is gradually declining after peaking in the last 2000s.
At the same time, there has been a sharp 48 percent increase over the past decade in the birth rate for unwed women between the ages of 35 to 39: For every 1,000 single women aged 35 to 39, there were 31 births in 2012 compared to 21 births in 2002. Among moms ages 40 to 44, the rate increased 29 percent over the past five years, to 7 per 1,000 births in 2012."
CDC Brief: Products - Data Briefs - Number 152 - May 2014
Men are not attracted to entering into a legal contract that renders them powerless and carries potentially devastating consequences up to and including incarceration in the nation's penal system so they can live with a feminist who's already been with scores of men and now is ready to "settle down."
So, these older women are going out and deliberately getting pregnant to have a child outside of marriage before their fertility clock stops.
"The birth rate among older, single moms has reached a record high — even as the overall births for unmarried women in the United States has declined.
Researchers noted that the overall birth rate among single moms in the country is gradually declining after peaking in the last 2000s.
At the same time, there has been a sharp 48 percent increase over the past decade in the birth rate for unwed women between the ages of 35 to 39: For every 1,000 single women aged 35 to 39, there were 31 births in 2012 compared to 21 births in 2002. Among moms ages 40 to 44, the rate increased 29 percent over the past five years, to 7 per 1,000 births in 2012."
CDC Brief: Products - Data Briefs - Number 152 - May 2014
Men are not attracted to entering into a legal contract that renders them powerless and carries potentially devastating consequences up to and including incarceration in the nation's penal system so they can live with a feminist who's already been with scores of men and now is ready to "settle down."
So, these older women are going out and deliberately getting pregnant to have a child outside of marriage before their fertility clock stops.
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TwilightSparkle
Guest
I'd agree and say that women should be looked at through the eyes of God. I also would argue that women are EQUAL to men. God doesn't value one over the other. Where both made in his image and with love.
Because you're so interested in my personal life (only in a bad way for the purpose of ad hominem) Nautilus, I'll give you another tidbit.
Recently, this year, I had to again change churches (from one typical evangelical assembly to another typical evangelical assembly). The reason for this is because yet another woman in her thirties that was one of my plutonic female friends "fell in love" with me.
I explained to her that there was no future for us as a married couple because if I marry her I'll lose the legal power I presently enjoy as a non-married individual and enter into a state in which men have lost virtually all of their legal protections and liable for outright exploitation (even with a prenup in this state).
I explained the nightmare stories of men going to prison after becoming sick and losing their job and the madness and severe persecution that I'd seen friends of mine who were male have to endure for decades after a divorce... how there's no time period or amount of distance, legal contract or legal status, that can truly be said to protect a man after a divorce and that you have literally no angle of protection or legal status to escape it. You can (and many do) lose everything including your children.
I told her I'd die before I'd sign an ungodly legal contract that reduced me to THAT.
She said, "but I LOVE you." I said, love someone else because I'll never marry under the present feminist gulag system. I distanced myself from her immediately but she wouldn't stop. Apparently, she was in love with me. So then people started approaching me about it. I told them look I have a lot of friends. Many of them are women. I am a genuine Christian and these relationships are plutonic. They are NOT sinful. They said she had told them that and they understood that.
I told them if the laws were different, I'd already be married. But the laws are NOT different and I'm not going to violate my liberty and integrity to legally contract myself to a state of powerless human slavery where I can be legally raped by the government forever after she divorces me.
But, I could see it wasn't going to stop, so I left. Now I'm making new friends. Many of them are female. Wash, rinse, repeat. Fortunately there are a lot of churches where I live. A lot of them. So, it's going to be OK.
It takes two to tango. What did you to make her fall in love with you? That was kinda harsh...
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