The Sabbath.

[KohenMatt]

the rule is to use the clear passages of scripture to interpret the unclear passages...

jesus very often was deliberately unclear...he himself said that his teaching style was designed to conceal its true meaning from those who were not called...and that confusion was especially evident among the jewish minded listeners...

paul on the other hand was usually very direct...

so when paul makes a direct statement...the meaning should be obvious...and anyone interpreting the words of jesus to mean anything contradictory to paul's direct statements is just misunderstanding what jesus had said in his often obscure teaching style...

I suppose our views of which passage is more clear than the other differs a bit.

I choose to go with the same theme and message spoken of by God, Moses, the prophets, and Jesus. And then fit Paul's words into that.

But that's OK Rachel. I know where your heart is, and I know where your faith is. And truth be told, we're on the exact sae page as each other on that.

Peace,
Matt

 

[p_rehbein]

I can't find this anywhere in the New Testament so can you help me out?

neither in the New or the First I suspect, but I do like the thought..........

have gone into this in great detail on other threads with the same subject.......no need to continue to rehash the same thing.......well, not in my opinion........

 

[mustaphadrink]

........ok, but............

2nd Peter 3:8) But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. Given this do we ONLY KEEP THE SABBATH EVERY 7,000 years or so?

I looked up this verse on my computer bible and sat and looked at it on the screen and as I did I asked the Lord to give me a revelation about it.

What came to me is that Peter was saying that God is not in time and not governed by time. To him a day might as well be a thousand years and a thousand years might as well be a day because neither are relevant when you are not in time as God isn't.

So God doesn't say I will do this in a thousand years or I wil do this in a day. He says I will do this and whether it is a day or a thousand years it is all the same to God because he doesn't measure things in time because he is in eternity.

 

[p_rehbein]

I looked up this verse on my computer bible and sat and looked at it on the screen and as I did I asked the Lord to give me a revelation about it.

What came to me is that Peter was saying that God is not in time and not governed by time. To him a day might as well be a thousand years and a thousand years might as well be a day because neither are relevant when you are not in time as God isn't.

So God doesn't say I will do this in a thousand years or I wil do this in a day. He says I will do this and whether it is a day or a thousand years it is all the same to God because he doesn't measure things in time because he is in eternity.

yes, I have believed such for many years..............but.........

 

[RedTent]

it says God rested on the first sabbath...there is nothing that says adam and eve or anyone else rested...

it says God blessed the sabbath and made it holy...there is nothing that says he gave a command to adam and eve pertaining to its holiness...

to assume that God ordained sabbath keeping for all humanity on the seventh day of creation week is to add to scripture...

If this is the way the world was created, I think it is adding to scripture to say that it wasn't created that way. He created us and we are still on the earth, so is the seventh day.

 

[Apostol2013]

GOD simply blessed that day over all the rest of the days is not that sufficient out of all the worship days this day should be the one to be worshiped not Sunday but let Rome have authority over you as for me no ! no to Rome . Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
Rev 18:5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
Rev 18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.
Rev 18:7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.
Rev 18:8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.

 

[Apostol2013]

Jer 51:45 My people, go ye out of the midst of her, and deliver ye every man his soul from the fierce anger of the LORD.
Jer 51:46 And lest your heart faint, and ye fear for the rumour that shall be heard in the land; a rumour shall both come one year, and after that in another year shall come a rumour, and violence in the land, ruler against ruler.
Jer 51:47 Therefore, behold, the days come, that I will do judgment upon the graven images of Babylon: and her whole land shall be confounded, and all her slain shall fall in the midst of her.
Jer 51:48 Then the heaven and the earth, and all that is therein, shall sing for Babylon: for the spoilers shall come unto her from the north, saith the LORD.
Jer 51:49 As Babylon hath caused the slain of Israel to fall, so at Babylon shall fall the slain of all the earth.

 

[Apostol2013]

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

 

[p_rehbein]

Why do we worship on Sunday instead of Saturday?
by Matt Slick
In the Old Testament, God stated, "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you," (Exodus 20:8-10, NASB). It was the custom of the Jews to come together on the Sabbath, which is Saturday, cease work, and worship God. Jesus went to the synagogue on Saturday to teach (Matt. 12:9, John 18:20) as did the apostle Paul (Acts 17:2; 18:4; ). So, if in the Old Testament we are commanded to keep the Sabbath and in the New Testament we see Jews, Jesus, and the apostles doing the same thing, then why do we worship on Sunday?
First of all, of the 10 commandments listed in Exodus 20:1-17, only 9 of them were reinstituted in the New Testament: (six in Matt. 19:18, murder, adultery, stealing, false witness, honor parents, and worshiping God; Rom. 13:9, coveting. Worshiping God properly covers the first three commandments) The one that was not reaffirmed was the one about the Sabbath. Instead, Jesus said that He is the Lord of the Sabbath (Matt. 12:8).
Upon the completion of Creation God rested... on the seventh day. But, since God is all powerful, He doesn’t get tired. He doesn’t need to take a break and rest. So, why did does it say that He rested? The reason is simple: Mark 2:27 says, "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." In other words, God established the Sabbath as a rest for His people, not because He needed a break, but because we are mortal and need a time of rest, a time to focus on God. In this, our spirits and bodies are both renewed.
The Old Testament system of Law required keeping the Sabbath as part of the overall moral, legal, and sacrificial system by which the Jewish people satisfied God’s requirements for behavior, government, and forgiveness of sins. The Sabbath was part of the Law in that sense. In order to "remain" in favor with God, you had to also keep the Sabbath. If it was not kept, then the person was in sin and would often be punished (Ezekiel 18:4; Rom. 6:23; Deut. 13:1-9; Num. 35:31; Lev. 20:2, etc.).
But with Jesus’ atonement, we are no longer required to keep the Law. We are not under Law, but grace (Rom. 6:14-15). The Sabbath is fulfilled in Jesus. He is our rest. We are not under obligation, by Law, to keep it and this goes for the Sabbath as well. It is not a requirement that we keep the Sabbath. If it were, then we would still be under the Law. But, we are not.
Evidence of the Change of Days can be Seen in the NT
The New Testament has ample evidence that the seventh day Sabbath is no longer a requirement.

• Rom. 14:5-6, "One man regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Let each man be fully convinced in his own mind. [SUP]6[/SUP] He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God."

The entire section of Rom. 14:1-12 is worth careful study. Nevertheless, the instructions here are that individuals must be convinced in their own minds about which day they observe for the Lord. If the seventh day Sabbath were a requirement, then the choice would not be man's, but God’s.

• Col. 2:16-17, "Therefore let no one act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day— [SUP]17[/SUP] things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ."

Notice here that time sequence mentioned. A festival is yearly. A new moon is monthly. A Sabbath is weekly. No one is to judge in regard to this. The Sabbath is defined as a shadow, the reality is Jesus. Jesus is our Sabbath.

• Acts 20:7, "And on the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul began talking to them, intending to depart the next day, and he prolonged his message until midnight."

The first day of the week is Sunday and this is the day the people gathered. This passage can easily be seen as the church meeting on Sunday. It has two important church functions within it: breaking bread (communion) and a message (preaching). Additionally, Luke did not use the Jewish system of counting days: sundown to sundown. He used the Roman system: midnight to midnight. This is a subtle point that shows the Jewish Sabbath system was not the one utilized by Luke.

• 1 Cor. 16:1-2, "Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I directed the churches of Galatia, so do you also.[SUP] 2[/SUP] On the first day of every week let each one of you put aside and save, as he may prosper, that no collections be made when I come."

Notice here that Paul is directing the churches to meet on the first day of each week and put money aside. It would seem that this is tithing. So, the instructed time for the church to meet is Sunday. Is this an official worship day set up by the church? You decide.

• Rev. 1:10-11, "I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like the sound of a trumpet,[SUP] 11[/SUP]saying, "Write in a book what you see, and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea."

The New Bible Dictionary says regarding the term, ‘The Lord’s Day’ in Revelation 1:10: "This is the first extant occurrence in Christian literature of heµ kyriakeµ heµmera. The adjectival construction suggests that it was a formal designation of the church’s worship day. As such it certainly appears early in the 2nd century (Ignatius, Epistle to the Magnesians, 1. 67).
In many churches today, the term "The Lord’s Day" is used to designate Sunday, the same as it was in the second century.

I hope this is evidence enough to show you that the Bible does not require that we worship on Saturday. If anything, we have the freedom (Rom. 14:1-12) to worship on the day that we believe we should. And, no one should judge us in regard to the day we keep. We are free in Christ, not under law (Rom. 6:14).

 

[Grandpa]

One could search the word yoke in the scripture to see what the Christ is referring to in Matthew 11:28..

Or you could just read Matthew 5 and know what the Lord Jesus Christ is talking about.

If this verse is about the Sabbath, which according to some who oppose the observing of such is not, why one does not obey by laying down His burden and rest on the Sabbath rather than using it as an excuse not to is intriguing.

There's no if. Matthew 11:28 is what the workers of the law were looking forward to.

There is no reason to only rest from our works on saturdays. Unless you are working at the law.

That's the whole reason Christians are able to say that we are under grace and not under law. Because the Lord Jesus has given us rest from our works.

Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

You get one or the other. Grace or Law. You decide. And it looks like you already have... Obviously you know I think you are making the wrong choice.

Romans 3:19-20
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

 

[Grandpa]

He is stuck in a place where any time keeping the commandments is mentioned especially the sabbath he says the same answer all the time. Even though people tell him that we keep the law through Christ and out of love. People have to continue to feed him milk.

The sabbath is really the only one you focus on.

I just show Christians who may be confused that we aren't under the law. We are under Grace. We rely on Christ, not our works.

You attempt to put saved Christians back under the yoke of the Law. I guess I need to give people a different point of view. One that makes more sense if you read the New Testament and have been saved.

 

[Grandpa]

Grandpa you're misrepresenting my statement a bit when you say "my work at the law" even though I said it's "Christ's work at the law in me". So maybe I should try this angle to see where our signals are getting crossed...

1. Can you define for me what God means to "love God with one's whole heart, soul, mind and strength"? Anyone can say they love God (in their own way), but how does God himself define love for him?


2. Can you define for me what God means to "love your neighbor as yourself"? Anyone can say they love their neighbor (in their own way), but how does God himself define love for a neighbor?


3. True Galatians 5:17-18 says the flesh lusts against the spirit, and the spirit against the flesh. And Romans 8:7 also says "The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so.", which is also the point your making with Galatians.

But doesn't Romans 8:7 also mean the opposite is true; that a mind governed by the spirit is friendly to God; and that it does submit to God's Law, and it can do so?


4. Now, I completely agree with you when you say...



So my last question is this: So spirit people are able to keep the commandments, right?

4A. Is the believer who is "born again" still of the flesh or are they of the spirit?

You're doing what everyone else does who wants to work at the law and call it Christianity. You're trying to frame everything in such a way to show how our works are what is required to fulfill the law.

That's not the case.

We don't fulfill the law. The Lord Jesus fulfills the law. And He Perfects us.

What He doesn't do is give us the Holy Spirit so that we can boast of how well we keep His Law. All we can boast of is His Power and Mercy and Grace.

A mind governed by the Spirit is keeping the law, but not out of will or strength, just by the influence and characteristics of the Spirit itself.

Its like Peter when he was walking on the water. If you're in the Spirit you're just doing it. If you start thinking about your performance and whether you are keeping commandments and how righteous you are, you have just taken your eyes off the Lord Jesus Christ and you are beginning to sink. Because the Law points out sin, even the smallest one. Once you focus on sin it gets bigger and bigger. Its better to keep your focus on Christ and rely on Him to make you Righteous and keep you on the Path to Him and His Kingdom. And not look back at the law and your own strength.

 

[Timeline]

........ok, but............

2nd Peter 3:8) But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Given this do we ONLY KEEP THE SABBATH EVERY 7,000 years or so?

Its the Seven Thousandth year somewhere

No meaning, just what I thought of when I read post 178 and 179 and then thought of a song by Alan Jackson (not that I listen to instrumental music and country no less.)

 

[john832]

Matthew 22:34-28
[SUP]34 [/SUP]But when the Pharisees heard that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered themselves together. [SUP]35 [/SUP]One of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, [SUP]36 [/SUP]“Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” [SUP]37 [/SUP]And He said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ [SUP]38 [/SUP]This is the great and foremost commandment. [SUP]39 [/SUP]The second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ [SUP]40 [/SUP]On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”

Romans 13:8-10
Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. [SUP]9 [/SUP]For this, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” [SUP]10 [/SUP]Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Galatians 5:13-15
[SUP]13 [/SUP]For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. [SUP]14 [/SUP]For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” [SUP]15 [/SUP]But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another.

1 John 4:15-21
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. [SUP]16 [/SUP]We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. [SUP]17 [/SUP]By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world. [SUP]18 [/SUP]There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.[SUP]19 [/SUP]We love, because He first loved us. [SUP]20 [/SUP]If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen.[SUP]21 [/SUP]And this commandment we have from Him, that the one who loves God should love his brother also.

1 Corinthians 8:5-6
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, [SUP]6 [/SUP]yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

Hebrews 8:13
When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

It's all covered in the new.

Seems it is all covered except that pesky fourth one. Very few seem to want to accept it.

 

[john832]

........ok, but............

2nd Peter 3:8) But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Given this do we ONLY KEEP THE SABBATH EVERY 7,000 years or so?

Given this...

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

The Sabbath is the shadow of the coming Millenium.

 

[john832]

The sabbath is really the only one you focus on.

I just show Christians who may be confused that we aren't under the law. We are under Grace. We rely on Christ, not our works.

You attempt to put saved Christians back under the yoke of the Law. I guess I need to give people a different point of view. One that makes more sense if you read the New Testament and have been saved.

Hmmm, would you apply the same regimen to the seventh Commandment? We are not under Law but grace, so if you commit adultery it is no different that working on the seventh day right?

Committing murder is no different than working on the seventh day, right?

 

[john832]

Come to think of it, I don't believe I have ever seen a thread in which the sixth Commandment or the seventh Commandment was contested. It is only the fourth Commandment that is a problem to people.

 

[Timeline]

Seems it is all covered except that pesky fourth one. Very few seem to want to accept it.

Well actually the Sabbath is covered in the NT. (Please finish reading before you start writing your next post)

Hebrews 8:1-13
Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, [SUP]2 [/SUP]a minister in the sanctuary and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man. [SUP]3 [/SUP]For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices; so it is necessary that this high priest also have something to offer. [SUP]4 [/SUP]Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest at all, since there are those who offer the gifts according to the Law; [SUP]5 [/SUP]who serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things, just as Moses was warned by God when he was about to erect the tabernacle; for, “See,” He says, “that you make all things according to the pattern which was shown you on the mountain.” [SUP]6 [/SUP]But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second. [SUP]8 [/SUP]For finding fault with them, He says,
“Behold, days are coming, says the Lord,
When I will effect a new covenant
With the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Not like the covenant which I made with their fathers
On the day when I took them by the hand
To lead them out of the land of Egypt;
For they did not continue in My covenant,
And I did not care for them, says the Lord.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]“For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
After those days, says the Lord:
I will put My laws into their minds,
And I will write them on their hearts.
And I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]“And they shall not teach everyone his fellow citizen,
And everyone his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’
For all will know Me,
From the least to the greatest of them.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]“For I will be merciful to their iniquities,
And I will remember their sins no more.”


[SUP]13 [/SUP]When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.


Exodus 31:12-14
[SUP]12 [/SUP]The Lord spoke to Moses, saying, [SUP]13 [/SUP]“But as for you, speak to the sons of Israel, saying, ‘You shall surely observe My sabbaths; for this is a sign between Me and you (Israel) throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the Lord who sanctifies you.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Therefore you are to observe the sabbath, for it is holy to you.


But as I said to you before, meet on Saturday, just understand that we are not under the law:
Romans 14:5-23
[SUP]5 [/SUP]One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind. [SUP]6 [/SUP]He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God. [SUP]7 [/SUP]For not one of us lives for himself, and not one dies for himself; [SUP]8 [/SUP]for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord; therefore whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s. [SUP]9 [/SUP]For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God. [SUP]11 [/SUP]For it is written,
“As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to Me,
And every tongue shall give praise to God.”

[SUP]12 [/SUP]So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather determine this—not to put an obstacle or a stumbling block in a brother’s way. [SUP]14 [/SUP]I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. [SUP]15 [/SUP]For if because of food your brother is hurt, you are no longer walking according to love. Do not destroy with your food him for whom Christ died. [SUP]16 [/SUP]Therefore do not let what is for you a good thing be spoken of as evil; [SUP]17 [/SUP]for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. [SUP]18 [/SUP]For he who in this way serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men.[SUP]19 [/SUP]So then we pursue the things which make for peace and the building up of one another. [SUP]20 [/SUP]Do not tear down the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are clean, but they are evil for the man who eats and gives offense. [SUP]21 [/SUP]It is good not to eat meat or to drink wine, or to do anything by which your brother stumbles. [SUP]22 [/SUP]The faith which you have, have as your own conviction before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. [SUP]23 [/SUP]But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin.

This, in my opinion, makes Sabbath observance wrong for some and Sunday worship wrong for others. But whether you worship Saturday or Sunday, do not "condemn" your brother for whom Christ died. Be convinced in your own mind that you are serving/glorifying God in the day that you regard above another. I personally do not push Sunday worship, since I don't see it supported any more than I see the Sabbath supported in the NT. They worshipped daily. Both sides are aware of this, yet "Very few seem to want to accept it". <Sorry, I just wanted to make a point - not intended to be harsh

 

[p_rehbein]

Hmmm, would you apply the same regimen to the seventh Commandment? We are not under Law but grace, so if you commit adultery it is no different that working on the seventh day right?

Committing murder is no different than working on the seventh day, right?

Seems to me this is a common misconception...............the difference is that 9 of the 10 Commandments were "carried over" from the First Covenant - Law, to the New Covenant - Grace............The one not carried over was the 4th........

 

[Apostol2013]

So do you accept sunday and the catholic church by accepting sunday as your authority you are under ?