The Security Of The Believer

[Bible_Highlighter]

Your basic problem is you don't know what "saved" is. You do not understand that nature of salvation or the new birth.

First, you did not address any of the verses I posted that refutes your wrong way of thinking.
Second, it would be more fruitful to our conversation to actually show me Scriptures of what your view of salvation and the new birth actually is.

This does put a question mark over YOU.

You have no authority if you are not speaking in line with the faith of the Bible.
So far that I have seen, you have failed to explain many verses I have put forth to you that refutes your wrong belief.

It will not do you any harm to check your self "is Christ really in me?" if He is then you have everlasting life if He is not then you do not have everlasting life. You can be religious but not saved. Religious folks are tossed about by every wind of doctrine. One day they are up the next day they are down, depending on their day to day experiences.

We are steadfast and sure, we know we have everlasting life.

The thing is that you really dont’ know the proper biblical test to check if a believer has Christ in them or not.
Granted, this does not even matter to many who hold to Perpetual Belief Alone Salvationism.
Many who believe in this type of belief have told me that you can be out of fellowship with Christ and still be saved.

Anyway, the way we know that Christ is in us is if we find we are keeping His commandments.

1 John 2:3
”And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.”

The person who says they know the Lord and yet they do not keep His commands is a liar and the truth is not in them.

1 John 2:4
”He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.”

Abiding in Christ is a salvation issue because that is what 1 John 5:12 says.

1 John 5:12
”He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.”

As for a believer in their struggle to overcome sin:

We are told this….

“…let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.” (2 Corinthians 7:1).

This verse above is just one of many verses in Scripture you don’t believe. You don’t believe in perfecting holiness because most in your camp believe you will be enslaved to sin this side of Heaven. You also change the word ”fear” in relation to God, as well. Fear does not mean fear to you but respect. But Philippians 2:12 says work out your salvation with fear and trembling. Obviously somebody trembles because they are in fear or they are afraid.

 

[JimmyTheLock]

maybe you fail recognise When Jesus hints at not being connected to the true vine he is given warning.

Duh!

That's what we are talking about here... when Jesus warns that it's possible to be cut off... He is serious!

Sadly, to hold to the OSAS position... one must reject the warnings Jesus gives and play like Jesus doesn't know what He talking about... or maybe Jesus was just joking or something.

 

[Nehemiah6]

One Christian admitted to me that he could mow down a crowd with a machine gun and be saved by believing in Jesus while doing so.

You say "one Christian". But no genuine Christian would say such a thing. Which means that this person may have been a "professing" Christian, but was not really saved.

Can there be many people like that? Absolutely. Here is where the parable of the wheat and tares applies. Tares are weeds that closely resemble wheat, but are not the genuine article. Making a mere profession of faith without genuine repentance is possible. So we need to understand this.

The Bible is crystal clear: the ones who are truly saved (who name the name of Christ) must DEPART FROM INIQUITY. They must do what is stated in Titus 2:11,12: For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

This is the convincing argument of our enemy that you raise here,

There's always a convincing argument from our enemy that appeals to heart of the believer that feels it has a worthwhile point.


Unless you live by a set a morals and experience, it's so easy to have the mindset not to fathom out what is the convincing argument that leads us into argument.

And what is the argument ?

Mostly the people who argue for Osas, argue you can not obtain salvation for yourself,

Ok this is true, but also this is obvious, again if we continue to argue about that, where arguing in a false premise.

Then we go to the number one argument of people who say works is important to salvation.

Yes this is true but if we continue to argu about works being proof of salvation, again we are inside a false premise, because the only proof is between the believer and the lord 🙂.


Just some we advice for the future

Always seek out what is the convincing argument and then avoid it 🙂 it generally comes from satan.

I see it is a basic difference

those who teach NOSAS believe works are required to be saved

Those who teach OSAS teach works are a byproduct of being saved.

Its a basic difference that gets twisted in many ways.

 

[wattie]

I see it is a basic difference

those who teach NOSAS believe works are required to be saved

Those who teach OSAS teach works are a byproduct of being saved.

Its a basic difference that gets twisted in many ways.

The works are a byproduct..but I think if we say they are guaranteed to happen..then that's back loading works into salvation. Like saying a believer definitely is going to be faithful.

A believer surely will have fruit from being saved..but they could get taught wrong things or get caugh in the wrong crowd etc.. and not exhibit the good works.

Doesn't mean 'never saved in the first place '

I don't think this is what you are saying, but it is the difference I have with some OSAS believers who will say a believer will 'endure to the end' and if they don't..they were never saved.

Imo that's not really OSAS.

 

[Fundaamental]

Duh! View attachment 258754

That's what we are talking about here... when Jesus warns that it's possible to be cut off... He is serious!

Sadly, to hold to the OSAS position... one must reject the warnings Jesus gives and play like Jesus doesn't know what He talking about... or maybe Jesus was just joking or something.

cutting branches off also enables new branches to grow 🙂.

Do di you think Jesus would burn the new branches when there's no need ?

 

[Fundaamental]

I see it is a basic difference

those who teach NOSAS believe works are required to be saved

Those who teach OSAS teach works are a byproduct of being saved.

Its a basic difference that gets twisted in many ways.

I believe there is some truth, when people say some may not have been saved in the first place,

I see some people who say there saved might use that argument to hide behind also.

But I think it's best to realise that Jesus addressed many people who where not saved

And most of his scripture Jesus spoke directly through his lips was before he went to the cross.

Of course if we takes Paul's account into it, where by Paul was being lead by the spirit of Jesus, you could say no there was many words of Jesus spoke even after the cross.

But when you take the words of Paul in a whole and summarise his account, you can see Paul was quite assured of his salvation 🙂

 

[Fundaamental]

The Vine and the Branches
15 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit,

Pause for thought what branches are cut of that are in Jesus ?.

Well those branches would be Christians 🙂.

More importantly at this stage notice Jesus says his father cuts them of.

Which means his Father is the gardener of Jesus

Even more importantly Jesus says his father cuts of every branch in me meaning that Christians become connected to Jesus 🙂

But most importantly at this stage he doesn't say theese Christians will be burned, in fact his very next sentence he mentions a different kind of cutting off, which is pruning, 🙂

That's right, when you prune a brach you also cut the bad bits off 🙂





while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

Pause for thought and notice above that pruning a branch is also cutting bad bits off 🙂

5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

Pause for thought above Jesus mentions branches being cut with a stern warning of such branches are burned. With no mention of you will be burned in hell,

So can we take this as a stern warning or should we twist it into a doctrine of it only means one thing.

How about we think of other ways a Christian can be punished ?.8

9 “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command. 15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. 17 This is my command: Love each other.

 

[Fundaamental]

Duh! View attachment 258754

That's what we are talking about here... when Jesus warns that it's possible to be cut off... He is serious!

Sadly, to hold to the OSAS position... one must reject the warnings Jesus gives and play like Jesus doesn't know what He talking about... or maybe Jesus was just joking or something.

have you ever thought that being cut of could imply you are left without the spirit for a while 🙂

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

The works are a byproduct..but I think if we say they are guaranteed to happen..then that's back loading works into salvation. Like saying a believer definitely is going to be faithful.

A believer surely will have fruit from being saved..but they could get taught wrong things or get caugh in the wrong crowd etc.. and not exhibit the good works.

Doesn't mean 'never saved in the first place '

I don't think this is what you are saying, but it is the difference I have with some OSAS believers who will say a believer will 'endure to the end' and if they don't..they were never saved.

Imo that's not really OSAS.

James said if we claim to have faith buy do nto have works out faith is dead.

No faith means no salvation.

But what of those who claim to have faith, but have many works. But there faith is in their works

that is where the works argument fails

works do not prove you had true saving faith.

 

[Bible_Highlighter]

You say "one Christian".

This was the one Christian I talked with in person. There were others online have admitted this to me before. George Sodini actually murdered several people and took his own life thinking he was saved by having a belief alone in Jesus. His church even said later that he was saved despite the evil that he did. See here. These are Hyper Grace Christians.

But no genuine Christian would say such a thing. Which means that this person may have been a "professing" Christian, but was not really saved.

In my experience there are two types of sin and still be saved Christians. There are the Hyper Grace Christians who claim they can sin as much as you like freely and you are saved. Then there is the other group who claim that we must strive to live right or holy but we cannot help but to sin on occasion. They believe they are slaves to sin this side of Heaven. They will claim that men like Sodini were not saved. But when push comes to shove, when I have talked with even these believers, they basically admit they can also sin and still be saved on some smaller level (as long as it is not murder, rape, bank theft, or any other really horrible sins). Some believe you have to confess and others believe you don’t have to confess of sin. Many do not see repentance as necessary for salvation. They both agree that one is saved solely by believing on the finished work of the cross (Which is not a saying even in the Bible). We also have to believe the resurrection, too. Anyway, I have been discussing this topic with other believers since 2010-11.

Can there be many people like that? Absolutely. Here is where the parable of the wheat and tares applies. Tares are weeds that closely resemble wheat, but are not the genuine article. Making a mere profession of faith without genuine repentance is possible. So we need to understand this.

I have been aware of this for a very long time.

The Bible is crystal clear: the ones who are truly saved (who name the name of Christ) must DEPART FROM INIQUITY. They must do what is stated in Titus 2:11,12: For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world.

We are told to continue in God’s grace. Continue in the faith. Continue in His goodness otherwise we can be cut off just like the Jews were cut off. We are told to abide in His love. So it’s a daily choice we must follow the Lord or not. Salvation is conditional and not unconditional. Sin can separate a believer from God. Such warnings are given to us by both Jesus and His followers in many places.

 

[Nehemiah6]

I have talked with even these believers, they basically admit they can also sin and still be saved on some smaller level...

So now the question you must ask yourself honestly is this "Am I capable of sinning, and have I sinned recently in thought, or word, or deed, or even in omission. And have I confessed my sins and repented?" I am sure you are convinced that you are saved, but can you tell everyone here that you are in fact SINLESSLY PERFECT? If not then you need to understand something.

The sin nature is NOT ERADICATED when a person is born again. So the capacity to sin is present in every believer. There is also a constant conflict between the "flesh" (sin nature) and the indwelling Holy Spirit. At the same time God says SIN SHALL NOT HAVE DOMINION OVER YOU. Which means that every Christian can resist temptation and refuse to sin. That is "walking in the Spirit".

GALATIANS 5: THE SPIRITUAL CONFLICT
16This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law...
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

 

[Bible_Highlighter]

So now the question you must ask yourself honestly is this "Am I capable of sinning, and have I sinned recently in thought, or word, or deed, or even in omission. And have I confessed my sins and repented?" I am sure you are convinced that you are saved, but can you tell everyone here that you are in fact SINLESSLY PERFECT? If not then you need to understand something.

It has nothing to do with me. What saith the Scriptures? The Bible is the truth and it is the standard.
I believe there are sins that are not unto death (1 John 5:16). One example would be baptism (1 Corinthians 1:17) (1 Peter 3:21). Another would be the first two sins mentioned in Matthew 5:22 (See the AMP translation while comparing it to the KJB).

Granted, while there are sins not unto death, believers are also told this: “….let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of God (2 Corinthians 7:1). Hebrews 12:14 says without holiness, no man shall see the Lord.

While Christians are initially and foundationally saved by God’s grace through faith (Which is a process of salvation without works), there is also 2 Thessalonians 2:13 that says that God has chosen you to salvation through Sanctification of the Spirit and a belief of the truth. This is living holy by the Spirit. Romans 8:13, and Galatians 6:8-9 also teach Sanctification as a part of salvation (Which is only applicable after we are first initially saved by God’s grace through faith without works - Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, Romans 4:3-4). It’s why James says we are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24). James is talking about Sanctification after a person is saved by God’s grace. Yet in our Initial Salvation, we are not first saved by works but by faith in God’s grace (Romans 11:6).

There are certain sins that can keep us out of God’s Kingdom if we do not overcome them in this life (See: Matthew 5:28-30) (Matthew 6:15) (Matthew 12:37) (Matthew 25:31-46) (Luke 9:62) (Galatians 5:19-21) (1 Timothy 5:8) (Revelation 21:8).

GALATIANS 5: THE SPIRITUAL CONFLICT[/B]
16This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law...
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

1 Peter 4:1-2, Galatians 5:24, and 2 Corinthians 7:1 are three pieces of Scripture that many Christians today do not accept or believe. They use 1 John 1:8 and Romans 7:14-24 as an excuse to sin on some level.

 

[Bible_Highlighter]

James said if we claim to have faith buy do nto have works out faith is dead.

No faith means no salvation.

But what of those who claim to have faith, but have many works. But there faith is in their works

that is where the works argument fails

works do not prove you had true saving faith.

The Parable of the Talents explains this. One needs to be faithful over a few things in order for the Lord to say to us, “Enter thou into the joy of thy Lord.” The unprofitable servant was told about how they were to be cast into outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. So just a belief alone will not save a believer unless they accepted Jesus Christ as their Savior on their death bed, or something.

 

[Nehemiah6]

While Christians are initially and foundationally saved by God’s grace through faith (Which is a process of salvation without works), there is also 2 Thessalonians 2:13 that says that God has chosen you to salvation through Sanctification of the Spirit and a belief of the truth.

You are confusing sanctification with justification. Justification is NOT a process but an accomplished fact for those who repent and believe. Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. (Rom 5:1,2) See Romans 3 -8. "Being justified" is the same as saying "having been justified" (past tense). Romans 4 makes this perfectly clear, since justification cannot be separated from the gift of imputed righteousness. Also, no one can be saved without having their souls washed in the blood of the Lamb and also receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit, who immediately regenerates that person.

But sanctification is a process which includes good works and righteous deeds and thoughts.
Here is what it means (2 Peter 1:3-8):
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. [divine love]
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Bible_Highlighter]

You are confusing sanctification with justification. Justification is NOT a process but an accomplished fact for those who repent and believe. Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. (Rom 5:1,2) See Romans 3 -8. "Being justified" is the same as saying "having been justified" (past tense). Romans 4 makes this perfectly clear, since justification cannot be separated from the gift of imputed righteousness. Also, no one can be saved without having their souls washed in the blood of the Lamb and also receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit, who immediately regenerates that person.

I believe we are initially saved by God’s grace through faith without works when we believe the gospel message in that Christ died for our sins, he was buried, and risen the third day (1 Corinthians 15:1-4). This will generally involve seeking forgiveness with the Lord Jesus Christ over their past life of sin (Romans 10:9) (Romans 10:13). Yes, it is true we are justified by faith in our Initial Salvation.

However, I used to think Justification ONLY existed for us when we were first saved by God’s grace. This is simply not the case. James 2:24 says we are justified by works and not by faith alone (or faith only).

Also, while we are to have faith in His blood (Romans 3:25), one of the ways in order to have the blood of Jesus to continue to cleanse us of all sin, is if we have walk in the light as He is in the light (See: 1 John 1:7). Walking in the light is loving your brother according to the indirect wording in 1 John 2:9-11.

Sanctification is a part of the faith. First, faith comes by hearing, and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17). This means hearing or believing everything in your Bible. Everything in your Bible is the faith including those verses on Sanctification. You have to believe those verses on Sanctification in your Bible. Second, James says that Abraham was justified by works when he offered up Isaac upon the alter. Now, if you were to turn to Hebrews 11, it says, … BY FAITH Abraham offered up Isaac upon the alter. So the works were a part of Abraham’s faith. It is why Paul mentions a thing called, “the work of faith” (1 Thessalonians 1:3) (2 Thessalonians 1:11).

But sanctification is a process which includes good works and righteous deeds and thoughts.
Here is what it means (2 Peter 1:3-8):
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. [divine love]
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

And you leave out the crucial details of the condition involved.

2 Peter 1:10-11

10 “Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:​

11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.”​

​

Meaning, the various different aspects of our holy conduct that Peter refers to is tied to:

(a) Not falling.
(b) Having entrance of the everlasting kingdom being abundantly ministered to us. Meaning, God will supply a way for us to make sure that our entrance into God’s Kingdom will be assured.

 

[Mem]

(a) Not falling.
(b) Having entrance of the everlasting kingdom being abundantly ministered to us. Meaning, God will supply a way for us to make sure that our entrance into God’s Kingdom will be assured.

a) how do we not fall if we must continue to 'carry our sins'? They are quite burdensome. Do you think yours is just swiping a cookie now and so then easily confessed and thus 'atoned' for?
b) and when will He do that? Should we be waiting for a Messiah?

 

[Bible_Highlighter]

a) how do we not fall if we must continue to 'carry our sins'? They are quite burdensome. Do you think yours is just swiping a cookie now and so then easily confessed and thus 'atoned' for?
b) and when will He do that? Should we be waiting for a Messiah?

I didn’t write the Bible. God did. 2 Peter 1:3-11 is saying that you abound in the things that are listed in this passage, you will not fall, and entrance to the Kingdom will be supplied to you abundantly. But imagine if you do not abound at all in the things Peter mentions. No entrance to the Kingdom will be abundantly supplied. Meaning, the unprofitable servant will be cast into outer darkness.

Also, holy living or Sanctification is merely a part of our faith that accesses God’s grace (See: 1 John 1:7).

 

[Mem]

I didn’t write the Bible.

What gave you the idea that I thought that you did?

 

[Romans34]

I believe we are initially saved by God’s grace through faith without works when we believe the gospel message in that Christ died for our sins, he was buried, and risen the third day (1 Corinthians 15:1-4). This will generally involve seeking forgiveness with the Lord Jesus Christ over their past life of sin (Romans 10:9) (Romans 10:13). Yes, it is true we are justified by faith in our Initial Salvation.

Initial Salvation? I'm sure what you mean by this is when one is initially saved, but one is either saved or lost (not saved). It is a state of being. That one has "everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." (John 5:24) And if one possesses eternal life, he cannot pass from life back unto death (or the life he has is not eternal). It is a permanently finished transaction.

1 John 5:12, "He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life."

However, I used to think Justification ONLY existed for us when we were first saved by God’s grace. This is simply not the case. James 2:24 says we are justified by works and not by faith alone (or faith only).

The context of the second chapter of James is not salvation. The man's justifcation in verse 24 is not of his soul, but his standing before God and his testimony before the world. Abraham was a saved man already (as pointed out in verse 23 which explains how he was saved by faith) and he was not offering Isaac up for his own soul's salvation. He was being obedient to the God Who had already saved his soul, so that his faith was made perfect (v.22), meaning complete or mature. He showed his faith by his works.