R
Romans34
Guest
If the Lord was "all good with people living in sin", then He wouldn't be calling it a "falling away".
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Yep, this shows it is possible for one to fall away from the faith which is not saying they were never born again in the first place because one cannot fall away from the faith if they were never in the faith to begin with.
one thing to note about a lot of falling away verses, they don't mention anything about these people actually correcting their behavior. I think there's a difference between someone who claims to believe and doesn't actually repent, they might ask forgiveness and turn right around and do whatever it was again the next day because they weren't serious about repenting.
It's different when someone recognizes his sin and works to correct their views and behavior. They might struggle again with said problem sometime in the future, but the pattern of sin should become less and less.
It's different when someone recognizes his sin and works to correct their views and behavior. They might struggle again with said problem sometime in the future, but the pattern of sin should become less and less.
is the falling away about actions? or about belief? or about the One Who restrains?
is it about believers or about the unbelieving world?
what does the text indicate?
"Falling Away," is this about Christians living in sin or refusing to repent of sin?
R
Romans34
Guest
The phrase "a falling away" is translated from ἡ ἀποστασία, or "the apostacy", which is defined as "voluntary and deliberate desertion; defection; revolt; renunciation; abandonment of allegiance (loyalty)". I believe it is referring to believers (more properly churches) leaving the faith (the system of doctrine that Jesus taught). So only those who have the faith and are loyal to Him in the first place can commit this sin of abandonment of allegiance.
is "He that restrains" restraining Christians?
deliberate defection can refer to people who identified themselves with something they never truly were, and then dropped all pretense. the same word is used in Acts when the Jews were falsely saying Paul taught apostasy - and they certainly didn't meant to imply he was deserting the gospel; rather, they were conflating the gospel with the law of Moses.
R
Romans34
Guest
In 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7 states, "And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way." The word "withholdeth" (verse 6) is translated from the same word as "letteth" in the next verse. I would say that the "mystery of iniquity" that is already at work (to produce the antichrist) [colon] is what is being restrained (by the power of the Holy Spirit) until the restraint is removed, (verse 8) "And then shall that Wicked be revealed . . ."
so is He that retraineth restrainng Christians from sin or restraining the world from sin?
when He is removed does that mean no one is ever saved and never has been, or that the world is ready to be judged?
R
Romans34
Guest
In the words of Scripture, "and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition . . ." (2 Thessalonians 2:3). God doesn't restrain His children, nor the world from sin (free will), but in this day ". . . because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And fort his cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth . . ." (verses 10b-12a). So it is highly advisable for men to take God at His word when He reveals truth to them, and believe Him while they have opportunity. But I digressed. This is talking about unbelievers, and this thread is about the Security of the Believer.
The title of this thread is called "the security of the believer." Your post says that "only believers" can commit apostasy. From putting the title of this thread + your post together you seem to be saying security of the believer is in the hands of the believer. A believer can choose to stay secured or they can "fall away." Am I understanding correctly what you're saying here?
For Holy Scripture testifies that perseverance follows from election and is granted to the chosen by virtue of Christ’s death, resurrection, and intercession: The chosen obtained it; the others were hardened (Rom. 11:7); likewise, He who did not spare his own son, but gave him up for us all–how will he not, along with him, grant us all things? Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who is he that condemns? It is Christ Jesus who died–more than that, who was raised–who also sits at the right hand of God, and is also interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? (Rom. 8:32-35).
R
Romans34
Guest
No, you are not understanding at all. The security of the believer is in God's hand, and His alone. Once saved (born again), we are secure in Him by His power for His purposes. We are secure because His power CANNOT be overcome by ANY, including the believer. And while some say we can "jump out of His hand", He wouldn't allow it, given the price He paid to secure us, and now that He OWNS us (and we don't belong to ourselves anymore), He doesn't allow us to do so. It's ALL ABOUT HIM, not us. The reason Paul said, "I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ" (Romans 9:3) is because he knew he COULD NOT.
Now, on "falling away". As previously stated, those falling away are those who were once loyal, voluntarily and deliberately deserting, defecting, revolting, abandoning their allegiance. The one "falling away" is NOT abandoning their relationship with Him, they are abandoning their allegiance to Him. This is not about the parent-child relationship, it's about the covenant (marital) relationship. It's not about salvation, but service.
R
Romans34
Guest
I borrowed from two earlier posts for simplicity:
I don't equate the Biblical doctrine of the eternal security of the believer with Calvinism because Calvinism takes away the God given free will of the individual to make the decision for themselves (even if they go through the motions of belief in a God Who has really made the decision for them). The Biblical teaching of the eternal security of the believer allows "whosoever will may come". [post 1719]
I'd rather stick to the Gospel of Jesus Christ, according to Jesus Christ, which pre-dates Calvin's false gospel about 1500 years. The doctrine of The Eternal Security Of The Believer was taught for about 1500 years BEFORE Calvin was even born. Jesus, the apostles, and His churches taught the truth long before Calvin. I'd rather stick with what has stood the test of time rather then a newcomer like Calvin. [post 1822]
Sorry for the confusion! I was replying to a much earlier post stating that scripture does not support perseverance which is not true. There is much scripture to support this. It is not true only because Calvin says so, scripture also proclaims this truth.
As for free will, I would only disagree with you on one point. I believe that we lost our ability to put our trust in God with fall of Adam. We only regain this ability once we are given a new heart. Free will is based on the desires of the heart!
Romans 8:32-35 are very beautiful powerful wonderful verses. PTL!
But how do these verses clearly say that once a person has been saved that they can never be lost? Please explain?
Heb: 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.
If the Father gives a person, (elect), to Christ, He dies for them, the Spirit brings them to faith; do you really think that He will ever let them go? He never changes! No, they are secure!
They may stray, but He will not let then depart forever.
So does Hebrews 13:8 say that once a person is saved, that they can never be lost again?
Absolutely not! It only states that God does not change. He does not do something one minute, and then say “Oops I guess I made a mistake”. Christ died for their sins! That fact will never change. Therefore, his people are secure.
All scripture must be brought together to understanding it as a whole.