I see now. Does that mean you are saying those who "fall away" will still go to Heaven?
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
The question is -- what are they falling away from? Eternal salvation or close relationship? Looking at scripture, eternal salvation isn't the subject for this verse.. it's what happens after salvation.. going on to maturity. That is what Hebrews 5 and 6 are about. Things that accompany salvation, going on to maturity. Leaving the elementary principles of Christ.
They are falling away from growth into mature christians.. not eternal salvation.
They are falling away from growth into mature christians.. not eternal salvation.
How do we know once they've fallen away they just don't go to serving something else, replacing God with idol worship? Whenever I have seen people fall away they normally become the "best sinner" they can be.
So you admit that there are no verses that explicitly say that once a person is saved, that they can never be lost?
Chester, you are correct.
I know of no verse that states that God stood on a mountain top and proclaimed “once a person is saved, they can never be lost”.
I know of no verse that states that God stood on a mountain top and proclaimed “once a person is saved, they can never be lost”.
And?
Jesus will discipline and rebuke His children. Just like a mother and father discipline their children. The wayward believer could get kicked from their church, lose friends, experience rebuke from the Holy Spirit. God may even remove them from this planet..end their life to stop them affecting others.. but He gave them ETERNAL life. That means it's forever.
They will miss rewards.. but not lose eternal life.
R
Romans34
Guest
Romans 6:9-10, "Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God."
1 Timothy 2:6, "Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time."
2 Corinthians 5:14-15, "For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again."
Hebrews 2:9, "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man."
I firmly believe God keeps His promise to anyone who is saved. But falling away can be more than just how you define it. It can be more than just being booted from a church and what you listed. It could be flat out rejecting God to have Him Lord of their life. If you tell God I no longer want you Lord of your life then God will do as you ask. I read nowhere that God says I am making you still be with me. Can you show me that verse that you seem to be applying here?
Well first thing-- at salvation.. we accept Jesus sacrifice on our behalf. It is nothing that we do to get salvation. He doesn't become Lord over every area of our life right then and there. It isn't a commitment to do good works. It's receiving His salvation because we CAN'T earn it. So.. this salvation doesn't belong to us. He owns it... He keeps it.
(Joh 10:28) And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
(Joh 10:29) My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
(2Ti 2:11) It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
(2Ti 2:12) If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
(2Ti 2:13) If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
Is this Timothy verses contradicting ? No. The denial is the holding back of rewards by context. Plus it says if we believe not.. He abideth faithful.
The main thing being here is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
If I swallow an apple.. I can't then 'leave' the apple. It's actually inside me. The same thing goes with the Holy Spirit indwelling.. it's a physical possession.. the Holy Spirit is not actually outside of us.
(1Pe 1:3) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
(1Pe 1:4) To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
(1Pe 1:5) Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
The last thing:
If someone goes off completely the opposite to Jesus, then it is fair to question what they believed to begin with. This isn't a 'license to sin'. As I said.. the Holy Spirit will discipline His children.
But He isn't going to LEAVE His child. Also.. 'God won't leave me, but I can leave God'.. is illogical.. because God would be staying with you in the process of you trying to leave Him! He KNOWS BETTER.
Some good questions you are asking here . . .
A key part of this discussion is what is "eternal life"?
If you define eternal life primarily as "living forever" then unbelievers also have eternal life.
But that is not what eternal life is . . .!
One must always start by defining the noun and not the adjective: "life" is the noun; "eternal" is the adjective
So what then is "life" (Greek - zoe)? Life is knowing God (see John 17:3): zoe is a quality of life, not primarily quantity of living
So the person you describe above who no longer wants God, who swears against God, and has no relationship with God does not have life (zoe).
But this does not mean that the person who is believing in Jesus is insecure and scared of falling! Far from it! The one who has life in the Son and lives out of that grabbing hold of the Son has a deep settled peace and rest in His Redeemer.
It is the person who believes in "once saved always saved" who is more likely to wrestle with assurance of salvation: "what if I was never born again correctly?" . . . hence walk down the sawdust trail again (or respond to the altar call) and do it all over again . . .
good point, it also figures that not all falling away verses are refering to exactly the same type either.
The above is exactly what I referenced in post #1951:
"Once saved always saved" in actuality teaches that one must keep on doing good works in order to be secure and have assurance of salvation. If you do not keep on doing enough good works (or if you are deeply struggling with sin - especially the bad, unacceptable sins, then it will be assumed that you were never saved to begin with.)
I believe one's salvation is determined not by whether you keep on doing works, or if you sometime in the past had a correct new birth experience. I believe one's salvation is determined by whether one is believing in Jesus Christ.
I have read everything you posted and "nowhere" does the Bible claim it's a removal of rewards. That is something you are making up. Show me direct verses that say to reject or deny God is the removal of ""rewards?""
I believe in every aspect of a "secured salvation." I just don't see anywhere in the Bible if we decide to forfeit, reject, deny God that it is "simply the loss of rewards." That cannot be found anywhere. To even suggest that is absolutely adding to the Bible.
Actually, the opposite is true. OSAS says we remain in Christ. Those who don't believe in OSAS believe they need to perform and endure through obedience and works. Those who believe OSAS believe that God has begun the good work and will continue it until the day of Jesus Christ.
End result of both systems is actually kind of similiar, though I don't think simply struggling with sin indicates anything by itself, now when they stop struggling and just let the sin go on the other hand......For a righteous man may fall seven times And rise again, But the wicked shall fall by calamity. proverbs 24:16
Can you show me where this is at in the Bible or just your reasoning? Where in the Bible does it say if someone turns against God after knowing God they were not saved to begin with? That is nowhere in the Bible. Is this just your opinion or what you have read into it?
We all sin even though it is "not counted" as sin because a true sheep will confess and repent immediately. But to suggest that someone who knows God, then rejects God was "never saved" to begin with is nowhere in the Bible. How can an idea that "is not" mentioned nor even suggested become a belief? That seems very demonic to me if we believe something not based directly from the Bible.
I'm not saying they were never saved to begin with after having believed. I'm saying if there is NO fruit from salvation it is fair to question their salvation .