The Sin of Pacifism

[Deadtosin]

My one resort would be "stop drop the gun" count to five or if he fires or turns toward me. Bang bang bang until they would be neutralized threat over.

For me every situation is different. There is a time for everything. I will live in the moment and trust God to put in my heart what is to be done. I will not hesitate under any circumstance. Any man who understands emergencies knows that hesitation means death. There is no room for hesitation or panic. It's my faith in the Lord that gives me peace and a cool head. With that being said (just to put myself out there for the record) There are situations I can imagine that could easily result in a human losing their life. Make no mistake about it, death comes easy. You could push someone over and they can hit their head on concrete and die. In that instance we will just have to assume that God wanted it that way. All I know is that there is zero chance that I can see a murder taking place and do nothing.. Not only is doing nothing not an option, but losing is not an option. If I am someones last line of defense and I perish I helped them not a bit. I stand by these words

"I feel 100% better about standing in front of God explaining why I killed that man to save that child than I would feel about explaining why I let that child get murdered."

In fact it is exactly that issue that leads to my confidence in this situation. Under no circumstance will I stand before God with that second situation. I absolutely refuse- because I know better. God wouldn't put me there just to watch. If God didn't want that man to die (if that was to be the result) then God could have put it on my heart to go somewhere else, could have put it on that mans heart not to do it- could have snapped my leg when I was walking, hurt that mans back when he rose from his chair, put him in a car wreck on his way or gave me an emergency phone call from a family member. The reality is that everything happened just exactly as it did to land me right in front of a man trying to kill a child and I have but one question to answer "should I do something?" answer "Without a doubt."

 

[Ecclesiastik]

The thing is though is why the divorce took place. Jesus allowed divorce if it was done because of sexual immorality in the relationship which then would make it alright to remarry. Plus it does not say nothing against getting remarried if the woman was not married to begin with.

Then you mentioned Christians in China getting abortions, I have seen some that call themselves Christians here in America that believe in or have gotten abortions.

I do agree with much of what you have said though, and that is one thing I try to do on here is show others scripture like Paul tried to do. Teach scripture without mans traditions, customs, philosophies, and their own personal morals changing how they want it to say.

How can you be re-married if you weren't married to begin with? In this case it would be a marriage.

 

[Ecclesiastik]

Well Ecclestiacik, I come from a staunch Irish Catholic family and the only reason divorce was permitted was for adultery, according to God's word. Never mind that my cousins husband physically abused her. That wasn't good enough reason to divorce your husband according to church doctrine. Fortunately for her, one night, he put a gun against her head (without pulling the trigger) in front of their children and she woke up from the fog you and Jason are still in.
I swear, I wish I had you and Jason in front of me right now. I would slap you so frigging silly you wouldn't know what day it was.

Thank you for proving my point.

Also Irish Catholic is not Christian. Repent from your sins and trust in Jesus today to be forgiven. Do not trust in your good works for your salvation. You don't get to heaven because you are baptized and go to church and feed the homeless. You get to heaven by being born again in the blood of Jesus. You become a new creature and God changes you from the inside out.

 

[Ecclesiastik]

that's not what they are saying. They are saying as a "no resort" in fact they (for sure Jason) is against even raising your fist to prevent a murder.

I think I'm against raising my fist too now that I'm thinking more on it. Maybe pushing the guy or tackling them. But even that I'm not seeing as the best way. No doubt the apostles lived and went into very depraved situations and so did Jesus. But I just can't picture them beating anyone up. In fact, to my recollection, the only instance in the New Testament of violence is either a result of the Holy Spirit doing the violence or Jesus using a whip to drive people out of the temple. And I'm not even sure He hit people with it or was just slapping stuff off the tables. I'd imagine the latter is more likely. Otherwise there might have been legal issues.

 

[Jason0047]

I think I'm against raising my fist too now that I'm thinking more on it. Maybe pushing the guy or tackling them. But even that I'm not seeing as the best way. No doubt the apostles lived and went into very depraved situations and so did Jesus. But I just can't picture them beating anyone up. In fact, to my recollection, the only instance in the New Testament of violence is either a result of the Holy Spirit doing the violence or Jesus using a whip to drive people out of the temple. And I'm not even sure He hit people with it or was just slapping stuff off the tables. I'd imagine the latter is more likely. Otherwise there might have been legal issues.

I agree. I don't believe Jesus whipped anyone (Whereby he left them with scars) because the Jews would have used that against Him as evidence to crucifiy Him. For the Pharisees were desperately trying to pin something on Him and they really were not coming up with much.

 

[Jason0047]

I did not say they were nothing, I said they are things you should do, but you should also try to stop them.
Even if you restrain some one in a non-violent way, you are still using physical actions to stop them which is what I said.

The thing is though if you just sit there and pray and do nothing reminds me of a saying I heard;

A man was sitting on the roof of his house because a flood had trapped him there.
He prayed to God to come and save him. A man in a row boat came by and said get in, and he told the man no God will come and save me. Then a helicopter came by and they tossed out a rope and yelled for him to grab it and climb up and in, and he told them no God will come and save me.
The waters kept rising and then washed the man away and he drowned. When he stood in front of the Lord he said why did you let me die when I asked for your help. The Lord answered and said I sent you a man in a boat, and a helicopter but you sent them both away.

This would be the third time we already been over this story (of which I refuted).

#1. Taking violent action in self defense is not the same as escaping a situation that is not violent. One involves the person being aggressive and the other involves the person leaving peacefully. Both of these situations are nothing alike.

#2. Hezekiah's prayer actually stopped a whole army. Wow. Think about that. Do you believe you worship that same God? Imagine if he didn't pray or refused to pray. I would say that his pray was in fact doing something. It is called faith. Faith in God. Do you believe He can do the same for you? If not, I imagine Hezekiah would have a few words to say to you.

#3. God is the giver and taker of life. There is a set appointed time for every person's death that they cannot pass. So to think you can control life or death is just silly. God is the One who takes life.

#4. God is sovereign. God is in control. You can't do anything unless God approves of it.

 

[Ecclesiastik]

I agree. I don't believe Jesus whipped anyone (Whereby he left them with scars) because the Jews would have used that against Him as evidence to crucifiy Him. For the Pharisees were desperately trying to pin something on Him and they really were not coming up with much.

I watched a documentary called Nefarious. It is about prostitution/sex trafficking/slavery. It was made by a supposedly Christian guy who started a supposedly Christian group called Exodus Cry. In one of the scenes where they went to somewhere like Thailand or Africa where people went to abuse little children sexually, they found another white guy who was there looking for some kids. The Exodus Cry guy ran up and grabbed the pedophile by his shirt and said something like: "Hey! Get out of here and never come back again. You better NEVER come back again or something bad is gonna happen." in a threatening manner

I imagine most people in this thread would be clapping their hands at what this guy did. But it is far from what Christ would do. I was shaking my head and thinking "You just let that guy go to hell. And he will be back." But then again maybe they should have killed him on the spot. Perhaps they were criminally negligent to not put down that mad dog right then and there. Personally, I think there's a better way.

 

[Jason0047]

I watched a documentary called Nefarious. It is about prostitution/sex trafficking/slavery. It was made by a supposedly Christian guy who started a supposedly Christian group called Exodus Cry. In one of the scenes where they went to somewhere like Thailand or Africa where people went to abuse little children sexually, they found another white guy who was there looking for some kids. The Exodus Cry guy ran up and grabbed the pedophile by his shirt and said something like: "Hey! Get out of here and never come back again. You better NEVER come back again or something bad is gonna happen." in a threatening manner

I imagine most people in this thread would be clapping their hands at what this guy did. But it is far from what Christ would do. I was shaking my head and thinking "You just let that guy go to hell. And he will be back." But then again maybe they should have killed him on the spot. Perhaps they were criminally negligent to not put down that mad dog right then and there. Personally, I think there's a better way.

Reminds me of what Jesus said in Matthew 24:12,

"And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold."​

We have to keep shining a light in a dark and dying world and talk about Jesus and pray for others under every circumstance and situation, my brother.

In fact, here is a really good animated short video that I feel speaks to the topic at hand:

[video=youtube;j3lwsOPEpMw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3lwsOPEpMw[/video]

I believe it is relevant because it speaks about how are love for Jesus Christ goes beyond how this world would want us to think, act, and behave. That we would be willing to lay down our life for another or die for our faith so as to glorify Jesus Christ.

 

[Jason0047]

For me every situation is different. There is a time for everything. I will live in the moment and trust God to put in my heart what is to be done. I will not hesitate under any circumstance. Any man who understands emergencies knows that hesitation means death. There is no room for hesitation or panic. It's my faith in the Lord that gives me peace and a cool head. With that being said (just to put myself out there for the record) There are situations I can imagine that could easily result in a human losing their life. Make no mistake about it, death comes easy. You could push someone over and they can hit their head on concrete and die. In that instance we will just have to assume that God wanted it that way. All I know is that there is zero chance that I can see a murder taking place and do nothing.. Not only is doing nothing not an option, but losing is not an option. If I am someones last line of defense and I perish I helped them not a bit. I stand by these words

"I feel 100% better about standing in front of God explaining why I killed that man to save that child than I would feel about explaining why I let that child get murdered."

In fact it is exactly that issue that leads to my confidence in this situation. Under no circumstance will I stand before God with that second situation. I absolutely refuse- because I know better. God wouldn't put me there just to watch. If God didn't want that man to die (if that was to be the result) then God could have put it on my heart to go somewhere else, could have put it on that mans heart not to do it- could have snapped my leg when I was walking, hurt that mans back when he rose from his chair, put him in a car wreck on his way or gave me an emergency phone call from a family member. The reality is that everything happened just exactly as it did to land me right in front of a man trying to kill a child and I have but one question to answer "should I do something?" answer "Without a doubt."

First, we are not advocating in doing nothing to save the life of a child from danger or death. I believe a New Testament believer should do everything within their power to try and stop a bad person from hurting a child without using lethal force. Second, God is the giver and taker of life. The Lord takes the lives of children. It is not wrong because they are not really dead and gone. But they are taken to a better place in Heaven with God. In other words, nobody can kill or do anything to any child unless God approves of it. God lets suffering and death happen because we live in a fallen world and He desires us to repent. In other words, you act like this reality is the ultimate reality. It's not. The final and real world is the one you cannot see.

 

[Jason0047]

All you did was identify the 144, 000. How exactly are they exclusive to being the saints who follow Jesus down from out of Heaven?

Revelation 14:1-3 is speaking of Mount Zion after Jesus has set up the Millennial Kingdom.

1. The 144,000 sang a new song before the throne. Jesus is going to set up a throne and they are going to sing in battle?

2. The four beasts and the elders are going to be there on Zion, too?

3. The 144,000 had been redeemed from the Earth. They are the first fruits of the resurrection.​

Revelation 14:1-3
"And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

Check my chronology of Revelation here:
(Mount Zion is mentioned three times within it):

ECT Chronology of Revelation & the Olivet Discourse, etc. - Theology Online | Christian Forums & More

 

[A_Friend_In_Christ]

Answer the question?

 

[Jason0047]

Jason, I don't think they are going to relent an inch until you say that killing an unbeliever in self defense/defense of others is okay even though the New Testament defines a better way both biblically and historically.

This is what happens when your culture clashes with Christianity. You have divorced people remarrying and saying "Well ya know...Jesus couldn't possibly have meant....He wouldn't want me to be lonely! The flesh wants what it wants!" You have Christians getting abortions in China under the one child law and saying "We must submit to the authorities...even if it means disobeying God and murdering our children...but it's not really us murdering if we are just obeying the government...." And you have Christians marching around with AK-47's under a biblical interpretation that under any other circumstances they would have ridiculed someone for using. Trying to find obscure and non-doctrinal verses in the New Testament to back up what you are beliving like the Mormons use "there's a difference between celestial bodies and terrestial bodies" to somehow come up with the doctrine that there are three levels of heaven and absolutely no hell and then if that's not good enough, let's refer back to Old Testament laws even though we know things are different now. But because their modern day culture agrees with it and it sounds right to their understanding, there is no backlash.

Under the same interpretation, I can bring back polygamy. What about Abraham and his wives? What about David and his wives? These were men after God's heart! You have to take the WHOLE Bible into account guys. I know there's verses in the New Testament about one man and one woman (just like i know there's verses against violence) but that's just for certain circumstances like if I was going to be a bishop or a deacon. Besides, isn't it natural for a man to want more than one woman?



This is why I don't want to be a cultural Christian. I don't want to allow my generation to define the Bible, I want the Bible to define my life. I want to step outside of my culture and my personal opinion of right and wrong (which many are hindered by) and ask: What does the Book say? Let's really take a look at it. Let's not hold back. Let's live for the glory of God!

I agree.

As for Polygamy: As you might know, it was never justified or approved of by God; Here is a good article that explains the many wives and concubines in the Old Testament:

Here's the Plain Truth About OLD TESTAMENT POLYGAMY

 

[Ella85]

Nobody laughing about an ACTUAL RAPE, but rather at your inability to blend ALL truth to come up with a sound, solid theology....SO....again you judge people's heart and salvation which you have no ability to do....so....!

Obviously didn't see the antic ...... same as like not willing to see the meaning behind what EVERYONE on this thread is saying.

 

[Ella85]

Uh, I do recall you laughing at a joke about someone having been raped. Yes, it was under an askewed view of my belief on this topic, but it was still heartless and inappropriate. Whether you agee with my view on this topic within the Bible or not, making jokes about rape and laughing about it under any situation or scenario is wrong and sinful. And the church can say correct each other and tell someone that their heart is not right with God. See the story of Simon the sorcerer.

ohhh man....

 

[Jason0047]

Obviously didn't see the antic ...... same as like not willing to see the meaning behind what EVERYONE on this thread is saying.

No. Joking or laughing about rape in a hypothetical scenario is wrong and sinful. Trying to defend such an action just makes it worse.

 

[Ella85]

Many would say that Marine Corps doctrine (or military doctrine as a whole) is demonic. Especially with what you have just said, that just seems to add to that statement. This is even coming from non-pacifists in the military. I've talked to a number of people who have admitted that the military is not a good place for Christians and the stuff we do can be satanic.

That was the most ridiculous thing I have ever read.

 

[Ecclesiastik]

That was the most ridiculous thing I have ever read.

Please inform us about your experience with the military.

 

[Jason0047]

ohhh man....

Also, in reply to the post that you quoted: Believers can tell other believers that they may need to get their heart right with God if they do something wrong or sinful. For Peter rebuked Simon for his evil in regards to the Spirit.

Acts 8:18-24
And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost. But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God. Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee. For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity. Then answered Simon, and said, Pray ye to the Lord for me, that none of these things which ye have spoken come upon me.

 

[Ella85]

Jason, I don't think they are going to relent an inch until you say that killing an unbeliever in self defense/defense of others is okay even though the New Testament defines a better way both biblically and historically.

This is what happens when your culture clashes with Christianity. You have divorced people remarrying and saying "Well ya know...Jesus couldn't possibly have meant....He wouldn't want me to be lonely! The flesh wants what it wants!" You have Christians getting abortions in China under the one child law and saying "We must submit to the authorities...even if it means disobeying God and murdering our children...but it's not really us murdering if we are just obeying the government...." And you have Christians marching around with AK-47's under a biblical interpretation that under any other circumstances they would have ridiculed someone for using. Trying to find obscure and non-doctrinal verses in the New Testament to back up what you are beliving like the Mormons use "there's a difference between celestial bodies and terrestial bodies" to somehow come up with the doctrine that there are three levels of heaven and absolutely no hell and then if that's not good enough, let's refer back to Old Testament laws even though we know things are different now. But because their modern day culture agrees with it and it sounds right to their understanding, there is no backlash.

Under the same interpretation, I can bring back polygamy. What about Abraham and his wives? What about David and his wives? These were men after God's heart! You have to take the WHOLE Bible into account guys. I know there's verses in the New Testament about one man and one woman (just like i know there's verses against violence) but that's just for certain circumstances like if I was going to be a bishop or a deacon. Besides, isn't it natural for a man to want more than one woman?



This is why I don't want to be a cultural Christian. I don't want to allow my generation to define the Bible, I want the Bible to define my life. I want to step outside of my culture and my personal opinion of right and wrong (which many are hindered by) and ask: What does the Book say? Let's really take a look at it. Let's not hold back. Let's live for the glory of God!

First of all we are not robots - We were born with feelings and emotions.
Some things you have stated are fictional. This is the real word....... and it seems that you have bypassed what most people are saying..

I find this completely ignorant and annoying to be honest.
This comes back to the same point of ..... where does your relationship with Christ lie?
Is this based upon your own feelings and judgement or does the spirit of God lead your life?

 

[Ella85]

Please inform us about your experience with the military.

I simply disagree with your statement.
Capish.