The Sinful Charge of Idolatry Against King James Bible Believers

[Andrew1]

King James Bible believers hold that the King James Bible is perfect in the sense of being an entirely accurate transmission of the original scriptures from times past into our present English tongue. We are attentive to the minutia of the words of scripture understanding that changes in even the little words can have big effects on it’s meaning. We therefore have a great zeal for the words of God and are very concerned over any possible corruption that might sneak into the text, as such we earnestly guard against this. This is the heart and attitude of the King James Bible believer. There are some who would say that our reverence for God’s word amounts to idolatry, this is a most unfortunate and uncharitable charge by those who would call themselves the brethren of the faith. For even if King James Bible believers were wrong in their assessment of the King James Bible this charge against them would still be a false accusation and therefore be a violation of the ninth commandment. First of all to believe that something other than God is perfect is not idolatry for that would require that the same charge of idolatry be laid against all who believe in the perfection of angels and of all the substances of heaven. Furthermore to have a zeal and reverence for something that is not God cannot be called idolatry for Jesus in John 2:14-17 was shown to have great zeal for the temple when he drove the money changers out of it, it would be quite blasphemous to imply that Jesus was an idolater. And God commanded the Israelites in his law in Leviticus 19:30 and 26:2 to “reverence” His sanctuary. The charge of idolatry against King James is false and such a charge is bearing false witness against them. If you are against the position that God preserved his word without any errors (inerrant) in the King James Bible then I at the very least recommend for your sake that you not lay this charge in your attempt to discredit our position.

 

[epostle]

The KJV is a lovely version and I read it myself sometimes.
King James commissioned scholars to translate the Bible for the Church of England. My question is, why does the CofE use other versions as well?

 

[Magenta]

First of all to believe that something other than God is perfect is not idolatry for that would require that the same charge of idolatry be laid against all who believe in the perfection of angels and of all the substances of heaven.

Satan is an angel, as are the 1/3 of heaven that followed him.

 

[posthuman]

zeal, no doubt! but there is also such a thing as "zeal without knowledge"

the charge is made on the basis of such observation that, were someone to point out that Matthew 23:24 in all the most reliable Greek says "strain out a gnat and swallow a camel" where the KJV rendered the verse "strain at a gnat and swallow a camel" -- a sizable proportion of "KJB believers" are more than willing to reject the evidence of the original languages purely on the basis of their loyalty to this particular translation, and insist to the point of dissolving fellowship that the demonstrably wrong rendering is correct.
that a person would remain willfully ignorant of fact, and by so doing set this translation above the truth in their heart, is qualitatively and quantitatively arguable as tantamount to idolatry.

just so we're clear on why such charges are often made.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

This proves that the KJV is not perfect. In Acts 15, James quoted a prophecy in Amos 9:12. It matches the translation found in the Septuagint. The KJV is different.

Amos 9:12 in Acts 15 (KJV)

That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. Acts 15:17​

Amos 9:12 in the Septuagint

That the remnant of men, and all the Gentiles upon whom my name is called, may earnestly seek [me], saith the Lord who does all these things. ​ Amos 9:12​

Amos 9:12 in the KJV

That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the LORD that doeth this. Amos 9:12​

 

[Magenta]

.
Where is Tintin?

 

[KennethC]

KJV does have some translation errors in it, and it would be blind to ignore that.

However with that being said tons of scholars have researched this an have stated it does not effect the gospel message.

Research has shown bad errors in other versions as well, so we should not just pick on the KJV.

The NIV, NASB, and others have their issues as well; some being major !!!

 

[crossnote]

King James Bible believers hold that the King James Bible is perfect in the sense of being an entirely accurate transmission of the original scriptures from times past into our present English tongue. We are attentive to the minutia of the words of scripture understanding that changes in even the little words can have big effects on it’s meaning.

Problem is many more early manuscripts have been found since the 17th century through excavations and archaeological digs etc. As we compile all the manuscripts we see there are small differences between the COPIES (we do not have the originals for comparison). The KJV is not perfect in the sense that many of the early copies had not been discovered at the time of it's translation but neither are the more recent translations perfect due to their variances.
So by comparing all the early manuscrpts we can approach a high degree of accuracy reflecting the originals but to say any one translation is perfect is delusional.

 

[Yonah]

I use at least 30 different versions in my studies, that fact is anything that mans hands have touched is not infallible, but the Father knows how to lead those who seek the truth and no matter what version they read the Spirit can lead them and guide them into all truth...(john 16:13)

 

[Andrew1]

Well, so far no one has accused me of idolatry. I wonder if anyone can make the case that I am an idolater for the position I hold. Personally I think I have adequately proved that I or those that believe like me are not.

 

[Andrew1]

Satan is an angel, as are the 1/3 of heaven that followed him.

Obviously I'm not referring to fallen angels.

 

[KJV1611]

zeal, no doubt! but there is also such a thing as "zeal without knowledge"

the charge is made on the basis of such observation that, were someone to point out that Matthew 23:24 in all the most reliable Greek says "strain out a gnat and swallow a camel" where the KJV rendered the verse "strain at a gnat and swallow a camel" -- a sizable proportion of "KJB believers" are more than willing to reject the evidence of the original languages purely on the basis of their loyalty to this particular translation, and insist to the point of dissolving fellowship that the demonstrably wrong rendering is correct.
that a person would remain willfully ignorant of fact, and by so doing set this translation above the truth in their heart, is qualitatively and quantitatively arguable as tantamount to idolatry.

just so we're clear on why such charges are often made.

In the passage below which is the gnat and which is the camel?

Matthew 23:23 KJV
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

 

[posthuman]

In the passage below which is the gnat and which is the camel?

Matthew 23:23 KJV
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

i think that primarily speaks of the proverbial gnat -- try this passage instead, it's more clear:

They devour widows’ houses and for a show make lengthy prayers.
(Mark 12:40)
​

here, speaking of the same men, He says that they eat up a great thing and from it's nourishment produce something comparatively small, which makes a deceptively large buzzing in the ear.

 

[Andrew1]

zeal, no doubt! but there is also such a thing as "zeal without knowledge"

the charge is made on the basis of such observation that, were someone to point out that Matthew 23:24 in all the most reliable Greek says "strain out a gnat and swallow a camel" where the KJV rendered the verse "strain at a gnat and swallow a camel" -- a sizable proportion of "KJB believers" are more than willing to reject the evidence of the original languages purely on the basis of their loyalty to this particular translation, and insist to the point of dissolving fellowship that the demonstrably wrong rendering is correct.
that a person would remain willfully ignorant of fact, and by so doing set this translation above the truth in their heart, is qualitatively and quantitatively arguable as tantamount to idolatry.

just so we're clear on why such charges are often made.

Gnats are very small and hard to see, you have to strain your eyes to see them, hence "strain at".

 

[posthuman]

Well, so far no one has accused me of idolatry. I wonder if anyone can make the case that I am an idolater for the position I hold. Personally I think I have adequately proved that I or those that believe like me are not.

are you fishing for insults?
i wonder if you'll be happier to go home empty-handed!

 

[KJV1611]

This proves that the KJV is not perfect. In Acts 15, James quoted a prophecy in Amos 9:12. It matches the translation found in the Septuagint. The KJV is different.

Amos 9:12 in Acts 15 (KJV)

That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. Acts 15:17​

Amos 9:12 in the Septuagint

That the remnant of men, and all the Gentiles upon whom my name is called, may earnestly seek [me], saith the Lord who does all these things. ​ Amos 9:12​

Amos 9:12 in the KJV

That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the LORD that doeth this. Amos 9:12​

The only mistake I see is in the newer translations as proven by the incorrect translation of the ESV.

Acts 15:17English Standard Version (ESV)

17 that the remnant[a] of mankind may seek the Lord,
and all the Gentiles who are called by my name,
says the Lord, who makes these things

"The remnant of mankind"? What is that? We know who the Gentiles are, they are non-Jews. So who is "the remnant of mankind"? That would be all of mankind which is WRONG.... All of mankind is not going to seek after the Lord, only the "residue" of men and Gentiles who are called by His name will seek after him. So who is "the residue of men"?

Amos 9:12King James Version (KJV)

12 That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the Lord that doeth this.

The residue of men IS the remnant of Edom... Blood descendants of Abraham and Isaac! So those that will seek after the Lord are the remnant of the Jews and the Gentiles who are called by his name!

 

[posthuman]

Gnats are very small and hard to see, you have to strain your eyes to see them, hence "strain at".

διυλίζοντες

from

diulizó: to strain thoroughly, strain out
Original Word: διϋλίζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: diulizó
Phonetic Spelling: (dee-oo-lid'-zo)
Short Definition: I strain, put through a sieve
Definition: I strain, put through a sieve.


i don't "know" Greek but i know how to look things up.
"to strain at" is παραμόρφωση -- looks like completely different word to me. what do you think? which is more important, to agree with what Matthew wrote or with what Erasmus wrote?

 

[KJV1611]

i think that primarily speaks of the proverbial gnat -- try this passage instead, it's more clear:

They devour widows’ houses and for a show make lengthy prayers.
(Mark 12:40)
​

here, speaking of the same men, He says that they eat up a great thing and from it's nourishment produce something comparatively small, which makes a deceptively large buzzing in the ear.

No that's not what I mean. Verse 24 explains verse 23. The gnat in verse 23 is the small easy things to do... judgement, mercy and faith. Paying tythes, that's a little bit harder to do, this is the big camel. Does that make sense?


Matthew 23:23-24 KJV
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. [24] Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

 

[posthuman]

No that's not what I mean. Verse 24 explains verse 23. The gnat in verse 23 is the small easy things to do... judgement, mercy and faith. Paying tythes, that's a little bit harder to do, this is the big camel. Does that make sense?


Matthew 23:23-24 KJV
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. [24] Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

sure, it makes sense, but this seems like you're diverting the conversation from what the actual original text says.

but if this is what you'd rather talk about than the pretty obvious fact that "strain at" is not in any of the existing Greek manuscripts and is an altogether different word than "strain out" -- i might point out that the Pharisees in no way "strained at" giving tithes -- quite the opposite, they loved to make a great show of doing it:

Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
(Matthew 6:2)

The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
(Luke 18:11-12)
​

we may be able to fiddle around with interpretation until it sounds good to us, but nevertheless, accurate rendition from one language to another isn't accomplished by private interpretation, but by literal translation, and "strain at" literally isn't in the text.

this is what i was talking about in my post yesterday -- some "KJB believers" would rather talk around the obvious mis-translation than honor what the actual scripture says. wouldn't you rather have an accurate translation than have to go through a bunch of hoops to justify a mistake?

 

[tanakh]

King James Bible believers hold that the King James Bible is perfect in the sense of being an entirely accurate transmission of the original scriptures from times past into our present English tongue. We are attentive to the minutia of the words of scripture understanding that changes in even the little words can have big effects on it’s meaning. We therefore have a great zeal for the words of God and are very concerned over any possible corruption that might sneak into the text, as such we earnestly guard against this. This is the heart and attitude of the King James Bible believer. There are some who would say that our reverence for God’s word amounts to idolatry, this is a most unfortunate and uncharitable charge by those who would call themselves the brethren of the faith. For even if King James Bible believers were wrong in their assessment of the King James Bible this charge against them would still be a false accusation and therefore be a violation of the ninth commandment. First of all to believe that something other than God is perfect is not idolatry for that would require that the same charge of idolatry be laid against all who believe in the perfection of angels and of all the substances of heaven. Furthermore to have a zeal and reverence for something that is not God cannot be called idolatry for Jesus in John 2:14-17 was shown to have great zeal for the temple when he drove the money changers out of it, it would be quite blasphemous to imply that Jesus was an idolater. And God commanded the Israelites in his law in Leviticus 19:30 and 26:2 to “reverence” His sanctuary. The charge of idolatry against King James is false and such a charge is bearing false witness against them. If you are against the position that God preserved his word without any errors (inerrant) in the King James Bible then I at the very least recommend for your sake that you not lay this charge in your attempt to discredit our position.

The term' King James Bible believer' makes me a little uncomfortable It poses the question as to whether reading other versions makes one an unbeliever. Are people who read the original Hebrew and Greek Bible less believers than King James readers? I sometimes read the KJV. Am I more of a believer when I do so?