I hear some kind of noise in the background. Kind of grating. Anyone else hear it?
The Ten Commandments are the Covenant, did you know?
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I hear some kind of noise in the background. Kind of grating. Anyone else hear it?
You claim I have never addressed Col 2:16 which I have multiples times and when I post it with Scripture, you make fun it, didn't even bother to read. You claimed I misquote Jesus all the time when I asked for one example, you couldn't provide it.I hear some kind of noise in the background. Kind of grating. Anyone else hear it?
A consistent theme here- one the Scripture tells me to avoid.
It seems you may be missing the peace of God. Perhaps that is because you do not have a good relationship with the truth.
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No, it just shows you make accusations that you can't back up.
My peace is just fine and God will sort out everything because He is the one one who knows everything and nothing we can hide from Him Ecc12:13-14
Isa 48:13 Oh, that you had heeded My commandments!
Then your peace would have been like a river,
And your righteousness like the waves of the sea.
Right, because the covenant they were under required their obedience. Obedience brought blessings and disobedience brought curses. That was the old covenant. The new covenant has no such stipulations. It has already been fulfilled by Christ.
Who was the old covenant between?
Who is the new covenant between?
Who are the parties of each covenant?
So your view the New Covenant believer is rebelling against what God placed in their hearts? His laws? Heb8:10 I can't find this in my Bible.
In the NC it still says sin is breaking the law of God 1John3:4 breaking one of God's commandments we break them all and become sinners or transgressors of the law James2:10-12 and if we continue in that path without true repentance (changing ones mind) its the path that leads to where no more sacrifice for us remains for us Heb10:26-30 no wonder why Jesus taught something different, I know you think His teachings are for "other people" but I believe they are for God's people and He taught breaking or teaching others to break the least of these commandments will lead to sin and Judgement. Mat5:19-30.
I guess God will be sorting all of this out in His time.
I am saying that the word "GOOD NEWS" as it is used in the prophets referred to the Messianic gospel of salvation that was foreseen by John the Baptist, the Messiah Jesus and was passed on to all His disciples to take to the nations. This good news is not ONLY about God but about Jesus message of salvation. Stop trying to make me say something I am not. However YOUR gospel, the one you are always trying to persuade others of is not "REPENT of sin and BELIEVE in Jesus to be saved" It is rather: REPENT of sin, BELIEVE in Jesus and PRACTICE and you will be saved which was the message of the Judaizers.
Rev 14:6Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth—to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people— 7saying with a loud voice, “Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water.”
What do you think the "everlasting gospel" is?
1. When did I deny that God created the world?
1. Our disagreement is not about "correcting God" and you know it. I am questioning what YOU believe.
Your comment about So Paul being a "SELF-PROCLAIMED" servant of God suggests that he was a DECEIVER? Is that what you believe?
2. Correct God? No, I was attempting to correct your own heterodox views which make you either a Judaizer, or an Ebionite.
3. Since you brought it up, what exactly is "Paul's gospel" Which aspects of his gospel do you reject? Maybe knowing that would clear things up
a. YOUR particular "version of righteousness" obviously includes keeping Shabbat as essential to obtaining righteousness before God even though this is INCONSISTENT with your other statement that, "keeping the law cannot save us."
b. Where will NOT keeping Shabbat eventually lead us? Will it lead us to our being condemned in the final judgment as a lawless person? If so then you should say so plainly.
c. Would you not call KEEPING SHABBAT a"work of the Law" After all, that command was part of the Mosaic LAW and a "work" simply means something we do. Therefore, by definition, Shabbat keeping is a "work of the Law"
"Reconciliation" is from the Greek word katallagé (Gr. καταλλαγή) which refers to a restoration to favor. In the N. T., it is used for the restoration of the favor of God to sinners who REPENT of their sins and put their FAITH in the expiatory death of Jesus. Unless I am misreading you, you SEEM to be saying that the "path to reconciliation with Christ" includes keeping Shabbat.
Next, you refer us to Mark 7:7-13, in which Jesus debated with the Pharisees about their practice of ceremonially washing ones hands before eating. They did not do this, not for hygiene, since they knew nothing about micro-organisms being the vector of transmitting diseases. To them it was simply a symbolic ritual:
1 Then the Pharisees and some of the scribes who had come from Jerusalem gathered around Jesus, 2 and they saw some of His disciples eating with hands that were defiled—that is, unwashed. 3 Now in holding to the tradition of the elders, the Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat until they wash their hands ceremonially. 4And on returning from the market, they do not eat unless they wash. And there are many other traditions for them to observe, including the washing of cups, pitchers, kettles, and couches for dining. 5 So the Pharisees and scribes questioned Jesus: “Why do Your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders? Instead, they eat with defiled hands.”
(Mark 7:1-5)
Rather than quote the whole context of this conversation you offer a loose paraphase in a way that it SEEMS to agree with your ideas but which has NOTHING TO DO with the ACTUAL WORDS SPOKEN BY JESUS. You go as far as to summarize the passage as:
"Trust God and seek His righteousness including God's Sabbath."
It looks like YOU, like the Pharisees, do not hesitate to import your own "traditions" and beliefs INTO into the text and then quoting them as if Jesus Himself had spoken them. However, when we take the time to read these verses in context it becomes obvious that Jesus did not really say what you quote Him as saying. In fact, Jesus was showing the Pharisees how they were trying to finding a pretext not to support and honor their parents.
Thus Jesus said: 8 You have disregarded the commandment of God to keep the tradition of men.” 9 He went on to say, “You neatly set aside the command of God to maintain your own tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’ and ‘Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.’ 11 BUT YOU SAY that if a man says to his father or mother, ‘Whatever you would have received from me is Corban’ (that is, a gift devoted to God), 12 he is no longer permitted to do anything for his father or mother.
13Thus you nullify the word of God by the tradition you have handed down. And you do so in many such matters.
(Mark 7:8-12)
Though you cite the passage in Mark to prove your point the passage does not even address keeping Shabbat. This does not restrain you from using the bare words to MAKE it APPEAR to mean that Mark agrees with you. Like the Pharisees, you have no problem misinterpreting the words of the text as long as you can make it APPEAR to support some opinion you hold.
OK Here is your chance again: Please explain v.16 and why it does not mean what it says and also what the scripture means by describing the OT practices as BUT A SHADOW OF THINGS TO COME.
Now listen, these verses are in context so v. 16 alone with no context is v.16 alone with no context. BUT the Bible never just drops something in with the hope we can make something of it.
You may have explained v.16 all by itself according to SDA doctrine, but if you have any respect for the NT how do you deal with, excuse away or ignore or whatever SDA tells you to do the following. You are not dealing with a bunch of ignorant bumpkins from the 18th C who cannot even read so twisting and writhing and mumbling won't cut it here.
11In Him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of your sinful nature, with the circumcision performed by Christb and not by human hands. 12And having been buried with Him in baptism, you were raised with Him through your faith in the power of God, who raised Him from the dead.
13When you were dead in your trespasses and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our trespasses, 14having canceled the debt ascribed to us in the decrees that stood against us. He took it away, nailing it to the cross! 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.
16Therefore let no one judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a feast, a New Moon, or a Sabbath. 17These are a shadow of the things to come, but the body that casts it belongs to Christ.c 18Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you with speculation about what he has seen. Such a person is puffed up without basis by his unspiritual mind. 19He has lost connection to the head, from whom the whole body, supported and knit together by its joints and ligaments, grows as God causes it to grow.
20If you have died with Christ to the spiritual forces of the world, why, as though you still belonged to the world, do you submit to its regulations: 21“Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!”? 22These will all perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. 23Such restrictions indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-prescribed worship, their false humility, and their harsh treatment of the body; but they are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.
It was explained in detail here. The Bible explains what the shadow laws are and why they were shadow laws.
There are several different Sabbaths in the Bible that uses the same word, but has very different meanings.
There is the seventh day Sabbath- instituted at Creation Exo20:11 Gen2:1-3, came before sin, reaffirmed in the Ten Commandments Exo20:8-11, written by God personally Exo31:18, placed inside God’s ark Exo40:20 God called it “the holy day of the Lord” Isa58:13
There are the annual sabbath(s) feast days that are always tied to animal sacrifices, they don’t always fall on the seventh day can be on any day and came after the fall and were handwritten by Moses, placed besides the ark of God’s covenant came after sin.
- 1st day of Unleavened Bread
- 7th day of Unleavened Bread
- Pentecost
- Trumpets
- Day of Atonement
- 1st day of Tabernacles
- 8th day of Tabernacles
So I think we are being quick to assume by seeing the word Sabbath that has different meanings and assuming it means the Holy Day of the Lord that comes with God's blessing and sanctification , without looking at the context that Paul carefully gave and we should let the Bible interpret itself.
Col 2:14 KJV Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to His cross.
Col 2:14 NASB having canceled the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
Greek word for handwriting: χειρόγραφον (cheirographon)
Literally: “something written by hand
Ordinances
τοῖς δόγμασιν (tois dogmasin)
Meaning: “decrees,” “regulations,” “legal demands”
It is a legal document that condemns sinners why Paul used the word “against us” and “contrary to us”. The law does not condemn the righteous, it condemns the sinners.
Just from this context that Paul gave we can eliminate the Ten Commandments, but lets let Scripture interpret Scripture.
Who wrote the handwritten ordinances?
2 Chron 33:8 and I will not again remove the foot of Israel from the land which I have appointed for your fathers—only if they are careful to do all that I have commanded them, according to the whole law and the statutes and the ordinances by the hand of Moses.
What law is the law that was contrary and against?
Deut 31:24-26 So it was, when Moses had completed writing the words of this law in a book, when they were finished, 25 that Moses commanded the Levites, who bore the ark of the covenant of the Lord, saying: 26 “Take this Book of the Law, and put it beside the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there as a witness against you;
It appears from the text that this is not referring to the Sabbath in the Ten Commandments that was written by God Himself by His finger Exo31:18 placed inside the ark of the covenant, not besides like the annual sabbath(s) connected to animal sacrifices.
This is the law that was taken away at the Cross.
Col 2:16 let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
This is the exact language referring to the annual sabbath(s) that were handwritten by Moses, placed besides the ark that refer to annual feasts days, sacrifices and offerings that some were also called sabbath(s)
Eze 45:17 and it shall be the prince's part to give burnt offerings, and meat offerings, and drink offerings, in the feasts, and in the new moons, and in the sabbaths, in all solemnities of the house of Israel: he shall prepare the sin offering, and the meat offering, and the burnt offering, and the peace offerings, to make reconciliation for the house of Israel.
What did Jesus say He would come to put an end to? (compared to magnifying another law- by placing it in our hearts Isa42:21 Heb8:10)
Dan 9:27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
Col 2:17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ
What are the shadows laws? Lets let the Scriptures define what they are
Heb 10:1 For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect. 2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once []purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins. 3 But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.
5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said:
“Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
But a body You have prepared for Me.
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin
You had no pleasure.
7 Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come—
In the volume of the book it is written of Me—
To do Your will, O God.’ ”
8 Previously saying, “Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them” (which are offered according to the law), 9 then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will, []O God.” He takes away the first that He may establish the second. 10 By that will we have been []sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all
This fits the context of this passage perfectly and makes the Bible harmonize because we see Sabbath-keeping (every Sabbath) 30+ years after the Cross just as Jesus Himself indicated Isa 56:6-7 Acts 13:42, Acts 13:44 Acts 15:21 Acts 18:4 and up to His Second Coming Mat24:20-30 and forever Isa66:22-23
Like I thought. You have no explanation as to why the SDA refuses to employ actual scripture and instead takes the wizard of oz road to Ellen White behind the curtain.
Colossians 2 was and still is, addressing certain heresies in the CHRISTIAN church. The church was allowing false teaching to creep in. It is simple and plain to understand but in order to continue with the SDA teaching that not a word in the Bible exists that a good SDA apologetist cannot twist or give a different meaning to in order to scuttle the truth, you give an word document that attempts to explain OT law and sacrifice.
You either believe that Jesus is sufficient and that He was sent by God to be the final sacrifice or you don't in which case there are not enough words to explain away the truth, like you have done here.
As you are so fond of saying and I quote your exact words:
Like the Pharisees, you have no problem misinterpreting the words of the text as long as you can make it APPEAR to support some opinion you hold.
And of course the time tested and SDA approved
Still refusing to add the context I see, I will let you go on your way.
Why do you say Heb. 3:7-4:11 says the opposite of "do not follow in the same path of disobedience of those who fell because they continued to believe they could earn salvation by obeying the Sabbath and other OC laws)"?
What do you think it says?
No, and that's ridiculous. The problem is you don't fundamentally understand covenants and particularly the old and new covenants. I can show this to you rather easily if you will answer my questions:
Who are the parties who are covenanting in the old covenant?
Who are the parties covenanting in the new covenant?
What did Jesus teach
Mark 1:15 and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel.”
We are not saved in our sins Heb10:26-30 - Jesus came to save us from sins Mat1:21 If we believe in the good news of His salvation why do you think Jesus is going to leave us in sin and a master of another 1John3:6 instead of serving Him Isa56:6 , if our heart has not changed and we don't want to lay our sins at His feet and ask for His help in overcoming its saying to Jesus we love our sins more than we love Him to forsake them Pro28:13 John3:19-21 and sin of course is breaking the law of God 1John3:4 His version James2:10-12
Jesus said everyone who joins themselves to the LORD to serve Him, love His name, be His servant, keep His Sabbath invited for everyone so in essence you are claiming the LORD is trying to make someone a "Judaizer" for obeying Him and wanting to serve Him. The LORD said He is LORD of the Sabbath day made for mankind, not "Judaizers- you are using it in derogatory way, so what are you really saying and who are you really saying it to.
Again this is the LORD speaking
Isa 56:1 Thus says the Lord:
“Keep justice, and do righteousness,
For My salvation is about to come,
And My righteousness to be revealed.
2 Blessed is the man who does this,
And the son of man who lays hold on it;
Who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And keeps his hand from doing any evil.”
So this is God speaking and He said keeping the Sabbath is doing justice and righteousness which is the foundation of His throne. You keep going back to Paul to try to correct God.
Paul never taught to do unrighteousness and evil in the sight of God. Our righteousness comes by faith and this is what that looks like according to the Bible;
Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance.
The faith part is what saved, the action part proves our faith is genuine. Anyone can say Lord Lord- God said he is looking for doers of His will and word. James1:22-26 Mat7:21-23
Disobedience no matter how much we try to dress it up is still rebellion, unbelief and sin all used interchangeably Heb3:7-19
1 John3:7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.
This is what God said, not me.
The Israelites were promised a land full of milk and honey on the condition they keep God's commandments which means loving Him with our whole mind, heart and soul. Deut 6:1-5
What happened? Because many did not enter..
Heb 4:13 Yet the house of Israel rebelled against Me in the wilderness; they did not walk in My statutes; they despised My judgments, ‘which, if a man does, he shall live by them’; and they greatly defiled My Sabbaths. Then I said I would pour out My fury on them in the wilderness, to consume them.
They rebelled against God's commandments and profaned God's Sabbath.
And what did that cost them
Eze 20:15 So I also raised My hand in an oath to them in the wilderness, that I would not bring them into the land which I had given them, ‘flowing with milk and honey,’ the glory of all lands, 16 because they despised My judgments and did not walk in My statutes, but profaned My Sabbaths; for their heart went after their idols.
And God, not me, but God said because the broke the commandments and profaned God's Sabbath they lost their inheritance and God related breaking the Sabbaths with another commandment idol worship- why breaking one we break them all they are all interconnected James2:10-12- because its taking what the God of Creation said Exo20:11 Exo20:8-11 and replacing it with another voice.
We are told quite plainly not to follow in the same example of disobedience to enter our rest
Heb 4:11 Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience.
I don't know how much plainer the Scriptures can be.
God told us not to work on the Sabbath and spend the day honoring Him Isa58:13 so keeping the Sabbath is resting in God- doing work on the Sabbath which God said not to is "works of the law" depending on our own version of what is right and wrong instead of resting in God's Exo32:16 Psa119:172 Isa56:1-2
Why do you think faith leads one to be in rebellion against God and His commandments?
Lets quote more context....
Yes, it was about the Jews who saying to keep the traditions of the elders over the commandments of God. There is no such commandment to wash our hands before eating. Even though we should do that Jesus condemned them because they were keeping their man-made traditions over the commandments of God quoting right from the Ten Commandments and in doing this when we keep man-made traditions over God's commandments it makes the Word of God of no effect! It makes ones heart far from Him and our worship to Him in vain.
Mark 7:1 Then the Pharisees and some of the scribes came together to Him, having come from Jerusalem. 2 Now when they saw some of His disciples eat bread with defiled, that is, with unwashed hands, they found fault. 3 For the Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they wash their hands in a special way, holding the tradition of the elders. 4 When they come from the marketplace, they do not eat unless they wash. And there are many other things which they have received and hold, like the washing of cups, pitchers, copper vessels, and couches.
5 Then the Pharisees and scribes asked Him, “Why do Your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashed hands?”
6 He answered and said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
7 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men—the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do.”
9 He said to them, “All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; found in the Ten Commandments Exo20:12 and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 11 But you say, ‘If a man says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corban”—’ (that is, a gift to God), 12 then you no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother, 13 making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do.”
Wow. So tell me, where is the commandment to keep the first day holy? God commanded, just like He did to honor thy mother and father to keep the seventh day Sabbath holy Exo20:8-11 this is a commandment of God written personally by God spoken by God Exo31;18 Exo20:1 James2:11 John12:48
God claimed keeping the Sabbath is doing righteousness Isa56:1-2. The issue is not that God was clear- the issue is having faith to live by His every word Mat4:4
So show me where the 4th commandment is not one of God's commandments. I would be careful what you are claiming here because I did not write the Ten Commandments- God did Exo31:18 Deut4:13 so this accusation would not be against me, but the Author and LORD of the Sabbath.
Its the principle- God did not quote one commandments as worshipping Him in vain- its all of them- God wrote Ten Commandments, He said to Remember on one of them you are teaching the opposite of what God said. I think you really need to prayerfully consider which side you're on here
Well you just dismissed what God said His new covenant was, so if one doesn't believe His words, not much more I can do.