The Tribulation and the Church, WHEN?
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Blessings to you too Ahwatukee,
One has to keep in mind that there will be tribulation throughout the world as the events in Revelation 8 unfold.
The perplexity nations experience with the seas and waves roaring, along with other signs in the heavens (Luke 21:25), correlate with the events in Revelation 8.
And as we can see from Luke 21:12 when these events are taking place, the Lord's people will experience great tribulation.
This is not God's wrath, which is in Revelation 16 on the beast's worshippers.
The beast hasn't even risen from the bottomless pit/the sea at this point.
It is when the events in Revelation 8 are at their worst when the bottomless pit is opened, allowing the beast to rise from it, which is also referred to as the sea.
Luke 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luke 21:12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
One has to keep in mind that there will be tribulation throughout the world as the events in Revelation 8 unfold.
The perplexity nations experience with the seas and waves roaring, along with other signs in the heavens (Luke 21:25), correlate with the events in Revelation 8.
And as we can see from Luke 21:12 when these events are taking place, the Lord's people will experience great tribulation.
This is not God's wrath, which is in Revelation 16 on the beast's worshippers.
The beast hasn't even risen from the bottomless pit/the sea at this point.
It is when the events in Revelation 8 are at their worst when the bottomless pit is opened, allowing the beast to rise from it, which is also referred to as the sea.
Luke 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luke 21:12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
I don't twist scriptures. That is just a knee-jerk reaction in response from you. I always provide the scripture to back up my teachings.
Tell me, do you see a difference between "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him" vs. "the day of the Lord?"
Did you notice Paul's change in reference to both? Obviously not.
So, you would believe and teach that the Lord puts His bride through His wrath first and then comes to get her afterwards, which would put the living church through the same punishment as the wicked. Is that what you're saying? Is it the nature of God to punish the righteous with the wicked?
As I stated before, after Paul gave a detailed outline of the resurrection of the dead and the living being changed and caught up in 1 Thess.4:13-18, he then said to "Comfort each other with those words." In writing to Titus, Paul refers to the living believers being changed and caught up as "The Blessed Hope." That said, if the church was to first go through the entire wrath of God, experiencing all of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, then believers would have no reason to comfort each other, nor would it be a blessed hope. For according to you, believers would have to go through the most horrific time in the history of the world before the Lord fulfills His promise to come and get us. No thank you!
I believe in the Lord's promise to keep us out of the hour of God's wrath which He said is going to come upon the world to test those dwell upon the face of the whole earth .
And for those who think that God is going to protect the church during the time of His wrath, they believe this without taking into consideration severity and magnitude of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.
In addition, Revelation 19:6-8 has the bride/church as being heaven at the wedding of the Lamb during the time of God's wrath on earth, where we will be receiving our fine linen, white and clean. Then in verse 14 the bride is said to be following the Lord out of heaven riding on white horses. So, if you want to continue to believe that the Lord would punish his church right along with the wicked, you can do that. But as for me, I know that the Lord is going to keep His promise and remove the church prior to the first seal being opened.
In support that the resurrected and caught up church will be coming from heaven with the Lord, we have Rev.17:14 stating the following:
"They (the beast and ten kings) will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”
Tell me, do you see a difference between "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him" vs. "the day of the Lord?"
Did you notice Paul's change in reference to both? Obviously not.
So, you would believe and teach that the Lord puts His bride through His wrath first and then comes to get her afterwards, which would put the living church through the same punishment as the wicked. Is that what you're saying? Is it the nature of God to punish the righteous with the wicked?
As I stated before, after Paul gave a detailed outline of the resurrection of the dead and the living being changed and caught up in 1 Thess.4:13-18, he then said to "Comfort each other with those words." In writing to Titus, Paul refers to the living believers being changed and caught up as "The Blessed Hope." That said, if the church was to first go through the entire wrath of God, experiencing all of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, then believers would have no reason to comfort each other, nor would it be a blessed hope. For according to you, believers would have to go through the most horrific time in the history of the world before the Lord fulfills His promise to come and get us. No thank you!
I believe in the Lord's promise to keep us out of the hour of God's wrath which He said is going to come upon the world to test those dwell upon the face of the whole earth .
And for those who think that God is going to protect the church during the time of His wrath, they believe this without taking into consideration severity and magnitude of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.
In addition, Revelation 19:6-8 has the bride/church as being heaven at the wedding of the Lamb during the time of God's wrath on earth, where we will be receiving our fine linen, white and clean. Then in verse 14 the bride is said to be following the Lord out of heaven riding on white horses. So, if you want to continue to believe that the Lord would punish his church right along with the wicked, you can do that. But as for me, I know that the Lord is going to keep His promise and remove the church prior to the first seal being opened.
In support that the resurrected and caught up church will be coming from heaven with the Lord, we have Rev.17:14 stating the following:
"They (the beast and ten kings) will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”
Hello Louis,
Future signs
"Nation will rise up against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 11There will be both great earthquakes, and famines and pestilences in different places. There will also be fearful sights and great signs from heaven. - Luke 21:10-11
"But before all these things (before the above takes place in the future), they will lay their hands upon you, and will persecute you, delivering you to the synagogues and prisons, bringing you before kings and governors on account of My name.
The above was fulfilled in part by the apostles and Paul. There's not conflict here. Jesus was just giving them the order of events in their generation and what will follow in the future.
The information above is also mentioned in the Olivet discourse in Matt.24. Regarding this, there is no problem. For before those signs take place in the future, the Pharisees, kings and governors did exactly what was predicted above.
The reference to "the seas and waves roaring" I believe is referring to the 2nd trumpet, where John sees something like a huge mountain on fire hitting one of the oceans. The results being that a third of the creatures in the sea die and a third of the ships are destroyed. This will be caused by the giant Tsunami's that will be produced from what I believe will be an asteroid.
But most in importantly, we cannot currently be experiencing any of the seals, trumpets or bowl judgments and that because the antichrist has not yet been revealed who is represented by the 1st seal rider on the white horse. Since the seals, trumpets and bowls take place in chronological order, then none of the other seals, trumpets and bowls are not and could have taken place.
These plagues of wrath are not going to be passive events that appear in the world today with everything returning back to normal, but will have the attention of the entire world, which is what they are meant to do. By the time that the 7th bowl has been poured out, the majority of the population of the earth will have been decimated and all human government will have been dismantled. This is supported by the fact that Jesus said, "that if those days had not been shortened, no one on the earth would be left alive. This is why I continue to claim that people are not understanding the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath. It will be like nothing has ever seen and it won't be able to be ignored.
Yes, but the Abyss as the being the sea is not what is being referred to here. Consider the following:
"And the fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star having fallen out of heaven to the earth, and the key of the pit of the abyss was given to him. And he opened the pit of the abyss, and smoke went up out of the pit, like the smoke of a great furnace, and the sun and the air were darkened by the smoke of the pit."
In the scripture above, the star/angel has the key to the Abyss and smoke comes up out of it like a great furnace. This would be indicative of the shaft of the Abyss being located on the land. Normally you wouldn't have smoke coming up out of the Abyss from under water.
Future signs
"Nation will rise up against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 11There will be both great earthquakes, and famines and pestilences in different places. There will also be fearful sights and great signs from heaven. - Luke 21:10-11
"But before all these things (before the above takes place in the future), they will lay their hands upon you, and will persecute you, delivering you to the synagogues and prisons, bringing you before kings and governors on account of My name.
The above was fulfilled in part by the apostles and Paul. There's not conflict here. Jesus was just giving them the order of events in their generation and what will follow in the future.
The information above is also mentioned in the Olivet discourse in Matt.24. Regarding this, there is no problem. For before those signs take place in the future, the Pharisees, kings and governors did exactly what was predicted above.
The reference to "the seas and waves roaring" I believe is referring to the 2nd trumpet, where John sees something like a huge mountain on fire hitting one of the oceans. The results being that a third of the creatures in the sea die and a third of the ships are destroyed. This will be caused by the giant Tsunami's that will be produced from what I believe will be an asteroid.
But most in importantly, we cannot currently be experiencing any of the seals, trumpets or bowl judgments and that because the antichrist has not yet been revealed who is represented by the 1st seal rider on the white horse. Since the seals, trumpets and bowls take place in chronological order, then none of the other seals, trumpets and bowls are not and could have taken place.
These plagues of wrath are not going to be passive events that appear in the world today with everything returning back to normal, but will have the attention of the entire world, which is what they are meant to do. By the time that the 7th bowl has been poured out, the majority of the population of the earth will have been decimated and all human government will have been dismantled. This is supported by the fact that Jesus said, "that if those days had not been shortened, no one on the earth would be left alive. This is why I continue to claim that people are not understanding the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath. It will be like nothing has ever seen and it won't be able to be ignored.
Yes, but the Abyss as the being the sea is not what is being referred to here. Consider the following:
"And the fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star having fallen out of heaven to the earth, and the key of the pit of the abyss was given to him. And he opened the pit of the abyss, and smoke went up out of the pit, like the smoke of a great furnace, and the sun and the air were darkened by the smoke of the pit."
In the scripture above, the star/angel has the key to the Abyss and smoke comes up out of it like a great furnace. This would be indicative of the shaft of the Abyss being located on the land. Normally you wouldn't have smoke coming up out of the Abyss from under water.
I don't know how much simpler I can explain this.
The sun, moon and stars combined are symbolic representing Israel. This is made clear by the fact that Joseph said that in his dream the sun, moon and eleven stars came and bowed down before him. Then when he told it to his father Jacob, he said, "what is this dream that you have had, will I (sun) your mother (moon) and your brothers (stars) come and bow down to you.
Jacob, his wives and his sons combined make up the nation Israel.
Therefore, the woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and wearing a crown of twelve stars, is figuratively representing Israel.
God used the same symbols from Joseph's dream to identified the woman as being Israel in Rev.12:6, 14.
I hope that this is helpful.
The sun, moon and stars combined are symbolic representing Israel. This is made clear by the fact that Joseph said that in his dream the sun, moon and eleven stars came and bowed down before him. Then when he told it to his father Jacob, he said, "what is this dream that you have had, will I (sun) your mother (moon) and your brothers (stars) come and bow down to you.
Jacob, his wives and his sons combined make up the nation Israel.
Therefore, the woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and wearing a crown of twelve stars, is figuratively representing Israel.
God used the same symbols from Joseph's dream to identified the woman as being Israel in Rev.12:6, 14.
I hope that this is helpful.
Hello and good morning Ahwatukee,
Can you tell me when many came claiming to be Christ in Luke 21:8, if supposedly Luke 21:9-12 came immediately afterwards, which you believe occurred two thousand years ago?
The Lord gives us many correlating events throughout the bible. We know that the 10 horned beast in Daniel 7 correlates with the 10 horned beast in Revelation 13. By putting these data together we have a clearer understanding of the situation.
Likewise, when the angel in Revelation 17:8 informs us that the beast shall rise from the bottomless pit which is in Revelation 9:2, we then recognize that the bottomless pit is another description for the sea from which the beast shall rise from in Rev 13.
These are not the only two books relating to the end times.
Nearly every book in the bible has data on the end times, of which Luke 21, Mark 13, and Matthew 24 are very clear in stating.
As such, when Luke 21:25-26 describes men's hearts failing them due to seeing chaos running rampant while earth's environment deteriorates, I then realize this event to correlate with that in Revelation 8.
As such, I then recognize all the data in Luke 21 to regard the end times, and not data spread across two millennia.
There will be groups of individuals calling for an end to the way industry is now destroying the earth, and all the injustices associated with it, who will be brought in before magistrates, so that they may be silenced.
This is how I see Luke 21:9-12.
Can you tell me when many came claiming to be Christ in Luke 21:8, if supposedly Luke 21:9-12 came immediately afterwards, which you believe occurred two thousand years ago?
The Lord gives us many correlating events throughout the bible. We know that the 10 horned beast in Daniel 7 correlates with the 10 horned beast in Revelation 13. By putting these data together we have a clearer understanding of the situation.
Likewise, when the angel in Revelation 17:8 informs us that the beast shall rise from the bottomless pit which is in Revelation 9:2, we then recognize that the bottomless pit is another description for the sea from which the beast shall rise from in Rev 13.
These are not the only two books relating to the end times.
Nearly every book in the bible has data on the end times, of which Luke 21, Mark 13, and Matthew 24 are very clear in stating.
As such, when Luke 21:25-26 describes men's hearts failing them due to seeing chaos running rampant while earth's environment deteriorates, I then realize this event to correlate with that in Revelation 8.
As such, I then recognize all the data in Luke 21 to regard the end times, and not data spread across two millennia.
There will be groups of individuals calling for an end to the way industry is now destroying the earth, and all the injustices associated with it, who will be brought in before magistrates, so that they may be silenced.
This is how I see Luke 21:9-12.
Josef (meaning God adds) like many different old testament saints were used as a type of Christ. That parable (Rev12)had nothing to do with his corrupted flesh and blood it has long returned to dust . . It pointed ahead to the fulfillment in Revelation 21 . No more sun and moon, the two temporal corruption time keepers placed in the heavens on day four.
Revelation 12 King James Version (KJV) And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. ..... . . . . . (the mother of us all Galaitian4)
The problem with trying to make it about flesh and blood is defining what makes up the word Israel. What does the word mean seeing all Israel is not Israel as born again? or a Jew is not one outwardly according to the flesh but one inwardly as born again .Isreal reflects the new name he previously called Jacob deciever. God uses words with meaning attached.
The woman in Revelation 12 is signified as the bride of Christ as His wife. She is clothed with the righteous of God . The Sun and moon under her feet . Its the end of time .
The gospel has nothing to do with the flesh of nations but does with a new creature. Walk by faith the unseen eternal and you will not have to make it about the flesh the temporal
evelation 12 King James Version (KJV) And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.25
Revelation 12 King James Version (KJV) And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. ..... . . . . . (the mother of us all Galaitian4)
The problem with trying to make it about flesh and blood is defining what makes up the word Israel. What does the word mean seeing all Israel is not Israel as born again? or a Jew is not one outwardly according to the flesh but one inwardly as born again .Isreal reflects the new name he previously called Jacob deciever. God uses words with meaning attached.
The woman in Revelation 12 is signified as the bride of Christ as His wife. She is clothed with the righteous of God . The Sun and moon under her feet . Its the end of time .
The gospel has nothing to do with the flesh of nations but does with a new creature. Walk by faith the unseen eternal and you will not have to make it about the flesh the temporal
evelation 12 King James Version (KJV) And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.25
There is no preparation.
They die in the gt.
It says "every human on the planet takes the mark"
Every human.
The believers left behind "overcome"....by the blood of the lamb and the word of their testimony...
And get this...."they loved not their lives unto death"
They die.
They all die or take the mark
The church is OVER. DONE. FINISHED
That is WHY angels preach the gospel mid trib.(no church exists on earth)
The angels preach AFTER the jews are gathered in rev 14
The 144k are first harvested jews. They are The first JEWS harvested AFTER the gentile bride. (That is WHY they are called firstfruits)
Firstfruits=harvest.
Those taken(raptured) in rev 14 are main harvested jews. (After firstfruits)
Nobody is touching this dynamic
Nobody
You heard it here first
They die in the gt.
It says "every human on the planet takes the mark"
Every human.
The believers left behind "overcome"....by the blood of the lamb and the word of their testimony...
And get this...."they loved not their lives unto death"
They die.
They all die or take the mark
The church is OVER. DONE. FINISHED
That is WHY angels preach the gospel mid trib.(no church exists on earth)
The angels preach AFTER the jews are gathered in rev 14
The 144k are first harvested jews. They are The first JEWS harvested AFTER the gentile bride. (That is WHY they are called firstfruits)
Firstfruits=harvest.
Those taken(raptured) in rev 14 are main harvested jews. (After firstfruits)
Nobody is touching this dynamic
Nobody
You heard it here first
Eze 9:4 (KJV) And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.
Do you think Ezekiel 9:4 is talking about the 144,000?
Do you think Ezekiel 9:4 is talking about the 144,000?
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