The Trinity Discussion

[jaybird88]

Here's a couple of more creeds in the NT jaybird. What about these and did you read them? So they serve as a crucial guide for the church in affirming doctrinal truth, refuting error, and encouraging doctrinal instruction among the faithful. Did you know that 1 Corinthians 15:3,4 is a creed as well as 1 Timothy 2:5,6. Having said that I am now going to define the Trinity.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

why was the Shema so important to men like Jesus and the 12? the two greatest commandments were built on the foundation of the Shema. what did the Shema mean to those people back then?

 

[valiant]

The Apostles creed was what the Apostles taught, you can add the trinity concept if you want but the trinity concept itself does not exist in the Apostle Creed.

The Apostles Creed came long AFTER the Apostles. It was not really the creed of the Apostles. You simply show your ignorance of church history. It arose in 3rd century AD at the earliest. And it was a brief statement of belief. Irenaeus and Ignatius wrote long before it and they both believed that Jesus was God. The triune God is taught in the NT.

 

[valiant]

why was the Shema so important to men like Jesus and the 12? the two greatest commandments were built on the foundation of the Shema. what did the Shema mean to those people back then?

'The LORD our GOD is ONE LORD' indicated to the NT church that Father and Son were one LORD. Thus the statement that 'Jesus is Lord' indicated His divine origin. (Rom 10.9; Phil 2.5-11). That was why He was called the LORD Jesus Christ.

 

[valiant]

i agree the Shema is a creed, but unlike most all the other creeds found by the new roman church, the Shema is actually word for word with the bible.

Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.

the Shema was a big deal in the days of Jesus and the 12, Jews proclaimed this many times a day. in my forty years i dont remember this ever being proclaimed in church. i wonder why?

Prove it was a big deal. It never appears in Acts. It was a summing up of the first part of the Law..

I know of many churches which pronounce it weekly. You should try a better church.

 

[jaybird88]

'The LORD our GOD is ONE LORD' indicated to the NT church that Father and Son were one LORD. Thus the statement that 'Jesus is Lord' indicated His divine origin. (Rom 10.9; Phil 2.5-11). That was why He was called the LORD Jesus Christ.

the scribe discussing this with Jesus said "He" was one, not "they" are one. Jesus said the scribe answered wisely.

 

[valiant]

Well can you tell me the true meaning of it? I am not being offensive or sarcastic. I really want to know want you believe it to be so we can have a basis for discussion. And I mean an uplifting discussion from the spirit within, for both of us, and not one that comes from the flesh that causes us to be not Christ-like.

I hope you are not already thinking that ‘everyone knows the true meaning, and what’s wrong with this person.’ This type of thinking had cause so many problems in those wanting to walk in the light, or remain there. It's like saying do you believe that 9/11 was an inside job? You might say to that question, 'of course everyone does'

Well let me very briefly synoptise (I don’t know if that is really a word), the Philippians passage.

Context: Paul (with Timothy) is saying to believers that they should have an attitude like Jesus Christ, right. They were speaking of being like minded with Christ, having the same one love, being in the same one spirit, and the same one purpose. we should look at other peoples’ interest ahead of our own... Phil 2:1-4. One of the reasons I end with In Christ, always, is to let me know that is where I want to be..in all that Paul says here and more...

Now in verse 4 we have the Greek word morphe (with an ending accent on the ‘e’) that has caused many to have different opinions of what this entire section means.

Bluntly without going into detail it means outer appearance or form and never ‘inner’ form or nature.

You err already. It does not mean outward form. It means essential form, inward nature,


W

e just cannot take for face value the modern English or other language translations without look at the Greek or even Latin in this case. People do make mistakes…another subject of discussion

you have made one mistake already. Try harder.,

So Paul was saying that a believer can have to the mannerisms, demeanor, voice and works as Christ.

Paul was merely saying that men could imitate Christ's humility.

You see also we can never emulate his inner nature if it was exactly God’s inner nature.

No. they were not to imitate His nature or form, they were to imitate His humility.

That would be impossible. Verse 7 actually does translate the word for outer form correctly (appearance) as confirmation of was I just said.

But it was not that He had taken on the outward form of a servant which would be just show. It was that He had taken the very nature of a servant.,

Now we see that Paul says that Christ yields his entire human spirit and will to ‘nothing’ as if he was a doormat.

Because He had taken, not the outward form, but the nature of a servant,

Now for another key area: Because Jesus the Christ was empowered by God (since his anointing – full spirit of God with him) and God’s spirit was speaking through him during his mission from the start of it, he did not consider himself beneath his Father and considering it as a sin/crime/robbery.

It would only be so if He was Himself equal with the Father. Otherwise His was pure robbery,

I notice you omit two things, firstly that Jesus was given the Name above every Name, the Name of Yahweh. And secondly that He was to be proclaimed Yahweh (Lord is the Greek equivalent in the LXX). In other words having humbled Himself He was to be restored to His rightful position,

 

[bluto]

the scribe discussing this with Jesus said "He" was one, not "they" are one. Jesus said the scribe answered wisely.

I know not only what it says but what it is teaching. The Shema is teaching more than the fact of declaring that the unity of God is against polytheism. It also asserts that the Lord God of Israel is ABSOLUTELY GOD, as in there are no others. He alone is Jehovah/Yahweh the absolute, uncaused God. This does not mean or preclude God from becoming a man in the person of Jesus Christ.

Why else would Jesus Christ be identified as God throughout the Bible? Now, tell me what Revealtion 1:8 is saying or teaching? Or why did Thomas declare Jesus Christ to be God at John 20:28 or why the Apostle Peter identified Jesus Christ as God at 2 Peter 1:1? Please explain this for me?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[jaybird88]

I know not only what it says but what it is teaching. The Shema is teaching more than the fact of declaring that the unity of God is against polytheism. It also asserts that the Lord God of Israel is ABSOLUTELY GOD, as in there are no others. He alone is Jehovah/Yahweh the absolute, uncaused God. This does not mean or preclude God from becoming a man in the person of Jesus Christ.

Why else would Jesus Christ be identified as God throughout the Bible? Now, tell me what Revealtion 1:8 is saying or teaching? Or why did Thomas declare Jesus Christ to be God at John 20:28 or why the Apostle Peter identified Jesus Christ as God at 2 Peter 1:1? Please explain this for me?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

what does polytheism and other gods have to do with the Shema? it makes no mention of other gods. if it was a proclamation of monotheism it should say we worship one G-D and not many gods. but thats not what it says. it proclaims the Most High is one, one opposed to what?

 

[Dagallen]

No, the New testament is what apostles taught. The apostle's creed is the summarization of the church, It was not written by apostles.

This was written by apostles, though:

"...Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men."
(Phil 2:5-6)

"For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form." (Col 2:9)

Let see, " the NT was written by Greeks, many years after the death of Christ and the Apostles, they never knew Christ nor the Apostles first hand, they never knew any eye witness to any account, concerning Christ nor the Apostles, they had very little writings from the time of Christ or what he actually spoke but you are saying, everything these Greek wrote, Christ and the Apostles taught, interesting. The Apostles creed came from the church but not from the Apostles, interesting. If the church wrote the Apostles creed, according to you, the church must have not taught the whole truth because the church at that time, did not teach of any trinity concept, again, there is no trinity concept in the Apostle Creed, yes I could agree that the Apostle Creed is a summary of the belief within the church, that has no trinity concept in it. If the trinity concept was true and so important, then why is it, such a concept, no one is required to believe in order to be saved. I wonder how long will it take to say, that we are required to believe in the trinity concept in order to be saved ?

 

[trofimus]

Let see, " the NT was written by Greeks

One Greek, Luke. He wrote two books of 27.
The rest were Jews.

many years after the death of Christ and the Apostles, they never knew Christ nor the Apostles first hand, they never knew any eye witness to any account, blah blah blah"

This is what atheists try to say, but history says otherwise.

I wonder how long will it take to say, that we are required to believe in the trinity concept in order to be saved ?

400 years after apostles.

https://carm.org/athanasian-creed-500-ad

"Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity, neither confounding the persons, nor dividing the substance."

 

[bluto]

what does polytheism and other gods have to do with the Shema? it makes no mention of other gods. if it was a proclamation of monotheism it should say we worship one G-D and not many gods. but thats not what it says. it proclaims the Most High is one, one opposed to what?

Perhaps jaybird the following will explain it better than I. https://www.gci.org/God/Deut64 You also might find the following site insightful and the meaning of the Shema as to why Elohim is in the plural. https://jewsforjesus.org/publications/issues/issues-v01-n08/jewishness-and-the-trinity/ It seems no matter what I may say you always have questions so like I said, please read the sites I provided and if you still have questions I will be happy to address them.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[Dagallen]

One Greek, Luke. He wrote two books of 27.
The rest were Jews.



This is what atheists try to say, but history says otherwise.



400 years after apostles.

https://carm.org/athanasian-creed-500-ad

"Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity, neither confounding the persons, nor dividing the substance."

A Roman Catholic faith, a Roman Catholic belief, in a trinity concept according to the Roman Catholic church, I was wondering how long it would take you to reveal who you really. Well, I myself am not a follower of the Roman Catholic church nor it's belief system and by the way no one knows the names of the writers of the NT, all that is known is that, the NT was written by Greeks, not Matthew, not Mark, not Luke, not John. The one who most affected the NT was Paul but yet Paul was dead and in his grave before the NT was written and Paul still had a very big in pack on the Greek writers, Paul affected maybe 7 books of the NT but Paul did not write the NT, Greeks wrote the NT. As Greeks play a very big part in the Roman impire, as the people if Rome itself, 90 percent believe in the Pagan belief system, a Trinity concept. One God, is a true Christian belief, one God that is three, is a Pagan belief, that's deception, one God who is three but yet still one God, is a bigger deception, as the beast is a very clever beast indeed.

 

[valiant]

the scribe discussing this with Jesus said "He" was one, not "they" are one. Jesus said the scribe answered wisely.

The Triune God was not known in the OT. Father, Son and Holy Spirit were spoken of as one, as indeed they are in the NT. The plural Elohim took a singular verb for that reason.

 

[trofimus]

A Roman Catholic faith, a Roman Catholic belief, in a trinity concept according to the Roman Catholic church, I was wondering how long it would take you to reveal who you really. Well, I myself am not a follower of the Roman Catholic church nor it's belief system and by the way no one knows the names of the writers of the NT, all that is known is that, the NT was written by Greeks, not Matthew, not Mark, not Luke, not John. The one who most affected the NT was Paul but yet Paul was dead and in his grave before the NT was written and Paul still had a very big in pack on the Greek writers, Paul affected maybe 7 books of the NT but Paul did not write the NT, Greeks wrote the NT. As Greeks play a very big part in the Roman impire, as the people if Rome itself, 90 percent believe in the Pagan belief system, a Trinity concept. One God, is a true Christian belief, one God that is three, is a Pagan belief, that's deception, one God who is three but yet still one God, is a bigger deception, as the beast is a very clever beast indeed.

catholicos = general

Until the year 1000 AD, there was just one, catholic church. Rome was the most significant empire, thats why it was called roman catholic church, i.e. the whole general church in the Roman empire.

Just a history window for you

Year 500 AD is as far away from apostles as we are far away from reformers. We can still very well reconstruct what their faith was from their writings.

 

[valiant]

A Roman Catholic faith, a Roman Catholic belief, in a trinity concept according to the Roman Catholic church, I was wondering how long it would take you to reveal who you really. Well, I myself am not a follower of the Roman Catholic church nor it's belief system

Athanasius was not a member of the Roman Catholic church. And there was in fact no roman catholic church in 4th century, You demonstrate your lack of knowledge about church history at every turn.

and by the way no one knows the names of the writers of the NT,

Well let me enlighten you, Matthew the Apostle wrote Matthew's Gospel, Mark nephew of Barnabas wrote Mark's, Luke the Physician and friend of Paul, wrote Luke's and Acts, John the Apostle wrote John's. Paul wrote his thirteen epistles. Need I go on? Those who disagree do so on slender grounds,

all that is known is that, the NT was written by Greeks, not Matthew, not Mark, not Luke, not John.

The Galileans WERE Greek speakers. You are basing your arguments on nothing,

The one who most affected the NT was Paul but yet Paul was dead and in his grave before the NT was written

total rubbish.


a

nd Paul still had a very big in pack on the Greek writers, Paul affected maybe 7 books of the NT but Paul did not write the NT, Greeks wrote the NT.

you read too much fiction

As Greeks play a very big part in the Roman empire, as the people of Rome itself, 90 percent believe in the Pagan belief system, a Trinity concept.

All the Apostles were fluent in Greek. Galilee was multi lingual.

One God, is a true Christian belief, one God that is three, is a Pagan belief,

funny then that the apostles held it e;g; Matt 28.19

 

[valiant]

Originally Posted by Dagallen I wonder how long will it take to say, that we are required to believe in the trinity concept in order to be saved ?

I personally have grave doubts about the so called salvation of a mature 'believer' who does not accept the Godhead of Jesus.

Christ could only die for all because He was creator of all.

 

[valiant]

what does polytheism and other gods have to do with the Shema? it makes no mention of other gods. if it was a proclamation of monotheism it should say we worship one G-D and not many gods. but thats not what it says. it proclaims the Most High is one, one opposed to what?

The one Creator, Who was Father, Son and Holy Spirit as opposed to His creation.. The Son was the firstBORN before the whole of creation, and was the creator of all things (Jon 1.4)

 

[Dagallen]

I personally have grave doubts about the so called salvation of a mature 'believer' who does not accept the Godhead of Jesus.

Christ could only die for all because He was creator of all.

Show me where scriptures says, you have to believe in a trinity concept in order to be saved ? You can't show me because it's not there, according to scriptures, it was never recorded, of Christ ever saying such a thing, if it was required, Christ would have said so plainly, in fact, the scriptures says, I must believe Jesus is the Son of God, not that I should believe he is God, not that I must believe in a trinity concept, I must believe he is the Son of God or the Savior who was sent, not he is God, not that God who is one but three but yet one, show me such scriptures ? You can't !

 

[trofimus]

Show me where scriptures says...

Why? You just wrote that Scriptures were written by Greeks who had no contact with apostles.

So now they matter again?

 

[valiant]

Let see, " the NT was written by Greeks, many years after the death of Christ and the Apostles,

Absolute nonsense.

they never knew Christ nor the Apostles first hand, they never knew any eye witness to any account, concerning Christ nor the Apostles, they had very little writings from the time of Christ or what he actually spoke but you are saying, everything these Greek wrote, Christ and the Apostles taught, interesting.

your views are the extreme of atheistic teaching.

The Apostles creed came from the church but not from the Apostles, interesting.

Its actually historical fact. And there was no first draft which excluded the Godhead of Jesus. You read too much of the cultic non-scholarly books.

If the church wrote the Apostles creed, according to you, the church must have not taught the whole truth because the church at that time, did not teach of any trinity concept, again, there is no trinity concept in the Apostle Creed,

The earliest 'apostles creed' taught the Godhood of Jesus. But it did not claim to be a full creed.

yes I could agree that the Apostle Creed is a summary of the belief within the church, that has no trinity concept in it.

It taught the Godhood of Jesus. It said nothing about the Holy Spirit. It did not claim to be a full statement of belief (assuming it ever existed in that form)

If the trinity concept was true and so important, then why is it, such a concept, no one is required to believe in order to be saved. I wonder how long will it take to say, that we are required to believe in the trinity concept in order to be saved ?

If you do not believe in the Godhood of Jesus I consider your belief to be worth nothing. You are blinded by Satan (2 Cor 4.4-6)