Sorry I have not entered in the conversation. I am away from home, and relaxing after my graduation. Feels good to be done, but also exciting to be serving God in new ways.
I confess I am puzzled in more ways than one about this whole thread. I like Catholics, and I know many. Most of my Catholic friends have a great love for God and Mary does not enter the picture in their theology. They know Jesus as Lord and Saviour, and they recognize all believers, as those who "Love God, and their neighbor as themselves." (Paraphrase: Luke 10:27). None of them believe that the Catholic Church is the only way to salvation, and I lead Bible studies in long term care, and they all recognize that the way to salvation is through the grace of God.
As for Kecharitomene, it is a hapax legomena. that means it is only found one place in the Bible. Looking at the word closely, and in Exegetical commentaries, the word is a derivative of χάρις or charis. That means grace, favor or kindness. And I am sure that God picked the right woman to bear his Son, and she was Mary. But no where do I see in the Bible, or that word specifically a doctrine of Mary being immaculately conceived.
I also must also pound in the fact, that you NEVER make a doctrine out of just one word, one passage, that is not confirmed in many other places. ESPECIALLY a hapax legomena!! It means you have to go to non- biblical sources to compare usage, and you might get a huge range of meanings, resulting in cherry picking doctrines, like Mary was immaculately conceived.
So bad hermeneutics all the way around!!
On the other hand, that is EXACTLY what this whole post is basically about! Because this doctrine of Mary cannot be seen anywhere in the Bible, so therefore, the Bible is not adequate to explain the truth. So you need some popes making declarations, ex cathedra that Mary was not only immaculately conceived but assumed into heaven.
But even if we create a straw man (or straw Mary!) just to discuss this topic and pretend the Catholic Church is right about Mary, it all comes back to the fact, that Catholic DO pray to Mary, and how is one person (not God!!) supposed to answer to the prayers of millions of Catholic all around the globe, praying the rosary???? Even, as you say, Mary is not God, and only God is worshiped. So how does a mere person, not God hear all those prayers? That in itself is a major stumbling block to this whole Mariology nonsense.
Once again I really think we need to get off the side topic of Mary, and address the real issue with the Catholic church and that is soteriology. How are we saved?
According to the Catholic Church, the monolith of the RCC is what saves, esp the mass, in which a little piece of bread, and a bit of wine turns literally into Jesus, and that is what saved. Jesus work on the cross and believing in that does not save, but rather transubstantiation is the means to salvation.
Transubstantiation is an 18-letter word that is a complete theological statement. . . and the name of a doctrine, out of which springs the most astounding set of beliefs and practices that has ever been taught in the name of religion. Very, very few people know what the Catholic Church actually believes and teaches concerning this subject. and I am convinced that even fewer Catholics realize themselves what they are taking part in. Literally, what "transubstantiation" means the Roman Catholic Church teaches their flocks that the bread and the wine used in the Mass actually, physically, turn into the flesh and blood of Jesus Christ after the priest blesses it during the liturgy (ceremony).
"Jesus Christ does not cease to exist under the appearances of bread and wine after the Mass is over. Furthermore. some hosts are usually kept in all Catholic churches. In these hosts, Jesus is physically and truly present, as long as the appearances of bread remain. Catholics therefore have the praiseworthy practice of 'making visits' to our Lord present in their churches to offer Him their thanks, their adoration, to ask for help and forgiveness; in a word, to make Him the center around which they live their daily lives." ("The Spirit of Jesus" Catholic Home Study Instruction Course, Book #3, p. 92.) That is an incredible interpretation of how to make Jesus the center of your daily life!
Then there is confession to a priest. The priesthood died out with the death and resurrection of Christ and the Bible says we are all a Royal Priesthood.
"But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light." 1 Peter 2:9
In fact, the only other references in the entire Bible to "priest" is the Jewish priest, and then a large section in Hebrews on Jesus being the high priest, which is very instructive.
"For it was indeed fitting that we should have such a high priest, holy, innocent, unstained, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens. [SUP]27 [/SUP]He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people, since he did this once for all when he offered up himself.[SUP]28 [/SUP]For the law appoints men in their weakness as high priests, but the word of the oath, which came later than the law, appoints a Son who has been made perfect forever." Hebrews 7:26-28
We ARE the priests!
"Worthy are you to take the scrolland to open its seals,
for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God
from every tribe and language and people and nation,
[SUP]10 [/SUP]and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God,
and they shall reign on the earth.” Rev. 5:9-10
Who can forgive sins, according to the Bible?
"And when Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven.” [SUP]6 [/SUP]Now some of the scribes were sitting there, questioning in their hearts, [SUP]7 [/SUP]“Why does this man speak like that? He is blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?” Mark 2:5-7
Yet the Catholic church believes that somehow a priest can forgive sins.
"The priest forgives the guilt of mortal sins which saves the penitent from going to hell, but he cannot remit the penalty due for those sins, and so the penitent must atone for them by performance of good works which he prescribes. The penitent may be, and usually is, interrogated by the priest so that he or she may make a full and proper confession. Stress is placed on the fact that any sin not confessed is not forgiven, any mortal sin not confessed in detail is not forgiven, and that the omission of even one sin (mortal) may invalidate the whole confession. Every loyal Roman Catholic is required under pain of mortal sin to go to confession at least once a year. But even after a penitent has received pardon, a large, but unknown amount of punishment remains to be suffered in purgatory." (The doctrine of purgatory rests on the assumption that while God forgives sin, His justice nevertheless demands that the sinner must suffer the full punishment due to him for his sin before he will be allowed to enter heaven.)
I don't know, this sounds like a doctrine straight from the pit of hell. It means a man (the priest!) is the only one who can forgive our sins - not Jesus, not Mary, not a saint - but a man with a collar and title. And yet, the poor person will still need punishment, even though Christ took our punishment on himself. And don't go saying the priest stands in the place of Jesus. Unless you can find a verse somewhere in those 860 references to the word "priest" in the Bible, that says "the Catholic priest takes the place of Jesus in forgiving sins" I am not going to believe this dogma for a second!
"Surely he has borne our griefs
and carried our sorrows;
yet we esteemed him stricken,
smitten by God, and afflicted.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]But he was pierced for our transgressions;
he was crushed for our iniquities;
upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace,
and with his wounds we are healed." Isa. 53:4-5
"For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit," 1 Peter 3:18.
Just give me the verse that states we have to go to purgatory, because Christ's sacrifice wasn't enough. God's justice was satisfied at the cross and no amount of our works or punishment is ever going to breach the separation we have created by our sin to satisfy God. NONE!! And while we are at it, give me a verse that says ONLY a priest can forgive sins, when the Bible is full of verses that Jesus forgives sin, and in fact his very name is from Yeshua in the Hebrew, which means salvation or deliverance.
"The Council of Trent, in its opposition to the reformer's doctrine of justification by faith, and in defense of its doctrine of penance, declared: "Whosoever shall affirm that men are justified solely by the imputation of the righteousness of Christ... let him be accursed" (Council of Trent, section 6.) And the Catholic Almanac says, "Penance is necessary for salvation...and was instituted by Christ for the forgiveness of sins". (pps. 269, 559.)
No wonder the OP started this post. The whole Catholic church falls into ruins if you rely only on the Word of God. You must have all these councils, declarations etc, etc, which add greatly to the rules by which a person can be saved, and take away from the finished work of Christ on the cross.
But again, that is why this is the topic of this thread, because if you believe the Bible, you cannot believe the doctrine of salvation according to the RCC church. The Catholic doctrine of salvation is based on priests, masses and confessions, and that is simply not in the Bible!
"But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— [SUP]22 [/SUP]the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: [SUP]23 [/SUP]for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, [SUP]24 [/SUP]and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, [SUP]25 [/SUP]whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. [SUP]26 [/SUP]It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus." Romans 3:21-26
Nothing about needing Mary, a priest, or suffering punishment in that passage!! Just believing in Christ!
It is obvious by even a brief glimpse into the doctrines of mortal and venial sins, confession, penance, and purgatory, that the Roman Catholic Church has constructed one of the most unbiblical doctrinal systems that has ever been considered "Christian". The fear, anguish, and religious bondage that such a system of "reward and punishment" creates, has tormented millions of lives for centuries, and continues to prey on those who are ignorant of the biblical way of salvation.
To merely call such a system "a cult", would be to throw it into the vast category of religions and quasi-religions that are currently making the rounds of our college campuses and city streets, snatching up many-an-unsuspecting youth. No, the Roman Church is not a cult. It's an empire! With its own ruler, its own laws, and its own subjects! The empire has no borders, it encompasses the globe with its eye on every person who does not vow allegiance. It calls the members of other faiths "separated brethren" (The term used by Vatican II to describe the members of Eastern Orthodox, Anglican, and Protestant churches.) and has as its goal the eventual bringing together of everyone under its flag.
So the OP's point is that you need MORE than the Bible to be saved. I get that. What I just don't see anywhere in that massive, monetarily rich hierarchy is anything that remotely builds on the truth of salvation by the grace of God in their heretical system. And if you want to yell at me about being "anti-Catholic" remember, I did not start this thread, but a Catholic trying to convince us that this wicked and evil church is the only way to salvation.
"Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. [SUP]10 [/SUP]For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved." Romans 10:9-10
Sorry for the LONG post! I just had to make up some ground I lost being mostly off line!
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