There will be no Rapture!!!

[Romans1012]

There will be no pre or mid tribulation rapture. This is an invention of the dispensationalists. The Pre-Rapture was invented by the dispensationalist John Darby in the 19th century. It did not exist before that. Church history did not know a Pre-Rapture before the 19th century.

The Bible clearly states that Christians must go through the Tribulation, for Revelation 20:4 describes how Christians will be beheaded for their faith during the Tribulation. If there really was a Pre-Tribulation Rapture, then logically there would be no Christians in the Tribulation, but because there will be Christians in the Tribulation, that means there will be no Pre-Tribulation Rapture! Revelation 13:7 also declares that Christians will be given into the hand of the Antichrist, which means the Antichrist may overcome Christians and kill them.

Jesus will return only once and that is after the tribulation. Then he will gather all Christians.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

op: there will be no rapture?

Respectfully Disagree Because of Rightly Divided Scripture:

Great GRACE Departure!

Amen.

 

[Truthnightmare]

op: there will be no rapture?

Respectfully Disagree Because of Rightly Divided Scripture:

Great GRACE Departure!

Amen.

Greetings… I don’t see a rapture in scripture, the Bible clearly states that there will be Christians during the tribulation.

 

[Artios1]

Greetings… I don’t see a rapture in scripture, the Bible clearly states that there will be Christians during the tribulation.

Sorry to butt in ..... but I would be interested in knowing where? There will be those who believe ... absolutely! .....But the Bible clearly shows ....no Christians. (as per the meaning of Christians laid out in the epistles) those of us with Christ in us, of the church of God, the one body of Christ.

 

[SpeakTruth101]

Matthew 24:29-31, “And immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give its light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. “And then the sign of the Son of Aḏam shall appear in the heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of Aḏam coming on the clouds of the heaven with power and much esteem. “And He shall send His messengers with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His chosen ones from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.”

Post Tribulation pre Wrath

 

[Truthnightmare]

Sorry to butt in ..... but I would be interested in knowing where? There will be those who believe ... absolutely! .....But the Bible clearly shows ....no Christians. (as per the meaning of Christians laid out in the epistles) those of us with Christ in us, of the church of God, the one body of Christ.

In the book of Revelation seals are opened. When those seals are opened, some pretty bad things happen to mankind.
Revelation 6:4
And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.
- Does the rapture happen before this?

 

[Truthnightmare]

Matthew 24:29-31, “And immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give its light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. “And then the sign of the Son of Aḏam shall appear in the heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of Aḏam coming on the clouds of the heaven with power and much esteem. “And He shall send His messengers with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His chosen ones from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.”

Post Tribulation pre Wrath

When does the tribulation end, and the wrath begin?

 

[SpeakTruth101]

When does the tribulation end, and the wrath begin?

At the 7th trumpet

Revelation 11:15, “And the seventh messenger sounded his trumpet, and there came to be loud voices in the heaven, saying, “The reign of this world has become the reign of our Master, and of His Messiah, and He shall reign forever and ever!”

Revelation 15:1-8, “And I saw another sign in the heaven, great and marvelous: seven messengers having the seven last plagues, for the wrath of יהוה was ended in them. And I saw like a sea of glass mixed with fire, and those overcoming the beast and his image and his mark and the number of his name, standing on the sea of glass, holding harps of יהוה. And they sing the song of Mosheh the servant of יהוה, and the song of the Lamb, saying, “Great and marvelous are Your works, יהוה Strength Almighty! Righteous and true are Your ways, O Sovereign of the set-apart ones! Who shall not fear You, O יהוה, and esteem Your Name? Because You alone are kind. Because all nations shall come and worship before You, for Your righteousness have been made manifest.”And after this I looked and saw the Dwelling Place of the Tent of Witness in the heaven was opened. And out of the Dwelling Place came the seven messengers having the seven plagues, dressed in clean bright linen, and having their chests girded with golden bands. And one of the four living creatures gave to the seven messengers seven golden bowls filled with the wrath of יהוה who lives forever and ever. And the Dwelling Place was filled with smoke from the esteem of יהוה and from His power, and no one was able to enter the Dwelling Place until the seven plagues of the seven messengers were ended.”

Revelation 15:7,
“And one of the four living creatures gave to the seven messengers seven golden bowls filled with the wrath of יהוה who lives forever and ever.”

Revelation 1:9-10,
“I, Yoḥanan, both your brother and co-sharer in pressure, and in the reign and endurance of יהושע Messiah, came to be on the island that is called Patmos for the Word of יהוה and for the witness of יהושע Messiah. I came to be in the Spirit on the Day of יהוה, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet*.”

Isaiah 13:9-13,
“Howl, for the day of יהוה is near! It comes as a destruction from the Almighty. Therefore all hands go limp, every man’s heart melts, and they shall be afraid. Pangs and sorrows take hold of them, they are in pain as a woman in labor; they are amazed at one another, their faces aflame! See, the day of יהוה is coming, fierce, with wrath and heat of displeasure, to lay the earth waste, and destroy its sinners from it. For the stars of the heavens and their constellations do not give off their light. The sun shall be dark at its rising, and the moon not send out its light. And I shall punish the world for its evil, and the wrong for their crookedness, and shall put an end to the arrogance of the proud, and lay low the pride of the ruthless. I shall make mortal man scarcer than fine gold, and mankind scarcer than the gold of Ophir. So I shall make the heavens tremble, and the earth shall shake from her place, in the wrath of יהוה of hosts and in the day of the heat of His displeasure.”

 

[Talljake]

The ones that are beheaded are the ones that turn to Christ in the times of the great tribulation. They deny the mark and take a stand for Christ. The church is already gone before this happens. In revelation 3:20-22 is where the rapture is implied before the events in 4-19 meaning the church wont be present on earth in the great tribulation.

I'm not trying to start any problems, but this is what I have been taught, and this is what I've learned so far and yes I am still learning. I do believe in pre tribulation, I don't believe the lord is going to let his church go through these times.

 

[SpeakTruth101]

The ones that are beheaded are the ones that turn to Christ in the times of the great tribulation. They deny the mark and take a stand for Christ. The church is already gone before this happens. In revelation 3:20-22 is where the rapture is implied before the events in 4-19 meaning the church wont be present on earth in the great tribulation.

I'm not trying to start any problems, but this is what I have been taught, and this is what I've learned so far and yes I am still learning. I do believe in pre tribulation, I don't believe the lord is going to let his church go through these times.

He literall says after the trib

Matthew 24:29-31, “And immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give its light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. “And then the sign of the Son of Aḏam shall appear in the heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of Aḏam coming on the clouds of the heaven with power and much esteem. “And He shall send His messengers with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His chosen ones from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.”

but it is pre wrath of YHWH, thats by far the worst part.

 

[Artios1]

Yes
Quite honestly it wouldn't matter to me what came next the rapture or the tribulation. Maybe matter isn't the best word to use ...I use that because the events have already been pre-determined and written in the Word, and what I believe or write will not alter what is going to happen... with that said
I believe that Bible is abundantly clear .... "the gathering together unto Him" (aka rapture) is the next event to take place. After it does, then technically the "Day of the Lord" which encompasses the entire tribulation period .... begins.

Please give me until tomorrow evening to more thoroughly and clearly explain this.... and why there is understandably some confusion....

 

[Mem]

Jesus' parable of the wheat and tares illustrates that the tares will first be collected and tied in bundles (wrath) to be burned (at the end of the millennium) and then the wheat (those who are alive and remain) will be gathered into the barn (rapture, never to be burned) at the time of harvest. How has this order of events been reversed?

 

[Truthnightmare]

At the 7th trumpet

Revelation 11:15, “And the seventh messenger sounded his trumpet, and there came to be loud voices in the heaven, saying, “The reign of this world has become the reign of our Master, and of His Messiah, and He shall reign forever and ever!”

Revelation 15:1-8, “And I saw another sign in the heaven, great and marvelous: seven messengers having the seven last plagues, for the wrath of יהוה was ended in them. And I saw like a sea of glass mixed with fire, and those overcoming the beast and his image and his mark and the number of his name, standing on the sea of glass, holding harps of יהוה. And they sing the song of Mosheh the servant of יהוה, and the song of the Lamb, saying, “Great and marvelous are Your works, יהוה Strength Almighty! Righteous and true are Your ways, O Sovereign of the set-apart ones! Who shall not fear You, O יהוה, and esteem Your Name? Because You alone are kind. Because all nations shall come and worship before You, for Your righteousness have been made manifest.”And after this I looked and saw the Dwelling Place of the Tent of Witness in the heaven was opened. And out of the Dwelling Place came the seven messengers having the seven plagues, dressed in clean bright linen, and having their chests girded with golden bands. And one of the four living creatures gave to the seven messengers seven golden bowls filled with the wrath of יהוה who lives forever and ever. And the Dwelling Place was filled with smoke from the esteem of יהוה and from His power, and no one was able to enter the Dwelling Place until the seven plagues of the seven messengers were ended.”

Revelation 15:7,
“And one of the four living creatures gave to the seven messengers seven golden bowls filled with the wrath of יהוה who lives forever and ever.”

Revelation 1:9-10,
“I, Yoḥanan, both your brother and co-sharer in pressure, and in the reign and endurance of יהושע Messiah, came to be on the island that is called Patmos for the Word of יהוה and for the witness of יהושע Messiah. I came to be in the Spirit on the Day of יהוה, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet*.”

Isaiah 13:9-13,
“Howl, for the day of יהוה is near! It comes as a destruction from the Almighty. Therefore all hands go limp, every man’s heart melts, and they shall be afraid. Pangs and sorrows take hold of them, they are in pain as a woman in labor; they are amazed at one another, their faces aflame! See, the day of יהוה is coming, fierce, with wrath and heat of displeasure, to lay the earth waste, and destroy its sinners from it. For the stars of the heavens and their constellations do not give off their light. The sun shall be dark at its rising, and the moon not send out its light. And I shall punish the world for its evil, and the wrong for their crookedness, and shall put an end to the arrogance of the proud, and lay low the pride of the ruthless. I shall make mortal man scarcer than fine gold, and mankind scarcer than the gold of Ophir. So I shall make the heavens tremble, and the earth shall shake from her place, in the wrath of יהוה of hosts and in the day of the heat of His displeasure.”

Are you saying, after the tribulation, but before the wrath, some type of rapture takes place? Will there be Christian’s on the earth when the veils (wrath) begins?

 

[Mem]

The context of Parable of the Weeds of Matthew 13 is cross-referenced with Ezekiel 17 1-10 and so I gather that the conclusion would be similar to that of Ezekiel 17

(similarly, to the tare)
19Therefore this is what the Lord GOD says: ‘As surely as I live, I will bring down upon his head My oath that he despised and My covenant that he broke. 20I will spread My net over him and catch him in My snare. I will bring him to Babylon and execute judgment upon him there for the treason he committed against Me. 21All his choice troopsd will fall by the sword, and those who survive will be scattered to every wind. Then you will know that I, the LORD, have spoken.’

(similarly, to the wheat)
22This is what the Lord GOD says:
‘I will take a shoot from the lofty top of the cedar,
and I will set it out.
I will pluck a tender sprig from its topmost shoots,
and I will plant it on a high and lofty mountain.

23I will plant it on the mountain heights of Israel
so that it will bear branches;
it will yield fruit
and become a majestic cedar.
Birds of every kind will nest under it,
taking shelter in the shade of its branches.

24Then all the trees of the field will know
that I am the LORD.
I bring the tall tree down (tare)
and make the low tree tall. (wheat)
I dry up the green tree (tare)
and make the withered tree flourish. (wheat)
I, the LORD, have spoken,
and I have done it.’ ”

 

[SpeakTruth101]

Are you saying, after the tribulation, but before the wrath, some type of rapture takes place?

This shows after the trib Yahshua returns and His Malakim gather the chosen of YHWH

Matthew 24:29-31, “And immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give its light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. “And then the sign of the Son of Aḏam shall appear in the heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of Aḏam coming on the clouds of the heaven with power and much esteem. “And He shall send His messengers with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His chosen ones from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.”

Revelation 11:15-18, 15 And the seventh messenger sounded, and there came to be loud voices in the heaven, saying, “The reign of this world has become the reign of our Master, and of His Messiah, and He shall reign forever and ever!”16 And the twenty-four elders sitting before Elohim on their thrones fell on their faces and worshipped Elohim, 17 saying, “We give You thanks, O יהוה Ěl Shaddai, the One who is and who was and who is coming, because You have taken Your great power and reigned. 18 “And the nations were enraged, Psa 2:1 and Your wrath has come, and the time of the dead to be judged, and to give the reward to Your servants the prophets and to the set-apart ones, and to those who fear Your Name, small and great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth.”

John 5:28-30, “Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the tombs shall hear His voice, and shall come forth – those who have practiced righteousness, to the resurrection of life, and those who have practiced evil matters, to a resurrection of judgment. Of Myself I am unable to do any matter. As I hear, I judge, and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own desire, but the desire of the Father who sent Me.”

Will there be Christian’s on the earth when the veils (wrath) begins?

Titles do not matter, the judgment of YHWH is what matters. Those gathered by the Messengers as stated in Matt 24:31 are taken up

 

[Truthnightmare]

Jesus' parable of the wheat and tares illustrates that the tares will first be collected and tied in bundles (wrath) to be burned (at the end of the millennium) and then the wheat (those who are alive and remain) will be gathered into the barn (rapture, never to be burned) at the time of harvest. How has this order of events been reversed?

I view the events a bit different from you… The disciples did not understand the parable.. so Jesus explained it to them.

Matthew 13: 40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

It doesn’t say the wheat will be raptured or gathered to a barn. But I’m still learning.

 

[FollowingtheWay]

Dr.Michael Brown has a unique perspective

 

[Mem]

I view the events a bit different from you… The disciples did not understand the parable.. so Jesus explained it to them.

Matthew 13: 40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

It doesn’t say the wheat will be raptured or gathered to a barn. But I’m still learning.

Jesus explained that the field as the world and this is where the "sorting out the things that offend" happens. The Lord also adds another like parable of the net which is thrown into the sea and, when it is full, men draw it ashore and sort the good into containers but throw away the bad and Jesus explains that as, "...The angels will come out and separate the evil from the righteous. 50 and throw them into the fiery furnace..."

Both these examples have what has become known as "the rapture" occurring simultaneously with the wrath, but apparently excluding the definition of the rapture as a collective 'disappearance' of the righteous.

 

[Talljake]

 

[Truthnightmare]

Jesus explained that the field as the world and this is where the "sorting out the things that offend" happens. The Lord also adds another like parable of the net which is thrown into the sea and, when it is full, men draw it ashore and sort the good into containers but throw away the bad and Jesus explains that as, "...The angels will come out and separate the evil from the righteous. 50 and throw them into the fiery furnace..."

Both these examples have what has become known as "the rapture" occurring simultaneously with the wrath, but apparently excluding the definition of the rapture as a collective 'disappearance' of the righteous.

Just to clarify… Do you believe the rapture happens before the tribulation?