There will be no Rapture!!!

[TMS]

Rapture can mean an intense feeling of joy....

Or it can mean the transporting (traveling) from earth to heaven.

The Bible definitely supports a rapture.

When Jesus returns He will take the saved back to heaven.....

Joh 14:2-3
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

1Th 4:16-17
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Rev 22:12-14
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. ....14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Jesus is coming again and this is when the rapture will happen.

 

[lukasdrow]

maybe the people of Christ will somehow be protected, in the period of the antichrist, they always wrote that without the sign of peace, we would not get to work, food or money at all...
even in the past, God sometimes sent food to all the people..

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

Right. The text states (in 4:4) "having been clothed in leukos himation"--the very same thing that was promised to believers ("shall be clothed [future-tense]") in previous chpt--so it only makes sense that 4:4 is showing the fulfillment of that very promise...

... and we already know about "crowns [stephanous]" as rewards / awards (Paul said in 2Tim4:8 that he would be awarded one "IN THAT DAY" [i.e. not the day of his DEATH], and "not to him only"... This pertains to the "BEMA" for rewards / awards)







[as to the "thrones," the way I understand it is that it also pertains to what we are told in 1Cor6:3[,14], "Know ye not that WE SHALL JUDGE ANGELS?"]

Yeah, I know. It's just that I'm not going to jump to conclusions about that right now because it's unclear to me, personally. I'm glad it's already clear to you though. There are two people hotly debating it right now and they both make some sense on some points. So I will file what they've posted away in mind until God makes it clearer to me in Scripture. It's interesting!


🧦

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

maybe the people of Christ will somehow be protected, in the period of the antichrist, they always wrote that without the sign of peace, we would not get to work, food or money at all...
even in the past, God sometimes sent food to all the people..

To be sure some people will be protected and will be kept alive to the end. The Bible says so:

1 Thessalonians 4:15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

So build up your faith in the Lord and develop a sensitive ear to His direction and and instructions. Remain in Him so that He keeps you calm. If you're calm you will remember that He is protecting and you won't end up panicking.

For me, I already know I'm going home to the Lord (a.k.a. martyred) before He returns and I'm fine with that!


🧦

 

[Musicmaster]

Rapture can mean an intense feeling of joy....

Or it can mean the transporting (traveling) from earth to heaven.

The Bible definitely supports a rapture.

When Jesus returns He will take the saved back to heaven.....

Joh 14:2-3
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

1Th 4:16-17
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Rev 22:12-14
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. ....14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Jesus is coming again and this is when the rapture will happen.

Ok, so you are Amillennial?

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

maybe the people of Christ will somehow be protected, in the period of the antichrist, they always wrote that without the sign of peace, we would not get to work, food or money at all...
even in the past, God sometimes sent food to all the people..

Please keep in mind that the text says that we will be saved FROM, not WITHIN. There's a vast difference.

Thoughts?

MM

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Yes, the rapture / resurrection occurs at the second coming, its evident from the passages surrounding it.

Where you say, "it is evident from the passages surrounding it," what verse are you saying "the passages surrounding IT" make evident such?


I would say, instead, that this is your pre-supposition.

And not actually the case. = )

There is only "ONE" second coming, not many.

1) There is only "ONE" RETURN (of Christ) to the earth (what is commonly termed His "Second Coming"--a phrase not found in Scripture itself)--spoken of in:

--Luke 19:12,15,17,19 [and parallel] "RETURN"... when He will deal out responsibilities having to do with "have thou authority over 10 cities" and "likewise... be thou also over 5 cities" ('cities' are on the earth); and

--Luke 12:36-37,38,40,42-44 [and its parallel] "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding..." ...THEN "the meal [G347; Grk word used also in Matt8:11 and its parallel, speaking of the earthly MK age]"--Now, why do you suppose it says, "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding..."?? Because He will be an "ALREADY-WED Bridegroom" at that time-slot (when he "RETURNS" to the earth Rev19)


2) There is likewise only "ONE" RAPTURE [IN THE AIR], and it pertains SOLELY TO "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (not to all other saints of all OTHER time periods: not to OT saints, not to Trib saints, not to MK-age saints). It takes place at a completely distinct time-slot from that of His "RETURN" to the earth at Rev19

Acts 1:11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

If this is your support for the previous statement,

CONSIDER:

1) yes, He shall so come in like manner AS YE HAVE SEEN Him traveling into Heaven--IOW, this is indeed how He will "RETURN" to the earth at Rev19 (i.e. VISIBLY) when "EVERY EYE" shall "SEE" Him Rev1:7... and it will be the "MANIFESTATION of the presence / parousia of Him" 2Th2:8b (in CONTRAST to that which 1Th3:13 speaks of)... and it will be when He will be "OPENLY MANIFEST [/'shall shew']" 1Tim6:15 (comp. Rev19:16 / 17:14); however,


2) Acts 1 was His SECOND ascension; He had already ascended some "40 days" EARLIER, when HE TOLD Mary Magdalene to "Go and SAY UNTO My brethren, I ASCEND..." John 20:17 (He did so, that very day... thereby fulfilling Lev23:10-12 "FIRSTFRUIT" ON His Resurrection Day [which was ON "FIRSTFRUIT"--that date!]);


3) so the wording in Acts 1:11 corresponds with the LATTER of TWO ascensions (the SECOND ONE being "VISIBLE" to those standing o the earth in that passage; the FIRST ONE, some "40 days" EARLIER (Jn20:17), not being "visible" to anyone, but only "TOLD" to one person who was to GO and SAY UNTO... [and they DID NOT believe her, by the way, Mark 16:10-11]);


4) I find, through studying all pertinent passages, that the "pattern" ^ holds true (re: the "future" events under present discussion); for example: there are TWO mentions of "FIRSTFRUIT" in Lev23--James 1:18 AGREES where it says, "a KIND of firstfruit" (i.e. there is MORE THAN ONE "KIND") which correlate with the fact that, in Scripture and in nature, there is MORE THAN ONE "harvest"--the "WHEAT" harvest (we are NOT the "WHEAT" harvest, btw) is harvested by means of a "tribulum" (harvesting implement), whereas the EARLIER harvest is harvested by means of TOSSING UP INTO THE AIR and BLOWING away the chaff;


5) Many people miss these distinctions because, for one, they adopt an incorrect (but widely popular) definition of the phrase "the Day of the Lord" (when it starts, what all it encompasses, etc), and this first misstep takes them far-afield from what certain passages are actually conveying

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Please keep in mind that the text says that we will be saved FROM, not WITHIN. There's a vast difference.

Agreed.


Literal Standard Version
Because you kept the word of My endurance, I also will keep you from the hour of the trial that is about to come on all the world, to try those dwelling on the earth.

Berean Literal Bible
Because you have kept the word of My patient endurance, I also will keep you out of the hour of the trial being about to come upon the whole inhabited world, to try those dwelling upon the earth.

Young's Literal Translation
'Because thou didst keep the word of my endurance, I also will keep thee from the hour of the trial that is about to come upon all the world, to try those dwelling upon the earth.

Smith's Literal Translation
For thou didst keep the word of my patience, and I will keep thee from the hour of temptation, about to come upon the whole habitable globe, to try them dwelling upon the earth.

Literal Emphasis Translation
Because you have kept the word of My endurance, I also will keep you from out of the hour of the trial being about to come upon the whole inhabited world to try those residing upon the earth.

King James Bible
Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

A Faithful Version
Because you have kept the word of My patience, I also will keep you from the time of temptation which is about to come upon the whole world to try those who dwell on the earth.

English Revised Version
Because thou didst keep the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of trial, that hour which is to come upon the whole world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Webster's Bible Translation
Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Geneva Bible of 1587
Because thou hast kept the woorde of my patience, therefore I wil deliuer thee from the houre of tentation, which will come vpon all the world, to trie them that dwell vpon the earth.




To "keep thee FROM THE HOUR OF" means to keep from the TIME-PERIOD OF it.

(that is, to "keep thee OUT-FROM" the time-period of it; But this doesn't speak with regard to those who will be coming to faith in Christ WITHIN / DURING it...)

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

We're less than a year and 1/3 away from the Red Heifer sacrifice and the purification of the High Priest for the 3rd Temple that happens in the BEGINNING of Tribulation.

Oddly enough, it's not until the Middle (3.5 and after year mark of Tribulation) when Paul says the AC will sit in the Temple claiming to be God..
2:4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.
and Daniels
12:11 And from the time that the continual burnt-offering shall be taken away, and the detestable thing that causes appalment set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.


The Hour of Temptation isn't until the 2nd Half of Tribulation.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

We're less than a year and 1/3 away from the Red Heifer sacrifice and the purification of the High Priest for the 3rd Temple that happens in the BEGINNING of Tribulation.

Oddly enough, it's not until the Middle (3.5 and after year mark of Tribulation) when Paul says the AC will sit in the Temple claiming to be God..
2:4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.
and Daniels
12:11 And from the time that the continual burnt-offering shall be taken away, and the detestable thing that causes appalment set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

The Hour of Temptation isn't until the 2nd Half of Tribulation.

I disagree, and will try to explain why:

--the text (Rv3:10) states that "the hour of the trial / temptation" shall "come upon all the world, TO TRY THEM THAT DWELL UPON THE EARTH";

--The part of 2Th2:4 (I put in RED, v.4a) is what the Tribulation period (7 yrs) STARTS OUT with; THEN the second part of that verse (I put in BLUE, v.4b) is what the AC will do at the MID-point (Dan12:11 and Matt24:15)+;

--the RED corresponds with the "whose COMING / ADVENT / ARRIVAL / PRESENCE / PAROUSIA" (2Th2:9a) of the man of sin (IN HIS TIME v.6), which likewise corresponds with Daniel 11:36 (read the whole verse, though), "And the king [see Dan7's "another [horn/king]" vv.8,11] shall do according to his [own] will..." [<--this is "regime-change" language, so to speak, as used elsewhere in Dan];
And Daniel 11:36 (the "whose COMING/ARRIVAL" aspect) is well PRIOR TO the MID-point spoken of in Dan12:1-4 (etc)!

ALL related passages AGREE on this point!



--IOW, ALL related passages supply the SAME "BEGINNING... MIDDLE... [and] END" points of the chronology (which ALL "match / correspond" in THEME / DESCRIPTION and time-frames!--Thess--Dan--Rev--Matt/Olivet-Discourse...). It's just that many folks tend to overlook some of those "connections" (one of those being that the ARRIVAL of "the Day of the Lord" (per 1Th5:1-3) EQUALS the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" Jesus spoke of [when He was telling of "the beginning of birth PANGS [plural]"[, which likewise EQUALS the FIRST "SEAL" at the START of the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time-period we commonly call "the 7 yr Tribulation Period [1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1], aka "the hour [/time-period] of the trial / temptation..." [not merely the SECOND HALF])

 

[Musicmaster]

We're less than a year and 1/3 away from the Red Heifer sacrifice and the purification of the High Priest for the 3rd Temple that happens in the BEGINNING of Tribulation.

Oddly enough, it's not until the Middle (3.5 and after year mark of Tribulation) when Paul says the AC will sit in the Temple claiming to be God..
2:4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.
and Daniels
12:11 And from the time that the continual burnt-offering shall be taken away, and the detestable thing that causes appalment set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.


The Hour of Temptation isn't until the 2nd Half of Tribulation.

Did you get that timeline from the Temple Institute in Jerusalem? I wasn't aware that they had set a solid timeline as of yet.

MM

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Did you get that timeline from the Temple Institute in Jerusalem? I wasn't aware that they had set a solid timeline as of yet.

MM

I saw in a Hebrew video where the heifers are 1 1/3 years from being the age required in the Book of Numbers and a Rabbi had purchased land for them where you could visible see the monuments required.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

I disagree, and will try to explain why:

--the text (Rv3:10) states that "the hour of the trial / temptation" shall "come upon all the world, TO TRY THEM THAT DWELL UPON THE EARTH";

--The part of 2Th2:4 (I put in RED, v.4a) is what the Tribulation period (7 yrs) STARTS OUT with; THEN the second part of that verse (I put in BLUE, v.4b) is what the AC will do at the MID-point (Dan12:11 and Matt24:15)+;

--the RED corresponds with the "whose COMING / ADVENT / ARRIVAL / PRESENCE / PAROUSIA" (2Th2:9a) of the man of sin (IN HIS TIME v.6), which likewise corresponds with Daniel 11:36 (read the whole verse, though), "And the king [see Dan7's "another [horn/king]" vv.8,11] shall do according to his [own] will..." [<--this is "regime-change" language, so to speak, as used elsewhere in Dan];
And Daniel 11:36 (the "whose COMING/ARRIVAL" aspect) is well PRIOR TO the MID-point spoken of in Dan12:1-4 (etc)!

ALL related passages AGREE on this point!



--IOW, ALL related passages supply the SAME "BEGINNING... MIDDLE... [and] END" points of the chronology (which ALL "match / correspond" in THEME / DESCRIPTION and time-frames!--Thess--Dan--Rev--Matt/Olivet-Discourse...). It's just that many folks tend to overlook some of those "connections" (one of those being that the ARRIVAL of "the Day of the Lord" (per 1Th5:1-3) EQUALS the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" Jesus spoke of [when He was telling of "the beginning of birth PANGS [plural]"[, which likewise EQUALS the FIRST "SEAL" at the START of the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time-period we commonly call "the 7 yr Tribulation Period [1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1], aka "the hour [/time-period] of the trial / temptation..." [not merely the SECOND HALF])

The first 3 1/2 years are an actual Peace Treaty fulfillment so no attack on Abrahamic beliefs. Every Biblical reference confirms this. So no hour of Temptation will be taking place on the Church and other followers of Yeshua-Yehova until the Treaty is broken.

You may think what you like but it's not according to the Facts of the Peace Treaty that ""will not"" be broken until after mid-tribulation.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Never forget

7:12 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.

The Ark and Noah went through the Rain, not above it.

 

[Slimsumo]

Where you say, "it is evident from the passages surrounding it," what verse are you saying "the passages surrounding IT" make evident such?


I would say, instead, that this is your pre-supposition.

And not actually the case. = )




1) There is only "ONE" RETURN (of Christ) to the earth (what is commonly termed His "Second Coming"--a phrase not found in Scripture itself)--spoken of in:

--Luke 19:12,15,17,19 [and parallel] "RETURN"... when He will deal out responsibilities having to do with "have thou authority over 10 cities" and "likewise... be thou also over 5 cities" ('cities' are on the earth); and

--Luke 12:36-37,38,40,42-44 [and its parallel] "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding..." ...THEN "the meal [G347; Grk word used also in Matt8:11 and its parallel, speaking of the earthly MK age]"--Now, why do you suppose it says, "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding..."?? Because He will be an "ALREADY-WED Bridegroom" at that time-slot (when he "RETURNS" to the earth Rev19)


2) There is likewise only "ONE" RAPTURE [IN THE AIR], and it pertains SOLELY TO "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (not to all other saints of all OTHER time periods: not to OT saints, not to Trib saints, not to MK-age saints). It takes place at a completely distinct time-slot from that of His "RETURN" to the earth at Rev19





If this is your support for the previous statement,

CONSIDER:

1) yes, He shall so come in like manner AS YE HAVE SEEN Him traveling into Heaven--IOW, this is indeed how He will "RETURN" to the earth at Rev19 (i.e. VISIBLY) when "EVERY EYE" shall "SEE" Him Rev1:7... and it will be the "MANIFESTATION of the presence / parousia of Him" 2Th2:8b (in CONTRAST to that which 1Th3:13 speaks of)... and it will be when He will be "OPENLY MANIFEST [/'shall shew']" 1Tim6:15 (comp. Rev19:16 / 17:14); however,


2) Acts 1 was His SECOND ascension; He had already ascended some "40 days" EARLIER, when HE TOLD Mary Magdalene to "Go and SAY UNTO My brethren, I ASCEND..." John 20:17 (He did so, that very day... thereby fulfilling Lev23:10-12 "FIRSTFRUIT" ON His Resurrection Day [which was ON "FIRSTFRUIT"--that date!]);


3) so the wording in Acts 1:11 corresponds with the LATTER of TWO ascensions (the SECOND ONE being "VISIBLE" to those standing o the earth in that passage; the FIRST ONE, some "40 days" EARLIER (Jn20:17), not being "visible" to anyone, but only "TOLD" to one person who was to GO and SAY UNTO... [and they DID NOT believe her, by the way, Mark 16:10-11]);


4) I find, through studying all pertinent passages, that the "pattern" ^ holds true (re: the "future" events under present discussion); for example: there are TWO mentions of "FIRSTFRUIT" in Lev23--James 1:18 AGREES where it says, "a KIND of firstfruit" (i.e. there is MORE THAN ONE "KIND") which correlate with the fact that, in Scripture and in nature, there is MORE THAN ONE "harvest"--the "WHEAT" harvest (we are NOT the "WHEAT" harvest, btw) is harvested by means of a "tribulum" (harvesting implement), whereas the EARLIER harvest is harvested by means of TOSSING UP INTO THE AIR and BLOWING away the chaff;


5) Many people miss these distinctions because, for one, they adopt an incorrect (but widely popular) definition of the phrase "the Day of the Lord" (when it starts, what all it encompasses, etc), and this first misstep takes them far-afield from what certain passages are actually conveying

I've heard the arguments about the jewish wedding and all that, im just biblically not convinced.

1 Corinthians 15 says it very simply as well:
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Thats the order. No 3rd group there after the "tribulation" or before it.

 

[John146]

I've heard the arguments about the jewish wedding and all that, im just biblically not convinced.

1 Corinthians 15 says it very simply as well:
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Thats the order. No 3rd group there after the "tribulation" or before it.

So you believe that only a fraction of the body Christ will go through the tribulation?

 

[Musicmaster]

The first 3 1/2 years are an actual Peace Treaty fulfillment so no attack on Abrahamic beliefs. Every Biblical reference confirms this. So no hour of Temptation will be taking place on the Church and other followers of Yeshua-Yehova until the Treaty is broken.

You may think what you like but it's not according to the Facts of the Peace Treaty that ""will not"" be broken until after mid-tribulation.

Yeah, but the wrath of the Lamb is still being poured out in the first half upon the whole world, which will culminate in the death of about 2 Billion people worldwide. Maybe YOU will be here for that, but we won't, especially considering that we are not reserved (appointed) for wrath. If you want to stick around, then more power to ya.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

Never forget

7:12 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.

The Ark and Noah went through the Rain, not above it.

Nonsense! They were rescued from all the destruction of life from that flood. Comparing apples to oranges doesn't make any case...other than to show the differences.

MM

 

[Slimsumo]

So you believe that only a fraction of the body Christ will go through the tribulation?

Christians been dying all over the world for centuries. The Bible is clear that in the days prior to Jesus' coming many, maybe even most Christians will be killed:


15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

alive and remain because MANY have already died by this point.

The book of Revelation talks about the number of martyrs becoming full.

No way out. Even if the pre-trib rapture is true, the so called "left behind" people which the Bible never talks about will become Christians and will be martyred. Same result, but the americans get to keep their stir fry and someone else has to take the hit. Convenient.

Thats something that should strike people as odd, there are ZERO verses in the Bible about a rapture happening and people being "left behind", zero advice is given to these people on what to do, zero mentions of this type of scene occuring. Its all dispensationalist science fiction

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Never forget

7:12 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.

The Ark and Noah went through the Rain, not above it.

In Matthew 24 and Luke 17 (where the example of Noah / "as the days of Noah were, SO SHALL"... is given), I do NOT believe he's [shown as] an example of "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" time-slot; but instead, those who will exist in the Trib yrs and who will ENTER the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age in their mortal bodies (COMP. Dan2:35c and Gen9:1 with the wording of these passages in the Gospels about Noah: "fill / filled the [whole] earth").

In the Lk17 passage especially, it ends with: "and DESTROYED them ALL" vv.27,29 (that is NOT what happens following "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]," but rather, at the time of His Second Coming to the earth Rev19--i.e. NO unbelievers will ENTER the MK age).


So, yes, there WILL BE "believers" existing in the Trib yrs (many surviving clear to the END and thus ENTERING the MK age in their mortal bodies); They just are not "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" and are never referred to by that designation.






[instead, I believe "ENOCH" (ONE MAN) is a picture of "our Rapture"... taking place wholly OUTSIDE of when the flood-JUDGMENT took place upon the earth]