Thief in the Night-- Pretrib or Second Coming?

[Clayman]

Lucy-Pevensie said:
If I may.... I would suggest to read the entire chapter of Zechariah 14
but to zoom in specifically on mortal survivors, this section:

16 Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King,
the Lord Almighty, and to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles.
17 If any of the peoples of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, they will have no rain.
18 If the Egyptian people do not go up and take part, they will have no rain. The Lord will bring on them the plague he inflicts
on the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles.
19 This will be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles.

The logic is clear. There will be one resurrection of the saved; and that will be "when He comes" per 1 Cor 15:23 and ALL believers will receive glorified bodies. And this will be at the Second Advent, when Jesus returns to reign for 1,000 years. So the only survivors of the Tribulation will be unbelievers. They will be the mortals who re-populate the earth during the Millennial kingdom.

This also explains the world wide rebellion against the King at the end of the Tribulation:

Rev 20-
7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison
8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore.
9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

So, all surviving unbelievers will be killed, prior to the GWT judgment, which follows v.10. So the resurrection of unbelievers will occur before the GWT judgment and their revived mortal bodies will DIE again when cast into the LOF.

That is why the LOF is also called the Second Death.

Thanks, when you say

So the only survivors of the Tribulation will be unbelievers. They will be the mortals who re-populate the earth during the Millennial kingdom.

Just to be clear(sorry this is all new to me) The only mortals who enter into the kingdom are unbelievers so no believers? the survivors who, can I presume worshiped the Antichrist? took the mark of the beast persecuted Jews are also the ones who go up to Jerusalem every year to worship the King, the Lord Almighty when they celebrate the feast of tabernacles?

Zech 14:16 Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King,
the Lord Almighty, and to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacle or my bible version says those left of all the nations

What about in Israel, some of the gentiles go there and become priests and the Jews are obviously mortals as there are also children there, were they all unbelievers at the start of the kingdom and became believers? If my questions are seeming to be totally naive its because Ive never heard this before, when I read the bible I just went with how I rightly or wrongly understood it that those who entered into the kingdom were mostly believing survivors whose offspring reject God at the end the 1000yrs which also teaches us something about sin but thats another topic I suppose.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Pre-tribbers are batting 1000 bro.

This is as silly as the posts of Absolutely.

They always do. Why pray tell? Only because they know exactly what they are talking about and are 100% right 100% of the time.

They never do. In ALL the passages about the resurrection, there is NO MENTION of Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.

Why isn't there any verse about Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven? Because He won't be doing that.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Thanks, when you say
"So the only survivors of the Tribulation will be unbelievers. They will be the mortals who re-populate the earth during the Millennial kingdom."

Just to be clear(sorry this is all new to me) The only mortals who enter into the kingdom are unbelievers so no believers?

That is correct. There is just one resurrection for all believers, which occurs at the Second Advent when Jesus returns to earth. 1 Cor 15:23 says that this singular resurrection will be for "those who belong to Him", which means ALL believers from Adam forward.

The verse also says it will be "when He comes", which is the Second Advent. And the Second Advent not only ends the Tribulation at the battle of Armageddon, but the setting up and administration of the Millennial kingdom. So the only humans left to populate the earth will be the mortal survivors of the Tribulation.

the survivors who, can I presume worshiped the Antichrist? took the mark of the beast persecuted Jews are also the ones who go up to Jerusalem every year to worship the King, the Lord Almighty when they celebrate the feast of tabernacles?

Yes. Remember that King Jesus will rule with an iron scepter. That means He will be very strict and apply justice to the spirit of the law, rather than just the letter of the law. The "letter" refers to actual crimes committed, and the "spirit" refers to the motivation that will lead to the crimes. Jesus taught all this in Matt 5.

This will cause great resentment among the citizens of the world, but most will probably pay lip service, just to escape judgment.

Zech 14:16 Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King,
the Lord Almighty, and to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacle or my bible version says those left of all the nations

What about in Israel, some of the gentiles go there and become priests and the Jews are obviously mortals as there are also children there, were they all unbelievers at the start of the kingdom and became believers?

The Bible is silent on more than 1 resurrection for believers. Therefore, it doesn't seem that there will be any mortal believers during the Millennium.

If my questions are seeming to be totally naive its because Ive never heard this before, when I read the bible I just went with how I rightly or wrongly understood it that those who entered into the kingdom were mostly believing survivors whose offspring reject God at the end the 1000yrs which also teaches us something about sin but thats another topic I suppose.

I gave the verses that plainly say that there will be 1 resurrection for the saved and 1 for the unsaved. That resurrection is at the Second Advent and will include ALL believers from Adam forward. So there can't be any mortal believers in the Millennium.

Hope this helps.

 

[cv5]

but any post-trib problems with this problem are pre-trib problems, too.

Not so bro.

As I have said before, there are absolutely zero pre-trib "problems". It is a Scriptural closed loop. Perfect, complete and flawless with no loose ends, no omissions, no errors, no flaws, no conflicts, no paradoxes, no dilemmas. A total package 100% complete with a bow on it.

On the other hand the post-tribbers equivocate ENDLESSLY on what they don't know, are not sure about, muddling and prattling on about this possibility and that probability.

I'll tell you what......I don't see how post-tribbers sleep well at night fraught with all of that trepidation.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Not so bro.

As I have said before, there are absolutely zero pre-trib "problems".

Right. Even though:

1. there are NO verses describing Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.
2. the Bible teaches only 1 resurrection of the saved and 1 of the unsaved.
3. 1 Cor 15:23 is extremely clear that ALL believers will be resurrected "when He comes" which is the Second Advent.
4. 2 Thess 2:1 also places the resurrection at the Second Advent.

It is a Scriptural closed loop. Perfect, complete and flawless with no loose ends, no omissions, no errors, no flaws, no conflicts, no paradoxes, no dilemmas. A total package 100% complete with a bow on it.

See above. Poof!

On the other hand the post-tribbers equivocate ENDLESSLY on what they don't know, are not sure about, muddling and prattling on about this possibility and that probability.

Please point out any equivocation on my end. I have given clear verses which anyone can understand.

I'll tell you what......I don't see how post-tribbers sleep well at night fraught with all of that trepidation.

Well, I have none. Because I have read the clear verses that place the singular resurrection at the Second Advent.

Your boasts are no different than Abs.

All talk, but no evidence.

 

[cv5]

In ALL the passages about the resurrection, there is NO MENTION of Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.

Why isn't there any verse about Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven? Because He won't be doing that.

Wow. Just wow...... Somebody needs to check into the Spiritual ER ASAP.

 

[Clayman]

How do you think any of the verses you listed support your claim. You assume there are two comings of the Lord, when the scripture only speak of one more, then you put verses into the two invented 'buckets.' That's not evidence of the Bible teaching anything. It's evidence of how you try to fit scripture into an ASSUMED pre-trib theory.

The angels also come with Christ when He returns to give His church rest in II Thessalonians 1, and also to execute vengence on them that believe not... which He does when he comes to be glorified in the saints. How is that multiple comings? how do you fit that chapter with pre-trib.

It makes more sense to put all these events into one bucket since the Bible only tells us about one return of Christ. Assuming multiple returns of Christ is too big of an assumption to make without some revelation from God to back it up.

Im trying to catch up on thread by reading previous posts and working out what makes peoples brains tick, so you may have heard this all before if you have then please just ignore me.
2 thes 1 from a pre tribbers point of view is referring to the time of the tribulation (when He comes in that day) in that day is another term for the day of judgment or the tribulation, So the letter is writing from this point of view thats why in Ch 2 we are reminded that that day has not yet come. What im trying to say is picture yourself in the tribulation right now, you know in exactly 1 year the Lord will return and touch down in Israel, now read CH 1 from this viewpoint this is how pretribbers(well me anyway) read this rightly or wrongly in this context. So the coming is the Lords return not the rapture as its already happened.

Sure we read it from the context of the here and now and take comfort that the tribulations and persecutions that affect us through out the ages, but nothing like those in the future will face, yet those in the tribulation period when they meet in their underground churches will take great comfort and know 2thes very well I imagine and they will know the day and hour of His return, and they wont look to be removed from their trials and tribulations because they will know and have seen the rapture already happened and know they missed it which is why the context or comfort is in the Lords return, reward or judgment on the ungodly.

2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

 

[GaryA]

And the Second Advent not only ends the Tribulation at the battle of Armageddon, but the setting up and administration of the Millennial kingdom.

I don't want to derail the thread (it has had enough of that already) - but, I noticed this statement - and, want to suggest a "slight correction" and encourage you to look into it sometime...

~ The Second Advent does not end the Tribulation - the arrival of the Two Witnesses does.

~ The battle of Armageddon does not transpire at any point during the Tribulation - it is post-trib, post-Second-Coming, and post-Vial-6.

~ Armageddon is 'Jacob's trouble' - which is a separate 'event'; it is not the Tribulation, or [during] any part of it.


Order of events:

Tribulation ends
Two Witnesses / Trumpet Events
JESUS / Resurrection & Rapture
Wrath of God - through Vial 6
Armageddon
Vial 7

 

[Clayman]

That is correct. There is just one resurrection for all believers, which occurs at the Second Advent when Jesus returns to earth. 1 Cor 15:23 says that this singular resurrection will be for "those who belong to Him", which means ALL believers from Adam forward.

The verse also says it will be "when He comes", which is the Second Advent. And the Second Advent not only ends the Tribulation at the battle of Armageddon, but the setting up and administration of the Millennial kingdom. So the only humans left to populate the earth will be the mortal survivors of the Tribulation.


Yes. Remember that King Jesus will rule with an iron scepter. That means He will be very strict and apply justice to the spirit of the law, rather than just the letter of the law. The "letter" refers to actual crimes committed, and the "spirit" refers to the motivation that will lead to the crimes. Jesus taught all this in Matt 5.

This will cause great resentment among the citizens of the world, but most will probably pay lip service, just to escape judgment.


The Bible is silent on more than 1 resurrection for believers. Therefore, it doesn't seem that there will be any mortal believers during the Millennium.


I gave the verses that plainly say that there will be 1 resurrection for the saved and 1 for the unsaved. That resurrection is at the Second Advent and will include ALL believers from Adam forward. So there can't be any mortal believers in the Millennium.

Hope this helps.

Thanks yep it helps im not sure if all post tribbers think the same way, but Ive got something to go away and think about, Its leading to a lot of questions regarding the 1000yrs already but the thread seems a little belabored already lol maybe another thread one day.

I notice you put a lot of stock in the only one resurrection of the righteous which I dont necessarily see it so black and white for example and sorry no doubt you also have probably heard all this before so also just ignore if its a well beaten dead horse.

1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Why have the word order which means a series or succession of things used here if there is but one timing for the resurrection of believers? I mean technically you dont believe it 100% legally at the time of the Lords return anyway, the two witnesses are resurrected then caught up into heaven 3.5yrs earlier anyway so its no drama to say also of myself at least 3.5yrs preceding the two witnesses although I wont be seen by the whole world. and it still fits the context well actually it makes the context of 1Co 15:23 that every man will be made alive in a series of events or in succession of one another and still be a part of the first resurrection meaning the resurrection of believers.

Anyway I can see why you think the way you do and you can probably see why I think the way I do, so I wont belabor it

 

[cv5]

This is as silly as the posts of Absolutely.


They never do. In ALL the passages about the resurrection, there is NO MENTION of Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.

Why isn't there any verse about Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven? Because He won't be doing that.

Eph 1:20
Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

Eph 2:6
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Aaaand....here we are! We have arrived. Yep....that's us bro. Post rapture post glorification.
No doubt about it. Objectified and demonstrated most unequivocally. Purposefully with intent. To remove all doubt.

Rev 4:4
And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

Rev 5:9
And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Rev 5:10
And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

 

[GaryA]

1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Why have the word order which means a series or succession of things used here if there is but one timing for the resurrection of believers? I mean technically you dont believe it 100% legally at the time of the Lords return anyway, the two witnesses are resurrected then caught up into heaven 3.5yrs earlier anyway so its no drama to say also of myself at least 3.5yrs preceding the two witnesses although I wont be seen by the whole world. and it still fits the context well actually it makes the context of 1Co 15:23 that every man will be made alive in a series of events or in succession of one another and still be a part of the first resurrection meaning the resurrection of believers.

The verse itself defines that 'order' to be an exactly-two-item list - (1) Christ, and (2) everyone else - who are His - at His coming. In other words, all together at one time - at His coming.

It is a two-point series. One has already occurred. The other has yet to occur.

There is no third item in the list.

 

[cv5]

Thanks yep it helps im not sure if all post tribbers think the same way, but Ive got something to go away and think about, Its leading to a lot of questions regarding the 1000yrs already but the thread seems a little belabored already lol maybe another thread one day.

I notice you put a lot of stock in the only one resurrection of the righteous which I dont necessarily see it so black and white for example and sorry no doubt you also have probably heard all this before so also just ignore if its a well beaten dead horse.

1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Why have the word order which means a series or succession of things used here if there is but one timing for the resurrection of believers? I mean technically you dont believe it 100% legally at the time of the Lords return anyway, the two witnesses are resurrected then caught up into heaven 3.5yrs earlier anyway so its no drama to say also of myself at least 3.5yrs preceding the two witnesses although I wont be seen by the whole world. and it still fits the context well actually it makes the context of 1Co 15:23 that every man will be made alive in a series of events or in succession of one another and still be a part of the first resurrection meaning the resurrection of believers.

Anyway I can see why you think the way you do and you can probably see why I think the way I do, so I wont belabor it

Do yourself a favor and use the search function and find out what TheDivineWatermark has to say on this particular topic. Truly he is the master on exegeting the "first resurrection". And never....EVER....follow the lead of a post-tribber or you will end up in the weeds bro. Do you really REALLY want to know the facts on the "first resurrection". Do some homework and start below.

Search results for query: first resurrection - Christian Chat Rooms & Forums

https://christianchat.com/threads/h...ular-in-the-modern-church.201091/post-4641930

@DavidTree , "[re: resurrection] but EACH [a word meaning 'of more than two'] IN HIS OWN ORDER / RANK" (meaning, there is an ORDER / RANK to it, not that there remains only ONE at ONE SINGULAR point in time);

--"the resurrection the first [ADJECTIVE; G4413]" (Rev20:6) is not saying "this is the first time saints are being resurrected"--the "2W" will have been resurrected from the dead (and ascend up into Heaven) at the "6th Trumpet [events] / 2nd Woe," at a time-slot ENTIRELY DISTINCT from when all OTHER saints will be "resurrected"--But YOUR "post-trib rapture" viewpoint cannot account for this point.
What say you, to this??

https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4542961

--Jesus ascended TWICE;

--the FIRST time was ON FIRSTFRUIT / His Resurrection Day after He told MM "I [ACTIVE] ASCEND" (John 20:17), and told her to "GO unto my brethren and SAY UNTO them" (Fulfilling Lev23:10-12 / 1Cor15:20; And no one SAW Him "ascend" at THIS one; It was just "GO to my brethren and SAY UNTO them...", i.e. VERBAL TESTIMONY *ONLY* ! [later the text says, "[Jesus] UPBRAIDED them [the 11] with their UNBELIEF and hardness of heart, because they BELIEVED NOT them which HAD SEEN Him after He was risen" Mk16:14 [i.e. who had TOLD them / VERBAL TESTIMONY *only*... engaging a response of "faith," sight-unseen, so to speak [BELIEVING the VERBAL (WORDS) TESTIMONY])

--the SECOND time was some "40 days" LATER, in Acts 1, which was VISIBLE (and will be how He "shall SO COME in LIKE MANNER as ye have SEEN HIM going [/traveling] INTO Heaven"--that is, at His Rev19 "RETURN" to the earth / "OPENLY MANIFEST" [/'MANIFESTATION of His presence' 2Th2:8b] point-in-time, when "EVERY EYE shall SEE Him" [which is NOT the 2Th2:1 point in time, BY CONTRAST ])
[in my view... (the pre-trib viewpoint)... this ^ PATTERN holds true (re: the "future" events)]

https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4541581

We've been over this lesson in many past posts:

--Verse 24 says, "THEN [G1534 - eita] the end" (the word "cometh / comes" is not in the Greek text, here);

--this "THEN [G1534 - eita]" word is a "SEQUENCE" word only, with NO time-element attached (unlike another "then" word, "then [tote - G5119]" like is used in 2Th2:8a);

-- https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_corinthians/15-24.htm ;

--so *this* text is not conveying "THEN *immediately* the end," but rather "THEN *sequentially* the end";

--the remainder of the context tells what must take place within that time-frame intervening ("FOR He must reign TILL...");

--and that is the EXACT "SEQUENCE" that Isaiah 24:21-22[23] shows, where the FIRST of TWO "PUNISH" words of that text PARALLELS the Revelation 19:19,21 / 16:14-16 / 20:5 passage and its timing, i.e. His Second Coming to the earth / Armageddon;

--then Isaiah 24:21-22[23]'s SECOND "PUNISH" word of that text clearly comes after an intervening "time-period" which is identical to the SEQUENCE issues between Rev19 & 20;

...not to mention is identical to the SEQUENCE issues in our present text, 1Cor15:24-28;

...not to mention is identical to the Daniel 7:25,27 text, where v.27 (after a specific time-period in v.25 / 2nd half of trib) says, "the greatness of the kingdom UNDER the whole heaven shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High" which is also told of in v.22 "and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom"... where v.22's wording corresponds precisely with Revelation 20:4a "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them"

--EACH of these passages agree regarding the SEQUENCE issues

--and in Zech14:8 it says "And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: IN SUMMER AND IN WINTER SHALL IT BE." Several verses using the phrase "IN THAT DAY" indicating "a time-period" (i.e. "an era"), rather than meaning merely "a singular 24-hr day";

...and vv.11-12 are showing a CONTRAST between those who will LIVE (and exist following all "destruction") and those who will NOT live (those who "fought against Jerusalem"--SAME AS IN the Rev19:21 text I supplied above), where those who go on to LIVE in that time-period are given the instructions found in vv.16-19 (re: keeping the feast of Tabernacles... in Jerusalem... "from year to year" i.e yearly)

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
This text is governed by the "WE"... (speaking ONLY of "believers" here)

...so that, this text using the phrase "the dead" is not speaking of "the dead [/unsaved / 'lost' from all time periods]"... this CONTEXT is speaking ONLY of the "WE" (the SAVED / BELIEVERS)

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
As in the aforementioned paragraph I put, this text is governed by the "WE" and also (here ^ ) by the word "THIS"... "THIS corruptible" and "THIS mortal" (speaking only of: "the DEAD IN Christ" [the "WE" of this wider context]; and the "we which are ALIVE and remain" [also the "WE" of this wider context]--meaning, NONE of the "UNsaved / UNbelievers / LOST" are being spoken of in THIS CONTEXT)

 

[presidente]

Not so bro.

As I have said before, there are absolutely zero pre-trib "problems". It is a Scriptural closed loop. Perfect, complete and flawless with no loose ends, no omissions, no errors, no flaws, no conflicts, no paradoxes, no dilemmas. A total package 100% complete with a bow on it.

The problem is scripture doesn't teach it. The 'coming' of the Lord, the parousia, is treated in the singular as one event. The sequence is laid out in Matthew 24 and Revelation, with the coming of the Son of Man, and the 'King of Kings and Lord of Lords' at the end of a time of tribulation. Paul sets both the resurrection and rapture on the one hand, and the destruction of 'that wicked' in the man of sin passage at the coming of the Lord.

Pre-trib rests on assuming pre-trib and reading pre-trib into various passages, and a number of allegorical interpretations and various other loose interpretations.

On the other hand the post-tribbers equivocate ENDLESSLY on what they don't know, are not sure about, muddling and prattling on about this possibility and that probability.

Most people do not know all the Bible. That is probably more true of pre-tribbers in the US, since they tend to be the type of evangelical who just repeats what they hear from the pulpit on eschatology instead of studying it out and seeing the problems with pretrib.

I'll tell you what......I don't see how post-tribbers sleep well at night fraught with all of that trepidation.

Peace is a fruit of the Spirit. Christ said, that "in this world ye shall have tribulation". But he added, 'Be of good cheer, for I have overcome the world."

 

[presidente]

Im trying to catch up on thread by reading previous posts and working out what makes peoples brains tick, so you may have heard this all before if you have then please just ignore me.
2 thes 1 from a pre tribbers point of view is referring to the time of the tribulation (when He comes in that day) in that day is another term for the day of judgment or the tribulation, So the letter is writing from this point of view thats why in Ch 2 we are reminded that that day has not yet come. What im trying to say is picture yourself in the tribulation right now, you know in exactly 1 year the Lord will return and touch down in Israel, now read CH 1 from this viewpoint this is how pretribbers(well me anyway) read this rightly or wrongly in this context. So the coming is the Lords return not the rapture as its already happened.

Don't you find a detailed reading of the passage difficult to reconcile with pre-trib. The church receives rest at the Lord's appearing, with his mighty angels, executing judgment on them that know not God, when he comes to be glorified in the saints, etc. So He's here, doing all this stuff. There is no reference to Jesus coming down, getting the saints, and not being here. But while he's here giving the ___church___ rest, he does this stuff to the unbelievers... and at the same time he's here to be glorified in the saints.

Sure we read it from the context of the here and now and take comfort that the tribulations and persecutions that affect us through out the ages, but nothing like those in the future will face, yet those in the tribulation period when they meet in their underground churches will take great comfort and know 2thes very well I imagine and they will know the day and hour of His return, and they wont look to be removed from their trials and tribulations because they will know and have seen the rapture already happened and know they missed it which is why the context or comfort is in the Lords return, reward or judgment on the ungodly.

Paul calls the Lord's coming or return the 'parousia' in Greek. I Thessalonians 4 tells us that the rapture happens at the parousia. But the man of sin (or 'that wicked' is the term used) is destroyed at the brightness of His parousia also. How do you get away from the idea that the rapture happens at the second coming?

What really got me, growing up pre-trib and having memorized Matthew was when I decided to look up this pre-trib stuff and really see what it said in the Bible, Revelation didn't say there was a rapture before all this alarming stuff started happening. I just couldn't find a pre-trib rapture anywhere in the Bible. Instead, it's loose arguments like 'not appointed unto wrath' (as if the tribulational saints were supposedly appointed unto wrath instead of salvation.) Or it's an allegorical interpretation of John being told 'come up hither.' Or it's some kind of allegorical interpretation of the feasts. A lot of the evidence for pretrib just assumes pretrib and presents __a way__ a passage could be interpreted to align with pre-trib.

The big question is how any believer could come away from reading I Thessalonians and think there were two second comings... or II Thessalonians, or Revelation, or Matthew, or Luke, or any of these books. It's not a case of seeing the Bible teach pre-trib and seeing how everything fits. It's assuming pre-trib them fitting passages to that theory.

Where is the pre-trib rapture taught in the Bible? Where do you see it?

 

[GaryA]

It's assuming pre-trib them fitting passages to that theory.

It's assuming pre-trib and then force-fitting passages to that theory.

There - fixed it.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
In ALL the passages about the resurrection, there is NO MENTION of Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.

Why isn't there any verse about Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven? Because He won't be doing that.

Wow. Just wow...... Somebody needs to check into the Spiritual ER ASAP.

Kind of a lame response to being told you have NO verses showing Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven. Maybe you're just dumbfounded about that!

If there WERE any such verses, I'm sure you would have shared them. But you know you don't have any.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I don't want to derail the thread (it has had enough of that already) - but, I noticed this statement - and, want to suggest a "slight correction" and encourage you to look into it sometime...

~ The Second Advent does not end the Tribulation - the arrival of the Two Witnesses does.

I don't see it. How did you come to that conclusion. btw, the arrival of the 2 begins in the first half of the Trib.

~ The battle of Armageddon does not transpire at any point during the Tribulation - it is post-trib, post-Second-Coming, and post-Vial-6.

That's what I noted; battle of Armageddon is at the end of the Trib and Jesus ends the Trib by ending the battle.

~ Armageddon is 'Jacob's trouble' - which is a separate 'event'; it is not the Tribulation, or [during] any part of it.

Where do you get that? Jacob's trouble is the Tribulation.

Order of events:

Tribulation ends
Two Witnesses / Trumpet Events
JESUS / Resurrection & Rapture
Wrath of God - through Vial 6
Armageddon
Vial 7

God's wrath IS in the Tribulation. It's all laid out in Revelation.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I notice you put a lot of stock in the only one resurrection of the righteous which I dont necessarily see it so black and white for example and sorry no doubt you also have probably heard all this before so also just ignore if its a well beaten dead horse.

1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Why have the word order which means a series or succession of things used here if there is but one timing for the resurrection of believers?

Just to establish that no one gets a glorified body BEFORE Jesus. He was the first to receive a glorified human body. So all the accounts of people being raised from the dead in both OT and the gospels didn't get a glorified body.

So 1 Cor 15:23 is perspective. Jesus first, and then, when He comes, everyone else. Seems real clear to me.

I mean technically you dont believe it 100% legally at the time of the Lords return anyway, the two witnesses are resurrected then caught up into heaven 3.5yrs earlier anyway so its no drama to say also of myself at least 3.5yrs preceding the two witnesses although I wont be seen by the whole world. and it still fits the context well actually it makes the context of 1Co 15:23 that every man will be made alive in a series of events or in succession of one another and still be a part of the first resurrection meaning the resurrection of believers.

No, the 2 witnesses will experience physical death the FIRST and only time when they are killed. Their being raised to life is the same as all others who were raised to life before Jesus received His glorified body. They are still waiting for the resurrection where they will receive a glorified body.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
This is as silly as the posts of Absolutely.

They never do. In ALL the passages about the resurrection, there is NO MENTION of Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.

Why isn't there any verse about Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven? Because He won't be doing that.

Eph 1:20
Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

Eph 2:6
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Aaaand....here we are! We have arrived. Yep....that's us bro. Post rapture post glorification.
No doubt about it. Objectified and demonstrated most unequivocally. Purposefully with intent. To remove all doubt.

Rev 4:4
And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

Rev 5:9
And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Rev 5:10
And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Like I said, there are NO verses showing Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven. Either in the context of the singular resurrection or in any other context.

But, keep trying. Maybe you will finally realize that there is no glorified trip to heaven.

The singular resurrection will occur when Jesus returns to earth as King of kings at the Second Advent. All believers will be given glorified bodies and reign with Christ on earth for 1,000 years over the mortal survivors of the Trib.

This means that those "who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord" will NEVER see the 3rd heaven.

 

[presidente]

God's wrath IS in the Tribulation. It's all laid out in Revelation.

Can you prove this from the Bible?

Are you saying the translators got it wrong? If wrath is tribulation, why do the translators translate it as 'wrath' rather than 'tribulation.'

Maybe you should look up 'wrath' in the dictionary. It has to do with extreme anger, not 'tribulation', 'trials', or 'difficult times.'

The book of Revelation mentions saints who overcome the Devil by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony. It does not say that they are objects of God's wrath.

Here we see that their are individuals who shall 'drink of the wine of the wrath of God.

Revelation 14:9-11
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: