Thief in the Night-- Pretrib or Second Coming?

[presidente]

I'm just saying that the sequence / timing issues AGREE with the sequence Paul also lays out in 2Th2 (and repeats 3x in that chpt): ONE THING "FIRST," before the DOTL can indeed [be rightly said to] "[be] present" (that was the false claim--that it "is present / already here"). And that ONE THING he says is to be "FIRST" is the very Subject Paul himself is bringing to the table, especially in relation to the Subject of the "false claim" matter he speaks of in v.2 (which is not the same thing as Paul's Subject: our rapture).

[1] Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
[2] That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
[3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;


The day of Christ will not take place until there is a falling away and the man of sin is revealed. Paul had just described the day in the previous chapter.


[4] So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
[5] Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
[6] Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
[7] And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
[8] In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
[9] Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
[10] When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

As a non-pre-tribber I don't have to reinterpret this to be about two events, or turn the 'coming of the Lord' into a long seven year period of time where Jesus actually goes back to heaven with the saints for seven years. That's a loose allegorical interpretation kind of like preterists saying the coming of the Lord is actually Jerusalem being destroyed.

 

[presidente]

cv5 said:
The thing is bro.....the pre-trib rapture doctrine is the eschatological component (related quintessentially and uniquely to the Church alone) that never contradicts Scripture. Really its breathtaking in its all-encompassing perfection.

Post-trib is a bull in the china shop. Daniel's seventy weeks gets trampled, as do the words of Jesus, Paul, and pretty much everything else.

That's a very good word for all of the posts on the theory of pre-trib rapture: puffery. There is NO substance at all.

I keep asking for the verse that describes Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven but they just ignore it. Because they know.

But cv5 is very capable of posting how great pre-trib is, without any contradictions.

What pre-trib posters have been unable to show is scripture to justify the idea that:
1. The second coming refers to two events or a seven-year long period of time.
2. Jesus taking the church back to heaven for seven years.

Those come to mind right now. TheDivineWater mark will go to great lengths to put together an argument for how he can view II Thessalonians 1 as an extended period of time. But then you end up with Christ's appearing being a seven year period-- akin to preterists making the coming of the Son of man out to be the destruction of Jerusalem in terms of allegory, but probably even less convincing.

But why do they go for such a strained interpretation of II Thessalonians 1 if they don't have scripture to justify the position in the first place? Producing a strained interpretation to try to do away with problem passages isn't evidence for the position in the first place.

I notice people can put away a tapestry of allegorical interpretations of scriptures put together a certain way as if it supports their eschatology. I've seen a full preterist do this, too. When there is a heavy 'human element' in ones allegorical interpretation, one can make a system that looks like a beautiful mosaic in ones own eyes.

 

[presidente]

@TheDivineWatermark

I am still waiting on the questions I asked twice. Have you studied the Greek language?

Do you have enough experience reading Greek texts to justify your assertions about the differences between eita and epeita?

Have you studied commentaries about the differences between eita and epeita prior to your post on it that you are sharing your knowledge from?

Did your commentary on these issues just reflect basically guesswork of what you are convinced the passage means?

 

[FreeGrace2]

But cv5 is very capable of posting how great pre-trib is, without any contradictions.

No kidding!! And...without ANY evidence either.

What pre-trib posters have been unable to show is scripture to justify the idea that:
1. The second coming refers to two events or a seven-year long period of time.
2. Jesus taking the church back to heaven for seven years.

Right! Which is the cornerstone of their theory.

Those come to mind right now. TheDivineWater mark will go to great lengths to put together an argument for how he can view II Thessalonians 1 as an extended period of time. But then you end up with Christ's appearing being a seven year period-- akin to preterists making the coming of the Son of man out to be the destruction of Jerusalem in terms of allegory, but probably even less convincing.

But why do they go for such a strained interpretation of II Thessalonians 1 if they don't have scripture to justify the position in the first place?

Even worse, 2 Thess 2:1 plainly says the Second Advent (the coming of the Lord) is when the 'rapture' (gathering up of living believers) is.

Producing a strained interpretation to try to do away with problem passages isn't evidence for the position in the first place.

I notice people can put away a tapestry of allegorical interpretations of scriptures put together a certain way as if it supports their eschatology. I've seen a full preterist do this, too. When there is a heavy 'human element' in ones allegorical interpretation, one can make a system that looks like a beautiful mosaic in ones own eyes.

I have found that the Berean study method to be excellent. I plug the poster's/pastor's/etc name into where Paul's name is in Acts 17:11 and see if what they SAY is what the Bible SAYS.

 

[presidente]

You're tending to do what FreeGrace2 also tends to do with this verse, and that is, mis-quote a very important word--sometimes even leaving it out altogether when quoting this verse as your support (...as well as leaving off the ending phrase).

You think it is saying, "until the TIME of restoration of all things." (as though it occurs at a moment-in-time / point-in-time). But it says, "until the TIMES of restoration of all things having been spoken by the mouth of His prophets from the age"... and that INCLUDES Israel once again being called by God "My people" (or, "My people, Israel"--whereas presently they are "Lo Ammi" / "not My people") which, as I've stated in past threads, starts at some point WITHIN the Tribulation period (not commencing upon its conclusion, as many suppose).

--"the TIMES of restoration" involves more than merely the point in time of His Second Coming to the earth; it also involves the "blindness [/a hardening]... UNTIL" (and again, that "UNTIL" thing is not referring to the point in time of His Second Coming to the earth / Return... it's too late at that point!!)

Fair enough, I did not mention kronon, but how does that change anything?

If Jesus will remain in heaven until the time of restoration of all things-- you still have seven years of destruction and outpouring of judgement prior to Jesus return (even though you already have Jesus returning in your eschatology) included in the time of restoration of all things.

There is also the issue of Jesus coming down partway from heaven, and then going back up into heaven.

But wait a minute-- there is another problem. In Biblical terminology, the birds are in the heaven, and the sun in the heaven. We also read about the clouds of heaven.

And there
Mark 14:62
And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

So those clouds are still in heaven, which includes what we call 'sky.'

But then I Thessalonians 4 says
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

So Jesus is still in heaven. Pre-trib uses verses about Jesus' coming, but would have Him stay up in the sky... still heaven territory. While this verse in the rapture passage says that he comes down out of heaven. So that part about descending from heaven doesn't match what pre-tribbers say, since the theory still has Him in what is identified in scripture as heaven, but scripture has Him descending from heaven and describe it as His coming.

So basically, the rapture passage tells of Jesus actually leaving heaven to return.

 

[cv5]

[1] Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
[2] That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

So post-tribbers think that these Thessalonian new believers are "shaken" and "troubled" because they were taught a post-trib rapture (assuring that the horrors of the tribulation would come upon them) by Paul......and now they are freaked out because they think they are in the tribulation, which Paul disputes and has to correct them. Do I have that right...?

 

[cv5]

FreeGrace2 said:
You haven't proven your claims. They are only opinions.

If you are such an expert on a pre-trib rapture, why can't you quote ANY verse that shows Jesus clearly taking resurrected, glorified believers to heaven?

All you guys seem able to do is make totally senseless comments when asked for evidence for your view.

Why would anyone enjoy the Tribulation? You seem to think my view is based on WANTING to go through it. That would be nuts, and any sane person would agree with me on that.

So you can save all your silly, petty, etc snarks for someone else.

I have given solid proof of ONE resurrection for the saved and ONE for the unsaved, which you cannot refute. All you can do is disagree, but so what? Without any evidence for your disagreement, you have nothing.

I have given solid proof that the ONE resurrection of the saved is "when He comes", and the word "comes/coming" in relation to the Lord can ONLY refer to the Second Advent, since the OT prophesied about the 2 comings of the Messiah.

So, I have proven from Scripture that the ONE resurrection of the saved will be at the Second Advent when King Jesus comes back to earth to reign in His Millennial kingdom.

And you have no evidence at all for your theory.

Bro....if Paul had taught a post-trib rapture, 2 Thes 2 would not even exist.

 

[presidente]

So post-tribbers think that these Thessalonian new believers are "shaken" and "troubled" because they were taught a post-trib rapture (assuring that the horrors of the tribulation would come upon them) by Paul......and now they are freaked out because they think they are in the tribulation, which Paul disputes and has to correct them. Do I have that right...?

Your misattribution of your imaginative idea to me deserve that face-palm right there.

The Thessalonians had encountered some teaching floating around that we don't know about, but I am pretty sure it was not that one. The pre-trib teaching you follow originated in the 1830's or so and there is no evidence that it was a teaching of the original church. I read a quote attributed to Pseudo-Ephraim where he seemed a bit confused and said something that aligned with pre-trib, but when I looked up the document attributed to him, the quote was not what I read in the pre-trib document. And the list of other quotes fit with more conventional premil interpretations and were not evidence for pretrib. If you have some evidence for pre-trib prior to 1830, feel free to share it.

As far as the first century goes, we do know there were individuals who taught that the resurrection had already occurred. Paul addressed that in one of his epistles. He delivered a man by the same name as one of these teachers over to Satan. It could be that someone was teaching that the rapture/resurrection event they were waiting for had already occurred, some kind of allegorical interpretation perhaps.

 

[cv5]

but I am pretty sure

You go right ahead and be "pretty sure" about the post-trib rapture bro.

Whereas I shall remain 100% sure of the pre-trib rapture.

Still waiting for your exorbitant florid scholarly fully-featured astute "opinion" on the reason for the sudden arrival of, the nature, origin and identity of the 24 Elders of Revelation 4 & 5.

 

[DavidTree]

You go right ahead and be "pretty sure" about the post-trib rapture bro.

Whereas I shall remain 100% sure of the pre-trib rapture.

Still waiting for your exorbitant florid scholarly fully-featured astute "opinion" on the reason for the sudden arrival of, the nature, origin and identity of the 24 Elders of Revelation 4 & 5.

FIVE Eternal Truths that no one is able to refute from Scripture

#1 - There is not one pre-trib rapture verse in the ENTIRE SCRIPTURES
#2 - 1 Thessalonians & 2 Thessalonians
#3 - Proverbs 30:5-6, , Revelation 20:17-21
#4 - Adonai Yeshua HaMoshiach spoke only of a Post Tribulation Second Coming in accordance with the Prophets = Matt ch24
#5 - Pre-Trib Rapture is a proven lie from the Serpent that is completely refuted and exposed in Scripture from Genesis thru Revelation.

Feast on Truth of the Word
Abandon religious error
Walk in Liberty and Truth in the Holy Spirit

 

[FreeGrace2]

So post-tribbers think that these Thessalonian new believers are "shaken" and "troubled" because they were taught a post-trib rapture (assuring that the horrors of the tribulation would come upon them) by Paul......and now they are freaked out because they think they are in the tribulation, which Paul disputes and has to correct them. Do I have that right...?

I totally disagree. I've never thought that. In fact, 2 Thess 2:1-3 plainly tells us WHEN the "coming of the Lord and "our being gathered to Him" will occur. Listen in:

3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day (when Jesus comes back to earth) will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

So, we clearly read that Jesus' coming "will not come" UNTIL 2 things occur;

1. apostasy
2. man of lawlessness is revealed, that being the "anti-christ" or beast #1.

No return UNTIL the antichrist is revealed. And Jesus doesn't return until the END of the Tribulation.

This refutes any sense of a pre-trib anything.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
You haven't proven your claims. They are only opinions.

If you are such an expert on a pre-trib rapture, why can't you quote ANY verse that shows Jesus clearly taking resurrected, glorified believers to heaven?

All you guys seem able to do is make totally senseless comments when asked for evidence for your view.

Why would anyone enjoy the Tribulation? You seem to think my view is based on WANTING to go through it. That would be nuts, and any sane person would agree with me on that.

So you can save all your silly, petty, etc snarks for someone else.

I have given solid proof of ONE resurrection for the saved and ONE for the unsaved, which you cannot refute. All you can do is disagree, but so what? Without any evidence for your disagreement, you have nothing.

I have given solid proof that the ONE resurrection of the saved is "when He comes", and the word "comes/coming" in relation to the Lord can ONLY refer to the Second Advent, since the OT prophesied about the 2 comings of the Messiah.

So, I have proven from Scripture that the ONE resurrection of the saved will be at the Second Advent when King Jesus comes back to earth to reign in His Millennial kingdom.

And you have no evidence at all for your theory.

Bro....if Paul had taught a post-trib rapture, 2 Thes 2 would not even exist.

Odd comment indeed, since 2 Thess 2:1-3 PROVES a post-trib return of King Jesus.

See post #531 for details.

All you have are your emotions and emojis. You have no facts, no evidence. I call it zip.

Now, go ahead and slap those eyeballs.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You go right ahead and be "pretty sure" about the post-trib rapture bro.

Whereas I shall remain 100% sure of the pre-trib rapture.

Here's the deal, "BRO".

If we are wrong, we simply miss the Tribulation.

If YOU are wrong, your entire faith in what you think the Bible says will be shaken to its very foundation.

Meditate on that for a while.

You guys STILL have NO verse that says what you keep saying.

 

[cv5]

I totally disagree. I've never thought that. In fact, 2 Thess 2:1-3 plainly tells us WHEN the "coming of the Lord and "our being gathered to Him" will occur. Listen in:

Oh....so you are also saying that these Thessalonians are "shaken" and "troubled" because of "our being gathered to Him"?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Oh....so you are also saying that these Thessalonians are "shaken" and "troubled" because of "our being gathered to Him"?

Thank you for your probably unwitting admission that you do not read or comprehend very well. Go back and actually read my post.

And continue to slap those eyeballs.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

The thing is bro.....the pre-trib rapture doctrine is the eschatological component (related quintessentially and uniquely to the Church alone) that never contradicts Scripture. Really its breathtaking in its all-encompassing perfection.

Post-trib is a bull in the china shop. Daniel's seventy weeks gets trampled, as do the words of Jesus, Paul, and pretty much everything else.

I pity those who fail to see/grasp/appreciate the Biblical grandeur and perfection of the pre-trib rapture. I'll tell you what. I for one AM NOT anticipating the tribulation horrors as a part of my blessed hope.

"as your faith is so be it unto you" is not a good deal as far at those post-tribbers who hope for the tribulation to begin bro.

There isn't a church in pretrib. There is an elite "church age" group. An incomplete institution.
Hardly something that could be referred to as perfection.

 

[cv5]

There is an elite "church age" group.

Hhhhmmm.......are these who you think constitute the 24 Elders of Rev 4 & 5? Or just plain old-fashioned Christians?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

In fact, 2 Thess 2:1-3 plainly tells us WHEN the "coming of the Lord and "our being gathered to Him" will occur. Listen in:
3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day (when Jesus comes back to earth) will not come until

Verse 3a's "that day" refers rather to the Subject that the "false claim" of verse 2 was about--which your quote reflects the fact that you've ignored v.2 because you are incorrectly equating Paul's Subject of v.1 (our Rapture event) with the Subject of the false claim in v.2--which false claim was NOT about Christ's Second Coming to the earth, when Jesus comes back to earth. "That day" (v.3a) is not referencing v.1... it's speaking of the immediately preceding verse's false claim "purporting that the day of the Lord is present" which is a specific time-period (not that Christ's Second Coming to the earth is present--they were not "claiming" or purporting that)

 

[cv5]

Verse 3a's "that day" refers rather to the Subject that the "false claim" of verse 2 was about--which your quote reflects the fact that you've ignored v.2 because you are incorrectly equating Paul's Subject of v.1 (our Rapture event) with the Subject of the false claim in v.2--which false claim was NOT about Christ's Second Coming to the earth, when Jesus comes back to earth. "That day" (v.3a) is not referencing v.1... it's speaking of the immediately preceding verse's false claim "purporting that the day of the Lord is present" which is a specific time-period (not that Christ's Second Coming to the earth is present--they were not "claiming" or purporting that)

I think you have clarified that error of theirs at least several hundreds of times by now.

 

[Clayman]

[1] Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
[2] That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
[3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;


The day of Christ will not take place until there is a falling away and the man of sin is revealed. Paul had just described the day in the previous chapter.

This is how I read your proof verses, which are also my proof verses... let me paraphrase

[1] Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
[2] That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the 7yrs of tribulation is happening right now.
[3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for the 7yrs of tribulation and wrath shall not start, except there come a departure(rapture) first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

The Thessalonians and Christians throughout the ages like us undergo various trials and tribulations and even today some make the assumption that we may actually be in the day of the Lord the seventieth week of Daniel which we know we are not.

And how do we know we are not, there are two reasons given to us that we may know this is not the case.

1. the departure comes first. the church has not been caught up to the clouds so the fact we have not departed yet means the week has not commenced yet.
2. The man of sin has not been revealed, the Antichrist will sign a peace treaty with Israel and this will mark the beginning of the week.

Of course all the post tribbers out there maybe rolling their eyes and saying the word departure means apostasia or some some word which means apostasy or falling away and its the departing from the faith that must happen first.

The problem I have in swallowing that pill, is that apostasy or false Christendom has always existed so it cannot be the point.
Secondly and thirdly if it means as the context indicates that all Christendom will depart or fall away from the faith it means we can lose our salvation, and what I find more strange is it will mean there is not one believer on earth as they will have left the faith when the seventieth week of Daniel begins. Funnily enough in a round about way its the same as the church departing in the rapture so I can understand why post tribbers over read into this.

[4] So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
[5] Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
[6] Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
[7] And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
[8] In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
[9] Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
[10] When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

As a non-pre-tribber I don't have to reinterpret this to be about two events, or turn the 'coming of the Lord' into a long seven year period of time where Jesus actually goes back to heaven with the saints for seven years. That's a loose allegorical interpretation kind of like preterists saying the coming of the Lord is actually Jerusalem being destroyed.

As a non-pre-tribber you dont see more than one gathering of Gods people, which is fair enough I dont think the pharisees or even the disciples could see or understand the two comings of the Lord until after and the mystery which was also later explained in the epistles. If people dont see more than one gathering it leads to more problems from my point of view, like that would then mean its the goats entering the millennial kingdom not the sheep.