Thief in the Night-- Pretrib or Second Coming?

TheDivineWatermark · Oct 9, 2022

cv5 said:

I can see where you're coming from.

My view is that it likely pertains to the "144,000" (FOLLOWING "our Rapture," of course)...of whom Paul is a "TYPE"; and not necessarily at the point in time of His Second Coming to the earth (which I see in Scripture, as being too late by that point... rather, would refer to some point prior to His "return" to the earth--while He is still up in heaven [similarly to Paul's experience on the Damascus road, where that word "appear [passive]" is also used, re: Jesus...]--similar to what Matthew 23:39 is conveying, at least, time-wise...)

cv5 · Oct 9, 2022

TheDivineWatermark said:

Do you think that Paul wrote Hebrews? Seems to be the case IMO.

Evmur · Oct 9, 2022

presidente said:

nah ah
one before God's wrath and one after

The Tribulation and God's wrath are two clear different events.

I'm looking at Matthew 24.9.
After speaking about wars and rumours of war being the beginning of sorrows the prophecy takes a turn

9. then shall they deliver you up unto tribulation [oh] and shall kill you and you shall be hated of all nations for My name's sake.

This is the Great Tribulation, the great end times persecution.

The Rapture is not the next great event on planet earth. This end times persecution is and the church is not ready for it.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 9, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:
By all means.

Well, think about this, Mr pernickity. In the FINAL resurrection, ALL of them are going to the GWT judgment, and THEN into the LOF. So, it's not real hard to figure out.

Evmur said:

I KNOW how they will be judged. Maybe you need to read all of Rev 20 and then you'd know too.

No, He doesn't. But your reading of Scripture does seem "so careless".

FreeGrace2 · Oct 9, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:
Since you've seen the 3 verses that speak of A resurrection of the saved and A resurrection of the unsaved, we know there will
I said (in past threads) that word "appear [passive]" (re: Jesus) is used 10x of Him (out of over 600x that word is used), and that in 5 of those verses it's about what He did AFTER His resurrection (in those "40 days" He was with His disciples, and only THEM seeing Him--not unbelievers / unsaved persons), the other 5 of those verses about when He "appeared" unto Paul from His position UP IN HEAVEN.

TheDivineWatermark said:

Let's just put your "definite article" thing to rest, right now.

In the Bible there are NO uses of "resurrections". None. Consider this statement: The Bible only speaks of resurrection in the SINGULAR.

There. I left out the definite article and still communicated the FACT that there is only ONE of them.

FreeGrace2 said:
Jesus' appearance before Paul on the road wasn't prophesied so is not a "coming".

Many pre-tribbers claim there are multiple comings and point to all of the non prophesied ones as evidence.

FreeGrace2 said:
Since you've seen the 3 verses that speak of A resurrection of the saved and A resurrection of the unsaved, we know there will

Means nothing regarding the TWO OT prophecies about Jesus coming to earth.

Right. Labels like "Trinity". So what? The OT prophesied about ONLY TWO advents of the Lord. Call them what you want.

Again, you've made no point. The Bible is clear about the TWO times Jesus comes to earth prophetically:

1. as a baby to become the Suffering Servant
2. as the King of kings.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 9, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:
btw, your comments about the definite article are irrelevant since the word itself is NEVER in the plural.

TheDivineWatermark said:

We're done here with that dead horse. The FACT is that it is ALWAYS used in the singular. That's all you need to know to determine how many separate events known as resurrection there are. Just one.

[QUOET]Again, read a couple of those verses you've said "proves" your point, noting the ones that do not have the "definite article" ('the'), and read it without the non-existent "article" ('a'), and see if you think it still says / means "THE ONE AND ONLY [resurrection of the saved]..." (it doesn't).[/QUOTE]
Quit beating your dead horse. The Bible only speaks of resurrection in the singular. There. I've said it again, with the definite article to show you that the definite article isn't needed anyway.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 9, 2022

cv5 said:

Would you kindly STOP this dishonest misrepresentation of what I have said?

I never said what you are trying to force on me as mine. I said that those "who are alive and remain" at the resurrection will never see heaven. And I stand by that fact.

No, wrong again. I never said "no believer". I said the living believers when Jesus comes back to resurrect all believers.

Because Jesus never goes back to heaven.

So, since you disagree with everything I post, your assignment is to prove me wrong by showing any verse that has Jesus going back to heaven after resurrection of believers.

And you KNOW that you can't do that.

cv5 · Oct 9, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:

OK bro. So you are saying that no believers after the resurrection will ever see heaven. Ever again. Ever. For eternity. Got it.

That is exactly what I said here:

"Right. No believer (RESURRECTED BELIEVER) makes it to heaven. Just a resurrection, a quick levitation to 35,000 ft then plunked back down to terra firma."

Of course I disagree with your assertions. Which you already know.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 9, 2022

cv5 said:

The Bible is clear. There will be NO trips to heaven for believers in glorified bodies. Unless you have been holding back a verse.

What you now say in green isn't what your posts are claiming. Only when including "after the singular resurrection" makes the context clear. You weren't doing that.

Prove to me that Jesus WILL take glorified and resurrected believers to heaven.

Just one verse saying that will suffice. But so far, you've NOT done that.

Your disagreement is WITHOUT evidence.

cv5 · Oct 9, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:

Bro...take my word for it. What you posit is what I understand full well and responded in kind.

Regards
cv5

FreeGrace2 · Oct 9, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:
The Bible is clear. There will be NO trips to heaven for believers in glorified bodies. Unless you have been holding back a verse.

What you now say in green isn't what your posts are claiming. Only when including "after the singular resurrection" makes the context clear. You weren't doing that.

Prove to me that Jesus WILL take glorified and resurrected believers to heaven.

Just one verse saying that will suffice. But so far, you've NOT done that.

Your disagreement is WITHOUT evidence.

cv5 said:

Read my post, bud. And you have no answer to your views. No evidence at all. Just silly small quips.

You can't even show me Jesus taking anyone to heaven in a glorified body.

Yet, you STILL think He will do that? On WHAT basis? Your wish list?

Evmur · Oct 9, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:

I go to prepare a place for you, I will take you to Myself that where I am you might be also.

... He wasn't going to Jerusalem

You are in the same mindset the Jews were in. when Messiah comes He will save us and kill everybody else.

He will reign from Jerusalem and the rest of mankind will have the opportunity to come in

cv5 · Oct 9, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:

This is Jesus" SECOND ascension. Evidently there was no barrier whatsoever in travelling from heaven to earth.....and back again. We really do not know HOW MANY elevator trips there were. New glorified bodies have that capacity evidently.

Act 1:9
And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

Rev 11:12
And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

Rev 21:2
And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 9, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:
The Bible is clear. There will be NO trips to heaven for believers in glorified bodies. Unless you have been holding back a verse.

Evmur said:

You aren't even close to what my mindset is. All you have are presumptions, and they are wrong.

OK, you think John 14:1-3 is about a rapture. It's YOUR own mindset that need RE-setting.

1 “Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God ; believe also in me.
2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

v.1 is an appeal for faith in the Father and Son.
In v.2 Jesus assures the 11 that they WILL be in heaven. After what happened with Judas, they probably didn't even trust themselves.

Also, consider that Jesus hadn't died yet. And after His death, He DID ascend to heaven, just as He promised. And He DID prepare a place for each of them. In fact, that's where all 11 are right now. So Jesus kept His promise. And it had nothing to do with joining their souls with resurrected bodies and then going back to heaven.

In v.3 Jesus is promising the 11 that He will come back and take them to Himself. Nearly the same wording as Paul wrote in 1 Thess 4:17 - After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

The bolded sentence at the end is nearly the same as v.3 in John 14.

So again, you DON'T have any verses that describe Jesus taking any glorified believer to heaven. Because there aren't any.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 9, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:
The Bible is clear. There will be NO trips to heaven for believers in glorified bodies. Unless you have been holding back a verse.

What you now say in green isn't what your posts are claiming. Only when including "after the singular resurrection" makes the context clear. You weren't doing that.

Prove to me that Jesus WILL take glorified and resurrected believers to heaven.

Just one verse saying that will suffice. But so far, you've NOT done that.

Your disagreement is WITHOUT evidence.

Read my post, bud. And you have no answer to your views. No evidence at all. Just silly small quips.

You can't even show me Jesus taking anyone to heaven in a glorified body.

Yet, you STILL think He will do that? On WHAT basis? Your wish list?

cv5 said:

There is NEVER a barrier for Jesus going to heaven or coming back. What a silly claim.

What we absolutely do know is that the OT prophesied TWO visits to earth by the Messiah.
1. as a baby to become the Suffering Servant.
2. as the King of kings to rule the earth for a Millennium.

So the words "coming of the Lord" etc refer to the SECOND Advent. He has already come the FIRST time.

Whether they do or not is totally irrelevant to your theory of of glorified believers being taken to heaven.

His ascension. So what?

The Two Witnesses, who finally did die physically. And their being "raised up" isn't a glorified resurrection, or the Bible would have said so. They simply go back to heaven, when they have been since Jesus took all the residents of Paradise to heaven when He went up.

Uh, aren't you aware that this is AFTER the Millennial reign, and the present heaven and earth have been melted and there will be a new heaven and earth?? When the new earth is created, the NJ comes down from heaven to earth.

That isn't even close to any rapture notion.

See? Every time you think you have a verse or several that support your presumptions, I explain them properly and show you that your presumptions are in error.

You're welcome.

Evmur · Oct 9, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:

FreeGrace2 said:
The Bible is clear. There will be NO trips to heaven for believers in glorified bodies. Unless you have been holding back a verse.

You aren't even close to what my mindset is. All you have are presumptions, and they are wrong.

OK, you think John 14:1-3 is about a rapture. It's YOUR own mindset that need RE-setting.

1 “Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God ; believe also in me.
2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

v.1 is an appeal for faith in the Father and Son.
In v.2 Jesus assures the 11 that they WILL be in heaven. After what happened with Judas, they probably didn't even trust themselves.

Also, consider that Jesus hadn't died yet. And after His death, He DID ascend to heaven, just as He promised. And He DID prepare a place for each of them. In fact, that's where all 11 are right now. So Jesus kept His promise. And it had nothing to do with joining their souls with resurrected bodies and then going back to heaven.

In v.3 Jesus is promising the 11 that He will come back and take them to Himself. Nearly the same wording as Paul wrote in 1 Thess 4:17 - After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

The bolded sentence at the end is nearly the same as v.3 in John 14.

So again, you DON'T have any verses that describe Jesus taking any glorified believer to heaven. Because there aren't any.

We are already seated with Him in heavenly places.

You're all over the place aren't you.

Paul says we will not all die but we shall all be changed in the twinkling of the eye, death will be swallowed up in life, the corruptible will put on incorruption. This takes place at the resurrection of the just.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 9, 2022

Evmur said:

Positionally, yes. Actually, no.

Only if you believe the Bible is "all over the place".

Of course it does. Why do you think I don't believe that? I'm fully aware of 1 Thess 4:14-17 and 1 Cor 15, the ENTIRE chapter.

Some of the comments you make to me are very strange. Maybe you have confused me with someone else.

Aren't you going to respond to my explanation of John 14:1-3? Can you refute what I explained?

Clayman · Oct 9, 2022

GaryA said:

Ive just caught up to whats happened here, I was just pointing out the Hint of a the pretribulation rapture in Luke 21

When Israel was waiting for its Messiah, it was expected not only that Messiah was to come but also the Lord was going to rescue Israel and bring great judgment upon the whole world.

Of course everyone knew the scriptures about this day of the LORD for example

Isa 13:6 Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
Isa 13:7 Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:
Isa 13:8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.
Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

Zep 1:14 The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
Zep 1:15 That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,
Zep 1:16 A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.
Zep 1:17 And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.

etc etc anyway a question presented to the Lord throughout the synoptic gospels by the disciples is "When will these things be" as Jesus wasnt fitting the expected pattern here which was confusing for people until they could see the bigger picture!

And in His answer in Luke 21 there is the hint of an escape from this terrible day.

Luk 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
Luk 21:35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
Luk 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Those who are accounted worthy can only be those who are covered by the sacrifice on Calvary and therefore those looking to the Lord as opposed to those ensnared by the cares of the world that day will come upon them as a thief.

Rev_6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? Us those of the day,

This is the same context I carry through into the epistles and Revelation, where we have a more detailed account about the Day of the Lord, even its time period is now known as 7 years.

Here is how and why I interpret 2Thes 2:1-3 in this light.

[1] Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
[2] That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the Day of wrath is happening right now.
[3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for the Day of wrath shall not start, except there come a departure/(escape)(rapture) first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

1Th 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

We are not appointed to wrath etc etc,

Sorry I jumped on the never ending round about again it was going to be a quick one paragraph response but I just got caught up in it...

cv5 · Oct 9, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:

FreeGrace2 said:
The Bible is clear. There will be NO trips to heaven for believers in glorified bodies. Unless you have been holding back a verse.

What you now say in green isn't what your posts are claiming. Only when including "after the singular resurrection" makes the context clear. You weren't doing that.

Prove to me that Jesus WILL take glorified and resurrected believers to heaven.

Just one verse saying that will suffice. But so far, you've NOT done that.

Your disagreement is WITHOUT evidence.

Read my post, bud. And you have no answer to your views. No evidence at all. Just silly small quips.

You can't even show me Jesus taking anyone to heaven in a glorified body.

Yet, you STILL think He will do that? On WHAT basis? Your wish list?

There is NEVER a barrier for Jesus going to heaven or coming back. What a silly claim.

What we absolutely do know is that the OT prophesied TWO visits to earth by the Messiah.
1. as a baby to become the Suffering Servant.
2. as the King of kings to rule the earth for a Millennium.

So the words "coming of the Lord" etc refer to the SECOND Advent. He has already come the FIRST time.

Whether they do or not is totally irrelevant to your theory of of glorified believers being taken to heaven.

His ascension. So what?

The Two Witnesses, who finally did die physically. And their being "raised up" isn't a glorified resurrection, or the Bible would have said so. They simply go back to heaven, when they have been since Jesus took all the residents of Paradise to heaven when He went up.

Uh, aren't you aware that this is AFTER the Millennial reign, and the present heaven and earth have been melted and there will be a new heaven and earth?? When the new earth is created, the NJ comes down from heaven to earth.

That isn't even close to any rapture notion.

See? Every time you think you have a verse or several that support your presumptions, I explain them properly and show you that your presumptions are in error.

You're welcome.

Don't give yourself a hernia bro.....

TheDivineWatermark · Oct 9, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:

Right. So why did you bring up that point, as though it has anything to do with anything I've said, in this thread??

And regarding your mention of "TWO OT prophecies about Jesus coming to earth"... so? Who's arguing? All of us in this thread believe that.

Do you believe that Jesus, in His role as "Prophet" (during His earthly ministry before the Cross) as well as the "NT apostles and prophets" could both be speaking of something that could be considered further revelation (sometimes referred to as progressive revelation), now being disclosed in what we call the NT? :

Let the readers recall, that the phrase "apostles and prophets" [written in that order] refers to NT "apostles and prophets"...

Eph 2:20
And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

Eph 3:5
Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; [see also 1Cor2:7-8,9-10,16b "But God hath revealed it unto US" refers to the NT apostles and prophets]

Rev 18:20
Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.

Paul, for example, said, "Behold, I SHOW you a mystery..." (not something that was already WELL-KNOWN unto the OT saints like Martha and Job and Daniel... etc). Paul was given the task of disclosing things that pertain solely to "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (see Eph1:20-23 [WHEN (as to its existence)]; the concept of "rapture / snatch / caught up / harpazo [G726]" pertains SOLELY TO/FOR/ABOUT "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (ALL those saved "in this present age [singular]"), not to all other saints of all OTHER time periods (not to OT saints, not to Trib saints, not to MK saints--Show me ANY passage telling THOSE saints or SHOWING those saints regarding "caught up / snatch / rapture / harpazo [G726]"... it's simply not there)

Thief in the Night-- Pretrib or Second Coming?

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