Thief in the Night-- Pretrib or Second Coming?

[DavidTree]

It is quite comical that not one pre-trib expert = TheDivineWatermark, CV5, Clayman and Others are able to answer Scriptural questions that should be easily produced according to their convictions.


This Truth Challenge is for anyone and everyone who claims pre-trib rapture is a Scriptural Truth.

Please respond with your scriptural reference that dictates a pre-trib rapture before the Resurrection of the Dead in Christ as per the cumulative dictum of the Apostle Paul and the Apostle John and our Lord Yeshua HaMoshiach.

Please show forth the dictum of our LORD Yeshua specifying their will be two seperate Resurections for the Just and then a third resurrection for the unjust as per Clayman, CV5 and TheDivineWatermark statements wherby you adhere to these things, ie; pre-trib rapture before the Resurrection and then another Church Body of Christ springing up after this supposed pre-trib rapture along with another separate rapture for the Tribulation Saints who endure to the End (as specified in Revelation) unto your claim to a Third Coming of the LORD.

 

[FreeGrace2]

It is quite comical that not one pre-trib expert = TheDivineWatermark, CV5, Clayman and Others are able to answer Scriptural questions that should be easily produced according to their convictions.


This Truth Challenge is for anyone and everyone who claims pre-trib rapture is a Scriptural Truth.

Please respond with your scriptural reference that dictates a pre-trib rapture before the Resurrection of the Dead in Christ as per the cumulative dictum of the Apostle Paul and the Apostle John and our Lord Yeshua HaMoshiach.

Please show forth the dictum of our LORD Yeshua specifying their will be two seperate Resurections for the Just and then a third resurrection for the unjust as per Clayman, CV5 and TheDivineWatermark statements wherby you adhere to these things, ie; pre-trib rapture before the Resurrection and then another Church Body of Christ springing up after this supposed pre-trib rapture along with another seperate rapture for the Tribulation Saints who make it unto your claim to a Third Coming of the LORD.

I'll get the popcorn!

 

[cv5]

I wrote, "But you don't share it yourself. I wonder why that is?"

So I will keep on wondering if the reason you don't answer specific questions or address specific is because you don't have a clue, but you want to keep putting up a front like you have everything figured out.

And you will go on knowing for sure whether you are just putting up a front.

Bro...you know full well that I am ALWAYS more than willing to sit down and speak with post-tribbers. But as you know, there is a massive backlog of scriptures that you have not, or more likely cannot respond to in a cogent, rational honest-hearted manner. Lets have you attend to those first....shall we?

"Matt 27:32-33
And the graves opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose (g1453).
And came out of the graves after His resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

And what did this group do post-resurrection? Go back to their families, tentmaking, fishing and herds and flocks? I seriously doubt it.

Matt 26:32
But after I am risen again (g1453), I will go before you to Galilee."

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

"I think it was meant for FG2. As a foil to his "no Christian gets to heaven" theory"

Right. No believer makes it to heaven. Just a resurrection, a quick levitation to 35,000 ft then plunked back down to terra firma.

If you've just been translated to an immortal, you won't be complaining about being plunked down. You might have work to do. My understanding is that we will be be joining "he who rides on the clouds" as he takes up ownership of the world.

But 'plunked down' might serve The Lord's purpose. I was planning on obeying The Lord of Armies on what I must do.
Plunked down worked out well for Philip.

Acts 8:39
When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord suddenly took Philip away, (harpazo) and the eunuch did not see him again,
but went on his way rejoicing. 40 Philip, however, appeared at Azotus and travelled about, preaching the gospel in all the towns until he reached Caesarea.


Resurrected believers would already have been in heaven.

When they return with Jesus & receive their immortal bodies, there is no reason to go back heaven.
Those being raptured wouldn't want to be anywhere else but in The King's processional return.
The resurrection is at it's appointed time during the 2nd coming.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

That news is about 2000 years old bro.....
Of course pre-tribbers have the answer to this and all other post-tribber dilemmas, confusion, and anxieties.

The resurrection at the 2nd Coming of Jesus: (you refer to this as "post trib")
Believers go to heaven when they die and return with Jesus at the resurrection (2nd coming).

No dilemma, confusion or anxiety.

Pretribulation Rapture
Believers go to heaven when they die, return to earth to receive immortal bodies at the resurrection.
Then go back to heaven for (seven?) years. Then come back to earth a second time with Jesus.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Bro...you know full well that I am ALWAYS more than willing to sit down and speak with post-tribbers.

"speaking" with and answering questions are two quite different things.

But as you know, there is a massive backlog of scriptures that you have not, or more likely cannot respond to in a cogent, rational honest-hearted manner.

Every one of them have been answered, unlike what you do.

Lets have you attend to those first....shall we?

"Matt 27:32-33
And the graves opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose (g1453).
And came out of the graves after His resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Hm. here are the 2 verses cited from Matt 27-
32 As they were going out, they met a man from Cyrene, named Simon, and they forced him to carry the cross.
33 They came to a place called Golgotha (which means “the place of the skull”).

Do you know where you are today?

And what did this group do post-resurrection? Go back to their families, tentmaking, fishing and herds and flocks? I seriously doubt it.

Why do you think your doubting is important? You obviously don't even know what chapter you referred to. So try again.

But I know where you should be:
52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life.
53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

Do you know that all these people were raised to life BEFORE Jesus received His glorified body? All that occurred when Jesus was crucified:
38 Two rebels were crucified with him, one on his right and one on his left.

Notice the verse #s. Jesus hadn't been glorified yet. So this resurrection was NOT about getting a glorified body for any of those who "came out of their graves.

Maybe you just don't believe what Paul wrote about Jesus being the FIRSTFRUITS.

Acts 26:23 - that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”

Now, THIS resurrection DID result in Jesus getting a glorified body. Nobody before Him got one.

Matt 26:32
But after I am risen again (g1453), I will go before you to Galilee."

A reference to the glorified resurrection of Jesus. And your point here?

I'll bet that flimsy chair didn't even hold up when Mr cocky tried to sit on it.

OK, I answered your most important verses. Now your turn. Answer our questions. If you have any. Your excuses are gone.

 

[DavidTree]

The resurrection at the 2nd Coming of Jesus: (you refer to this as "post trib")
Believers go to heaven when they die and return with Jesus at the resurrection (2nd coming).

No dilemma, confusion or anxiety.

Pretribulation Rapture
Believers go to heaven when they die, return to earth to receive immortal bodies at the resurrection.
Then go back to heaven for (seven?) years. Then come back to earth a second time with Jesus.

pre-trib dictates the 'raptured' come back with a Third Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ

Which no one has ever brought forth a single scripture that states this pre-trib mandate.

 

[DavidTree]

I'll get the popcorn!

i prefer venison jerky

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The resurrection at the 2nd Coming of Jesus: (you refer to this as "post trib")
Believers go to heaven when they die and return with Jesus at the resurrection (2nd coming).

No dilemma, confusion or anxiety.

So you don't believe the part about them that says,

--"shall rise first" (that's bodily resurrection--meaning "to stand again")

--then... caught up TOGETHER with them (that is, when they are also "caught up"--at the same time)... TO the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR--where the "verb" and the "adverb" must be attached



In other words, there's still the "up-down-up [to the AIR]-down"-action for the Post-trib viewpoint, if all the words (in this section of Scripture) are taken into account and believed for what they say. It doesn't seem you do, from what I can tell.

Pretribulation Rapture
Believers go to heaven when they die, return to earth to receive immortal bodies at the resurrection.
Then go back to heaven for (seven?) years. Then come back to earth a second time with Jesus.

Very little difference, except for the "7 years" , "in heaven" part... I mean, there's still all that "4-step-ACTION" thing, unless you want to leave out a couple parts... many people do find no problem at all with glossing over what Scripture actually says in order to hold to incorrect ideas...

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

So you don't believe the part about them that says,

--"shall rise first" (that's bodily resurrection--meaning "to stand again")

That means, our old bodies (buried in the graves) will NO LONGER BE in the graves, at that point. That's what it means to be "resurrected" ['to stand again'}... which is distinct from the "changed" / "glorified" thing

 

[cv5]

Jesus hadn't been glorified yet. So this resurrection was NOT about getting a glorified body for any of those who "came out of their graves.

A reference to the glorified resurrection of Jesus. And your point here?

Wow. So now your "Schrödinger saints" have SIX characteristics?
Dead/alive. Heaven/earth. Glorified/unglorified?

Thats some crazy train eschatology bro......

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
I'll get the popcorn!

i prefer venison jerky

Good choice! Goes well with popcorn.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Jesus hadn't been glorified yet. So this resurrection was NOT about getting a glorified body for any of those who "came out of their graves.

A reference to the glorified resurrection of Jesus. And your point here?

Wow. So now your "Schrödinger saints" have SIX characteristics?

I have no idea what you are talking about.

Dead/alive. Heaven/earth. Glorified/unglorified?

And? Make up your mind. I've already explained mine, over and over.

Thats some crazy train eschatology bro......

Yes, pre-trib is rather crazy, since there are no verses that say what you guys claim.

 

[cv5]

FreeGrace2 said:
cv5 said:
Wow. So now your "Schrödinger saints" have SIX characteristics?

@FreeGrace2 replied:
I have no idea what you are talking about.

Well....it seems that you have just added yet another new category to those "Schrödinger saints" which were created by that zany @presidente fellow. Good job buddy.....

"@presidente said"
"Don't use bad translations for fine doctrinal points. Actual 'died in the great tribulation' does some bad damage to your pre-trib position on this issue, but real translation say 'come out of.' The 'translation' is doing the interpreting here. What version are you using. "

@cv5 replied:
Congrats bro. Only you could have created a brand-new category of "Schrödinger cat" saints.
We don't know if they are dead or alive, in heaven or on earth.

Good job buddy....."

 

[cv5]

Well....it seems that you have just added yet another new category to those "Schrödinger saints" which were created by that zany @presidente fellow. Good job buddy.....

"@presidente said"
"Don't use bad translations for fine doctrinal points. Actual 'died in the great tribulation' does some bad damage to your pre-trib position on this issue, but real translation say 'come out of.' The 'translation' is doing the interpreting here. What version are you using. "

@cv5 replied:
Congrats bro. Only you could have created a brand-new category of "Schrödinger cat" saints.
We don't know if they are dead or alive, in heaven or on earth.

Good job buddy....."

FreeGrace2 said:
Jesus hadn't been glorified yet. So this resurrection was NOT about getting a glorified body for any of those who "came out of their graves.

A reference to the glorified resurrection of Jesus. And your point here?

@cv5 replied:
Wow. So now your "Schrödinger saints" have SIX characteristics?
Dead/alive. Heaven/earth. Glorified/unglorified?

Thats some crazy train eschatology bro......

 

[FreeGrace2]

Well....it seems that you have just added yet another new category to those "Schrödinger saints" which were created by that zany @presidente fellow. Good job buddy.....

Could you find the time to explain your bizarre posts? I have no idea what your mumbling bumbling comments about Schrodinger saints are about, or any category.

Seems you have having a real hard time reading my posts. No one else has any problem.

"@presidente said"
"Don't use bad translations for fine doctrinal points. Actual 'died in the great tribulation' does some bad damage to your pre-trib position on this issue, but real translation say 'come out of.' The 'translation' is doing the interpreting here. What version are you using. "

@cv5 replied:
Congrats bro. Only you could have created a brand-new category of "Schrödinger cat" saints.
We don't know if they are dead or alive, in heaven or on earth.

Good job buddy....."

What in the world is all this mess anyway?

Here are some pointers for you:

1. stay with black color.
2. stay with the same font for all words.
3. define your ridiculous comments.
4. stop wasting all the space you take up with your posts.

Thanks.

 

[cv5]

Could you find the time to explain your bizarre posts? I have no idea what your mumbling bumbling comments about Schrodinger saints are about, or any category.

Seems you have having a real hard time reading my posts. No one else has any problem.


What in the world is all this mess anyway?

Here are some pointers for you:

1. stay with black color.
2. stay with the same font for all words.
3. define your ridiculous comments.
4. stop wasting all the space you take up with your posts.

Thanks.

Thanks for the feedback buddy.

Well, just as kids need crayons, likewise I thought color and bold type would help with your lack of comprehension.

Just trying to help bro. I will try harder next time.

 

[Blade]

Not good with words forgive me..sorry for so long post Not here to offend... I have always wondered why "Pre-Trib" tends to get treated hmm not as nice as mid or Post Trib does odd huh. For something that's not true one has to make sure to attack it and make fun of it and those that believe it. So maybe here it can be said "Which no one has ever brought forth a single scripture that states this pre-trib mandate. " The same exact words you know can be said for MID/POST right? Still all of this is getting made fun of by others. So why debate talk about it if one cant treat it seriously? Some really believe in pre-trib and your truly not helping them by making fun of what they believe. Yeah.. Jesus coming before the great trib.. lets make fun of them. Maybe treat them with the same respect you want? Someone just posted "Yes, pre-trib is rather crazy". Please define crazy. Its not believing Jesus went back to make us a home and will come back and get us. Its not believing Christ will come in the air voice, shout, trump dead rise then we all go up together to meet Christ in the Air. That's not crazy to me. Hmm wonder why Paul didn't just show them what Matt wrote in Chapter 24. Granted there would be no chapter..but then again it was not written yet. Seems Christ knew all those followers were going to be so confused get it wrong until Matt and the rest of the NT gets written and shared so MAN can then tell us what was really being said.

You just don't want to say anything. Well when you know there are scriptures and words that to this day no one knows exactly what it means. I can think of one right now where "It means" Yet "it also means". Some people take only what fits there belief and ignore what the word or verse might also be saying. Pre or Post are not correct because you ..sorry... know when the resurrection really happens or did happen or the next one or the 3rd one will happen. Sorry what?

Its like all those people heard what Christ said then went up and knew He was coming back any moment. HAHA thoughts came screaming in.. NO NO NO NO! They never believed Christ was coming back any moment that's another lie. Heard both sides for over 50 years so.. nothing new ever gets shared nothing. What you think you found that no one else did.. sorry its been shared talked debated it over and over so get in line.

I know I will never miss Him. When I will not add to what is written nor speculate I have to just take Him His word at what He said not what man says or what I really would like to believe. I have to just have faith that Christ went back to make me a home and will come back and receive me unto Him self so where He is I will be. For me Christ talking to His own Jews that lived under by the law at that time where no Church no Christian was there. Then who asked Him then what He said He knew or didn't or of those times and seasons are only for the Father. Then NT what Christ then shared with Paul and others He never shared in MATT-JOHN.... I just am ready now.,

 

[Clayman]

ie; pre-trib rapture before the Resurrection and then another Church Body of Christ springing up after this supposed pre-trib rapture along with another separate rapture for the Tribulation Saints who endure to the End (as specified in Revelation) unto your claim to a Third Coming of the LORD.

Just so you know pretrib does not have two raptures, at the end of the tribulation we see the surviving saints as those who enter as mortals to populate the millennial kingdom, our pre mill post trib brothers have all the believers removed at the Lords return and those who rejected Christ are the mortals who enter the kingdom.

Yes those who took the mark, those who mistreated the saints and beheaded the saints, those who rejected Jesus and accepted the man of Sin, these survivers when Jesus returns enter the millennial kingdom from there point of view!
They get to live for 1000yrs in the Kingdom and its physical blessings before they meet there deserved doom.

I however see more like in Matt 25, No rapture but a gathering of people(the survivors) and Jesus will sort em out.

Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations(Can mean people): and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

 

[FreeGrace2]

Thanks for the feedback buddy.

We'll all see if you take any of it.

Well, just as kids need crayons, likewise I thought color and bold type would help with your lack of comprehension.

Because you have no support from Scripture, we all know this is the best you can do.

Just trying to help bro. I will try harder next time.

Really?

Your posts are getting just emptier and emptier. You provide nothing to the discussion. Just childish silliness.