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R
the bible only says that the sons of God and daughters of men were intermarrying and having children...and that there were nephilim on earth in those days...
it is an -interpretation- when you say that the sons of God were angels and that the nephilim were superhuman children of angels and humans...
and that particular interpretation goes back to ancient paganism...which was full of tales of heavenly beings interbreeding with humans and producing demigod offspring...
there are other interpretations that are not influenced by paganism...for example the interpretation where the sons of God are the descendants of seth...or the interpretation where the sons of God were rulers who claimed divinity as the pharaohs later did...
jude is not even talking about genesis...he is talking about the fall of satan and his angels...
it is an -interpretation- when you say that the sons of God were angels and that the nephilim were superhuman children of angels and humans...
and that particular interpretation goes back to ancient paganism...which was full of tales of heavenly beings interbreeding with humans and producing demigod offspring...
there are other interpretations that are not influenced by paganism...for example the interpretation where the sons of God are the descendants of seth...or the interpretation where the sons of God were rulers who claimed divinity as the pharaohs later did...
jude is not even talking about genesis...he is talking about the fall of satan and his angels...
P revious to the Books of Moses, all was oral tradition tracing back to Adam. Moses wrote the history of man according to what was given him to write down, just as was any prophet of Yahweh. As for what rabbinical treatment may be in the teachings today, I will not delve into. None of this is more important than Yeshua crucified for our sins. His gospel is all we need know for salvation. As for the Holy Scriptures previous to John the Immerser, the Prophets and Moses speak of Jesus. One of the last of the giants is Goliath, perhaps the mention and connection to the nephilim of the sons of god are only an indication of his genealogy.
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R
here is what i have been about to figure out about goliath's origin...
1 samuel 17:4..."Then a champion came out from the armies of the Philistines named Goliath, from Gath, whose height was six cubits and a span."
so goliath was from gath...
joshua 11:22..."There were no Anakim left in the land of the sons of Israel; only in Gaza, in Gath, and in Ashdod some remained."
so there were remnants of the anakites in gath...also the name goliath actually means 'exile'
deuteronomy 2:11..."Like the Anakim, they are also regarded as Rephaim, but the Moabites call them Emim."
so the anakites are a rephaite clan...
joshua 12:4..."and the territory of Og king of Bashan, one of the remnant of Rephaim, who lived at Ashtaroth and at Edrei,"
so king og of bashan was a remnant of the rephaites...you can find the reason the rephaites were reduced to a remnant in genesis 14 and deuteronomy 2...
deuteronomy 4:47..."They took possession of his land and the land of Og king of Bashan, the two kings of the Amorites, who were across the Jordan to the east,"
so og was king of the amorites...meaning the rephaites are one of the amorite tribes...
genesis 10:15-16..."Canaan became the father of Sidon, his firstborn, and Heth and the Jebusite and the Amorite and the Girgashite"
so the amorites were descendants of canaan...they were a canaanite nation...
genesis 10:6..."The sons of Ham were Cush and Mizraim and Put and Canaan."
so canaan was a son of ham...
genesis 10:1..."Now these are the records of the generations of Shem, Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah; and sons were born to them after the flood."
and finally ham is a son of noah...
so there is goliath's lineage about as completely as we can know it...
noah...ham...canaan...amorites...rephaites...anakites...goliath...
1 samuel 17:4..."Then a champion came out from the armies of the Philistines named Goliath, from Gath, whose height was six cubits and a span."
so goliath was from gath...
joshua 11:22..."There were no Anakim left in the land of the sons of Israel; only in Gaza, in Gath, and in Ashdod some remained."
so there were remnants of the anakites in gath...also the name goliath actually means 'exile'
deuteronomy 2:11..."Like the Anakim, they are also regarded as Rephaim, but the Moabites call them Emim."
so the anakites are a rephaite clan...
joshua 12:4..."and the territory of Og king of Bashan, one of the remnant of Rephaim, who lived at Ashtaroth and at Edrei,"
so king og of bashan was a remnant of the rephaites...you can find the reason the rephaites were reduced to a remnant in genesis 14 and deuteronomy 2...
deuteronomy 4:47..."They took possession of his land and the land of Og king of Bashan, the two kings of the Amorites, who were across the Jordan to the east,"
so og was king of the amorites...meaning the rephaites are one of the amorite tribes...
genesis 10:15-16..."Canaan became the father of Sidon, his firstborn, and Heth and the Jebusite and the Amorite and the Girgashite"
so the amorites were descendants of canaan...they were a canaanite nation...
genesis 10:6..."The sons of Ham were Cush and Mizraim and Put and Canaan."
so canaan was a son of ham...
genesis 10:1..."Now these are the records of the generations of Shem, Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah; and sons were born to them after the flood."
and finally ham is a son of noah...
so there is goliath's lineage about as completely as we can know it...
noah...ham...canaan...amorites...rephaites...anakites...goliath...
W
Myths came from the truth of the word of GOD not GODs word from the myths. Maybe those who doubt the story of the fallen angels mixing there blood with the daughters of men. Look into the archaelogical proof that they were what the Bible says they are. The N.Y. Giants are called that for a reason the size bones they found there check it out.
1
SHEEPxDOG
Just to clarify.
It seems that you are implying that the Nephilim were fallen angels in the pre-flood description?
Were the nephilim in question destroyed in the flood?
Were their offspring (rephaim) destroyed in the flood?
If so, are you implying that they breeded with humans again after the flood?
Or are you supposing that one or all of Noah's children were rephaim?
Or did not everyone die during the flood?
Sorry for the number of questions, but the "edit" post that you made after RachelBibleStudent's post raised these questions in my mind.
Thanks
Just to clarify.
It seems that you are implying that the Nephilim were fallen angels in the pre-flood description?
Were the nephilim in question destroyed in the flood?
Were their offspring (rephaim) destroyed in the flood?
If so, are you implying that they breeded with humans again after the flood?
Or are you supposing that one or all of Noah's children were rephaim?
Or did not everyone die during the flood?
Sorry for the number of questions, but the "edit" post that you made after RachelBibleStudent's post raised these questions in my mind.
Thanks
1
I humbly disagree with this fallen angel explanation, though I will stop short of arguing over it, because it is not abundantly detailed in the Word and ultimately it may comes down to how one views the Old Testament in macro-sense to the New Testament.
Since I view the OT as having the shadow of what is to come and even a direct contrast from time to time, then I believe that the OT people, while implied to be the sons of God are often never fully addressed as such in the same light as the NT people are because the fullness of the knowledge of God was not yet given at that time. In other words there is an order to things in how God has progressively revealed himself to man in history, not revealing everything at once.
This has been done as the NT tells us for our sakes so that in the fullness of time we might have them as an example.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For example the OT people are told by Moses that they are collectively, ““Thus you shall say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel: [SUP][/SUP]‘You have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles’ wings and brought you to Myself. [SUP][/SUP]Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be a special treasure to Me above all people; for all the earth is Mine. [SUP][/SUP]And you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words which you shall speak to the children of Israel.”
So now in the NT, Peter gives this royal priesthood of all believers its rightful context in Christ Jesus (1Pet. 2).
What was not made clear by direct revelation in the OT is given more light in the NT and we can see in hindsight that this prophetic picturing the OT people’s priesthood was a calling that they continually fell short of because ultimately, they did not have the Holy Spirit or rather the fullness of God’s revelation in the fullness of time had not yet occurred to make the sons of Abraham (by faith) capable of such a life. This is our example, that apart from Christ and His Spirit this priesthood is not possible. Another way to say it would be that through the law, this life was not possible, because the law could not perfect man.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So it is with this idea of "Sons of God." It is true that this phrase does not abound in the OT but it is nevertheless there as a shadow of what is to be known in the future. The OT people are known as sons of God but continually fail at this calling to live accordingly. And it would seem that scripture reveals this just enough so that they are without excuse but not often enough as to make the people assume that they had obtained it outside of the work of the promised “seed.”
The idea of being a son of God is not fully understood until Christ the true Son demonstrates that true nature and His Holy Spirit is imparted to believers. Nevertheless, God does make this reference in the following ways:
1 God tells Moses to tell Pharaoh that, “Israel is my son, my firstborn. So I say to you, let my son go that he may serve Me.”
2 In 2 Samuel and other passages, God comforts David about his son, saying that “I will be his Father, and he shall be my son.”
3 Later in the Psalms the OT people are referred to as “gods” a passage that Jesus later uses to rebuff the Pharisees’ disdain for Christ having claimed the status as the Son of God.
4 Isaiah makes the reference to God as the everlasting father.
5 Also earlier in Isaiah, God calls the captors of Israel to give them up and to “bring my sons from afar, and my daughters from the ends of the earth— everyone who is called by my name”
6 Likewise in Jeremiah we see the Lord exclaim to the people, “you shall call me, My father; and not turn away from following me.”
7 Later in Jeremiah we see the Lord declare that he is a father to Israel and Ephraim is his firstborn.
8 In 2 Corinthians where Paul quotes an OT passages, possibly the Jeremiah passage, where the Lord declared to Israel, I will be a father to you and you shall be sons and daughters to me.”
9 Hosea in prophetic language about the names of his sons, the children of Israel are given the title as sons of the living God.
10 In Deut 32:8 different manuscripts put it differently but some say that God fixed the borders of the peoples according to the number of the "sons of God," while others say the "sons of Israel."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just as he talks about sons of God in the OT, one can see that in this same clouded way, God speaks of this paternal nature in the OT and doesn't often refer to any direct spiritual nature as he says he such things as he will oppose the rebellious Jews as he “opposed their fathers,” relating them to their natural father's behavior. Likewise he would reference the faithful many times to the faithful Jews, their natural fathers.
However, in the fullness of time, Christ now reveals what is really going on when adds more clarity to the language and says to the Pharisees (the unfaithful Jews) you are of your father, Satan. Similarly, we now get this reference as "sons of God" more defined and developed in the NT in the light of the full revelation of God.
I believe that the people of God are known as the "sons of God" in the OT but the point of this title in the OT isn't to reveal the perfect work of God in them, but rather to show us our nature's inability to fill that role through the ages with and without the law and their continual need for a true Son of God from Adam until Christ. The passage in Genesis 6 demonstrates this cohesive story of our failing once more as mankind is prone to be lured by the eyes of the flesh rather than the heart of faith.
In terms of the references about the sons of God in heaven being angels, it would take much longer to say all I wish to say, so I will only comment briefly. In similar fashion to what is described in Job, there is an example of Joshua coming with others (long after he is dead) before the Angel of the Lord with Satan. Satan stands to oppose Joshua who is clothed in filthy garments. In the context of both passages, the Lord speaks first and it is concerning his saints. Satan once again demonstrates his role as the “accuser of the brethren,” as he did with Job. This role is one he did continually in heaven before the Lord according to Revelation.
It is conceivable then that this is not an unusual event in heaven, for the saints to be the point of the conversation or to be brought before the Lord in this manner. Indeed, it is not an open and shut case by any means but it has some biblical merit. Therefore with regard to Gen 6, I am more inclined to believe the explanation that supports the biblical theme of our own propensity to chase after sin, than a violent injustice perpetrated on mankind by fallen angels fornicating with or raping women, that seems to be an arbitrary and untidy piece in fitting with the grand scope of biblical salvation. Instead we know from scripture that the unfaithful yoking of believers to unbelievers has been the source of such falling away (Solomon, Sampson, etc.) and one that is warned against in scripture consistently even into the NT.
Once again, I understand that others have their own belief about such things, but I maintain that God’s plan is coherent and cohesive from beginning to end.
[SUP]“[/SUP]Of the which salvation the Prophets have inquired and searched, which prophesied of the grace that should come unto you, Searching when or what time the Spirit, which testified before of Christ, which was in them, should declare the sufferings that should come unto Christ, and the glory that should follow. Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they should minister the things, which are showed unto you by them which have preached unto you the Gospel by the holy Ghost sent down from heaven, the which things the Angels desire to behold”
This is only my humble opinion and as such should not be perceived as a threat to anyone else’s opinion.
Thank you for reading my llllooonnngggg post.
Since I view the OT as having the shadow of what is to come and even a direct contrast from time to time, then I believe that the OT people, while implied to be the sons of God are often never fully addressed as such in the same light as the NT people are because the fullness of the knowledge of God was not yet given at that time. In other words there is an order to things in how God has progressively revealed himself to man in history, not revealing everything at once.
This has been done as the NT tells us for our sakes so that in the fullness of time we might have them as an example.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For example the OT people are told by Moses that they are collectively, ““Thus you shall say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel: [SUP][/SUP]‘You have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles’ wings and brought you to Myself. [SUP][/SUP]Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be a special treasure to Me above all people; for all the earth is Mine. [SUP][/SUP]And you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words which you shall speak to the children of Israel.”
So now in the NT, Peter gives this royal priesthood of all believers its rightful context in Christ Jesus (1Pet. 2).
What was not made clear by direct revelation in the OT is given more light in the NT and we can see in hindsight that this prophetic picturing the OT people’s priesthood was a calling that they continually fell short of because ultimately, they did not have the Holy Spirit or rather the fullness of God’s revelation in the fullness of time had not yet occurred to make the sons of Abraham (by faith) capable of such a life. This is our example, that apart from Christ and His Spirit this priesthood is not possible. Another way to say it would be that through the law, this life was not possible, because the law could not perfect man.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So it is with this idea of "Sons of God." It is true that this phrase does not abound in the OT but it is nevertheless there as a shadow of what is to be known in the future. The OT people are known as sons of God but continually fail at this calling to live accordingly. And it would seem that scripture reveals this just enough so that they are without excuse but not often enough as to make the people assume that they had obtained it outside of the work of the promised “seed.”
The idea of being a son of God is not fully understood until Christ the true Son demonstrates that true nature and His Holy Spirit is imparted to believers. Nevertheless, God does make this reference in the following ways:
1 God tells Moses to tell Pharaoh that, “Israel is my son, my firstborn. So I say to you, let my son go that he may serve Me.”
2 In 2 Samuel and other passages, God comforts David about his son, saying that “I will be his Father, and he shall be my son.”
3 Later in the Psalms the OT people are referred to as “gods” a passage that Jesus later uses to rebuff the Pharisees’ disdain for Christ having claimed the status as the Son of God.
4 Isaiah makes the reference to God as the everlasting father.
5 Also earlier in Isaiah, God calls the captors of Israel to give them up and to “bring my sons from afar, and my daughters from the ends of the earth— everyone who is called by my name”
6 Likewise in Jeremiah we see the Lord exclaim to the people, “you shall call me, My father; and not turn away from following me.”
7 Later in Jeremiah we see the Lord declare that he is a father to Israel and Ephraim is his firstborn.
8 In 2 Corinthians where Paul quotes an OT passages, possibly the Jeremiah passage, where the Lord declared to Israel, I will be a father to you and you shall be sons and daughters to me.”
9 Hosea in prophetic language about the names of his sons, the children of Israel are given the title as sons of the living God.
10 In Deut 32:8 different manuscripts put it differently but some say that God fixed the borders of the peoples according to the number of the "sons of God," while others say the "sons of Israel."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just as he talks about sons of God in the OT, one can see that in this same clouded way, God speaks of this paternal nature in the OT and doesn't often refer to any direct spiritual nature as he says he such things as he will oppose the rebellious Jews as he “opposed their fathers,” relating them to their natural father's behavior. Likewise he would reference the faithful many times to the faithful Jews, their natural fathers.
However, in the fullness of time, Christ now reveals what is really going on when adds more clarity to the language and says to the Pharisees (the unfaithful Jews) you are of your father, Satan. Similarly, we now get this reference as "sons of God" more defined and developed in the NT in the light of the full revelation of God.
I believe that the people of God are known as the "sons of God" in the OT but the point of this title in the OT isn't to reveal the perfect work of God in them, but rather to show us our nature's inability to fill that role through the ages with and without the law and their continual need for a true Son of God from Adam until Christ. The passage in Genesis 6 demonstrates this cohesive story of our failing once more as mankind is prone to be lured by the eyes of the flesh rather than the heart of faith.
In terms of the references about the sons of God in heaven being angels, it would take much longer to say all I wish to say, so I will only comment briefly. In similar fashion to what is described in Job, there is an example of Joshua coming with others (long after he is dead) before the Angel of the Lord with Satan. Satan stands to oppose Joshua who is clothed in filthy garments. In the context of both passages, the Lord speaks first and it is concerning his saints. Satan once again demonstrates his role as the “accuser of the brethren,” as he did with Job. This role is one he did continually in heaven before the Lord according to Revelation.
It is conceivable then that this is not an unusual event in heaven, for the saints to be the point of the conversation or to be brought before the Lord in this manner. Indeed, it is not an open and shut case by any means but it has some biblical merit. Therefore with regard to Gen 6, I am more inclined to believe the explanation that supports the biblical theme of our own propensity to chase after sin, than a violent injustice perpetrated on mankind by fallen angels fornicating with or raping women, that seems to be an arbitrary and untidy piece in fitting with the grand scope of biblical salvation. Instead we know from scripture that the unfaithful yoking of believers to unbelievers has been the source of such falling away (Solomon, Sampson, etc.) and one that is warned against in scripture consistently even into the NT.
Once again, I understand that others have their own belief about such things, but I maintain that God’s plan is coherent and cohesive from beginning to end.
[SUP]“[/SUP]Of the which salvation the Prophets have inquired and searched, which prophesied of the grace that should come unto you, Searching when or what time the Spirit, which testified before of Christ, which was in them, should declare the sufferings that should come unto Christ, and the glory that should follow. Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they should minister the things, which are showed unto you by them which have preached unto you the Gospel by the holy Ghost sent down from heaven, the which things the Angels desire to behold”
This is only my humble opinion and as such should not be perceived as a threat to anyone else’s opinion.
Thank you for reading my llllooonnngggg post.