Those Pesky "If" clauses...

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Wansvic

Wansvic

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Nov 27, 2018
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"If" clauses are clauses that express conditions that have to be met in order for the action in the main clause to happen. The if clauses in 2 Timothy 2:10-13 speak volumes:

"Therefore I (Paul) endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: If we deny him, he also will deny us:
If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself."

According to Paul, believers are buried with Jesus by baptism wherein sins are destroyed. (See verses 3, 4 and 6 below) And this made possible through the shed blood of Jesus on the cross:

Roman 6:3-6
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

In addition to baptism, the scripture reveals those who suffer are the ones who will reign with Him. Acts 9:16 (suffering for His name), Phil. 1:29-30 (suffering for His sake), 1 Peter 4:12-13 (painful trials), and Rom. 8:17-18 (suffering with Christ)
 
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Wansvic said:
"If" clauses are clauses that express conditions that have to be met in order for the action in the main clause to happen. The if clauses in 2 Timothy 2:10-13 speak volumes:

"Therefore I (Paul) endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: If we deny him, he also will deny us:
If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself."

According to Paul, believers are buried with Jesus by baptism wherein sins are destroyed. (See verses 3, 4 and 6 below) And this made possible through the shed blood of Jesus on the cross:

Roman 6:3-6
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

In addition to baptism, the scripture reveals those who suffer are the ones who will reign with Him. Acts 9:16 (suffering for His name), Phil. 1:29-30 (suffering for His sake), 1 Peter 4:12-13 (painful trials), and Rom. 8:17-18 (suffering with Christ)
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Yep. IF = MFW, and MFW means God is just and omniloving,
which tulipists demean and deny, thereby perverting the Gospel.
 
Wansvic said:
"If" clauses are clauses that express conditions that have to be met in order for the action in the main clause to happen. The if clauses in 2 Timothy 2:10-13 speak volumes:

"Therefore I (Paul) endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: If we deny him, he also will deny us:
If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself."

According to Paul, believers are buried with Jesus by baptism wherein sins are destroyed. (See verses 3, 4 and 6 below) And this made possible through the shed blood of Jesus on the cross:

Roman 6:3-6
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

In addition to baptism, the scripture reveals those who suffer are the ones who will reign with Him. Acts 9:16 (suffering for His name), Phil. 1:29-30 (suffering for His sake), 1 Peter 4:12-13 (painful trials), and Rom. 8:17-18 (suffering with Christ)
Click to expand...
I would observe that "if" clauses are more limited than you seem to be implying. An "if" clause merely states that "if these conditions are met, this will be the result". Now "If my team scores more points in the game than the other team, my team will win", very good and true, but my team also wins if the other team forfeits or scores more points by using an ineligible player (I know of a college football team that outscored every opponent, but lost every game when it was discovered that one player had never enrolled in any classes that fall) or some other special and unusual condition exists. What you are referring to are not "if" statements, but rather "if AND ONLY IF" statements
 
rewriter said:
I would observe that "if" clauses are more limited than you seem to be implying. An "if" clause merely states that "if these conditions are met, this will be the result". Now "If my team scores more points in the game than the other team, my team will win", very good and true, but my team also wins if the other team forfeits or scores more points by using an ineligible player (I know of a college football team that outscored every opponent, but lost every game when it was discovered that one player had never enrolled in any classes that fall) or some other special and unusual condition exists. What you are referring to are not "if" statements, but rather "if AND ONLY IF" statements
Click to expand...

So, what is YOUR point?
 
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GWH said:
So, what is YOUR point?
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Just that we need to be careful when we say that "if" means "if and only if". A simple "if" does not rule out other options, it merely indicates that when the designated thing occurs, then one can know what will follow. What follows may or may not occur independently of the first designated thing.
 
IOW, if baptism into death only means baptism in water, then the underlying implied assumption would be true.
 
markss said:
What does this part mean to you in context?

Much love!
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Jesus said -
Luk 12:8 Also I say unto you, Whosoever should end up confessing (aorist active sunbunctive) me before men, him the Son of man shall also be confessing (future active indicative) before the angels of God:
Luk 12:9 But the one having denied me (aorist middle deponent participle) me before men shall be being denied (future passive indicative) before the angels of God.
The aorist is not actually a tense. It is a way of expressing an action or state as a snapshot of the action. It does not indicate whether the action or state was/is/will be momentary, repetitive, or continuous, only that it was, is, or will be happening. Context must determine what kind of action was actually in play.

IMO, Tim 2 means that if Jesus does not deny someone before the Father who is denying Him at that moment, He would have been lying in Luke 12:8-9, and therefore not be faithful to His own word.
 
rewriter said:
I would observe that "if" clauses are more limited than you seem to be implying. An "if" clause merely states that "if these conditions are met, this will be the result". Now "If my team scores more points in the game than the other team, my team will win", very good and true, but my team also wins if the other team forfeits or scores more points by using an ineligible player (I know of a college football team that outscored every opponent, but lost every game when it was discovered that one player had never enrolled in any classes that fall) or some other special and unusual condition exists. What you are referring to are not "if" statements, but rather "if AND ONLY IF" statements
Click to expand...
also in the original language the word "IF" has several meanings known as conditions, one of those carries the same as "SINCE" I suspect though, haven't checked this is one of those passages where multiple declensions are being used.
 
Pro 2:1 My son, if thou wilt receive my words, And lay up my commandments with thee;
Pro 2:2 So as to incline thine ear unto wisdom, And apply thy heart to understanding;
Pro 2:3 Yea, if thou cry after discernment, And lift up thy voice for understanding;
Pro 2:4 If thou seek her as silver, And search for her as for hid treasures:
Pro 2:5 Then shalt thou understand the fear of Jehovah, And find the knowledge of God.
Pro 2:6 For Jehovah giveth wisdom; Out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding:
Pro 2:7 He layeth up sound wisdom for the upright; He is a shield to them that walk in integrity;
Pro 2:8 That he may guard the paths of justice, And preserve the way of his saints.
Pro 2:9 Then shalt thou understand righteousness and justice, And equity, yea, every good path.
Pro 2:10 For wisdom shall enter into thy heart, And knowledge shall be pleasant unto thy soul;
Pro 2:11 Discretion shall watch over thee; Understanding shall keep thee:
 
rewriter said:
Just that we need to be careful when we say that "if" means "if and only if". A simple "if" does not rule out other options, it merely indicates that when the designated thing occurs, then one can know what will follow. What follows may or may not occur independently of the first designated thing.
Click to expand...

Well, an example applying this care to the OP Scripture and now to Proverbs 2:1-11 would be helpful.
Thanks.
 
GWH said:
Well, an example applying this care to the OP Scripture and now to Proverbs 2:1-11 would be helpful.
Thanks.
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I will have to take the time to review both the Greek and the Hebrew, but unfortunately what would be best would be to hear from the translators as to why they chose the ambiguous "if".

But Greek grammar can be very tricky as the ancients used so little punctuation. If I remember correctly, it is Colossians 1:20 that can be translated 6 different ways, and 5 of those do appear in different translations, all carrying different meanings
 
rewriter said:
I will have to take the time to review both the Greek and the Hebrew, but unfortunately what would be best would be to hear from the translators as to why they chose the ambiguous "if".

But Greek grammar can be very tricky as the ancients used so little punctuation. If I remember correctly, it is Colossians 1:20 that can be translated 6 different ways, and 5 of those do appear in different translations, all carrying different meanings
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Yes, translating Greek can be tricky, but I have no good reason to doubt that the translators chose "if" because it was the best word,
and conveys the condition that the rest of the words in those "iffy" sentences also connote.
 
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markss said:
What does this part mean to you in context?

Much love!
Click to expand...
God does not change what He commands to fit human expectations. God will judge unbelief, and fulfill promises He has made to those who believe and obey Him.
 
PaulThomson said:
Jesus said -
Luk 12:8 Also I say unto you, Whosoever should end up confessing (aorist active sunbunctive) me before men, him the Son of man shall also be confessing (future active indicative) before the angels of God:
Luk 12:9 But the one having denied me (aorist middle deponent participle) me before men shall be being denied (future passive indicative) before the angels of God.
The aorist is not actually a tense. It is a way of expressing an action or state as a snapshot of the action. It does not indicate whether the action or state was/is/will be momentary, repetitive, or continuous, only that it was, is, or will be happening. Context must determine what kind of action was actually in play.

IMO, Tim 2 means that if Jesus does not deny someone before the Father who is denying Him at that moment, He would have been lying in Luke 12:8-9, and therefore not be faithful to His own word.
Click to expand...

2 Timothy 2:11-13 LITV
11) Faithful is the Word: for if we died with Him, we also shall live with Him;
12) if we endure, we shall also reign with Him; if we deny Him, that One will deny us;
13) if we are unfaithful, that One remains faithful; He is not able to deny Himself.

Luke 12:8-9 LITV
8) But I say to you, Everyone who may confess Me before men, the Son of Man will also confess him before the angels of God.
9) But he that denies me before man shall be denied before the angels of God.

The part I was asking concerning is not about the person who denies Jesus. The previous verse is on that topic, "if we deny Him, that One will deny us".

However, the next bit, "If we are unfaithful", this is not speaking of denying Him, rather, of lacking in faith. Jesus' response is to "remain faithful, for He is not able to deny Himself".

What does it mean that He remains faithful if we are unfaithful, because He cannot deny Himself?

Much love!
 
markss said:
2 Timothy 2:11-13 LITV
11) Faithful is the Word: for if we died with Him, we also shall live with Him;
12) if we endure, we shall also reign with Him; if we deny Him, that One will deny us;
13) if we are unfaithful, that One remains faithful; He is not able to deny Himself.

Luke 12:8-9 LITV
8) But I say to you, Everyone who may confess Me before men, the Son of Man will also confess him before the angels of God.
9) But he that denies me before man shall be denied before the angels of God.

The part I was asking concerning is not about the person who denies Jesus. The previous verse is on that topic, "if we deny Him, that One will deny us".

However, the next bit, "If we are unfaithful", this is not speaking of denying Him, rather, of lacking in faith. Jesus' response is to "remain faithful, for He is not able to deny Himself".

What does it mean that He remains faithful if we are unfaithful, because He cannot deny Himself?

Much love!
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It is unwise to isolate two clauses from their context, and to look for their meaning isolated from their context.

2Ti 2:11 It is a faithful saying -
"For if (A) we died at some point in time with (sunapethanomen, aorist active indicative) him, (B) we shall also be living with (suzEsomen, future active indicative) him in the future:
(If A is true now, then B will also be true in the future)

2Ti 2:12
If (C) we are suffering (hupomenon, present active indicative) now, (D) we shall also be reigning with ( sumbasileusomen, future active imperative) him in the future:
(If C is true now, then D will also be true in the future)

if (E) we are denying (arnoumetha, present passive indicative deponent) him now, (F) he also will be denying (arnEsetai, future middle deponent indicative) us in the future:
(If E is true now, then F also will be true in the future)

2Ti 2:13
If (G) we are being unbelieving/without faith/acting in accord with unbelief, (apistoumen, present active indicative), (H) he is abiding (menei, present active indicative) faithful:
(If G is true now, then H is also true now)” -

(because) He is not able now (ou dunatai, present middle deponent indicative) to deny (arnEsasthai, aorist middle deponent infinitive) himself at this point in time.

The entire statement from 2 Tim 2:11b-13a is one statement “a word (singular)” - that in 2:11a Paul says is faithful.

2 Tim. 2:13b gives the reason that 11-13a is true - because Jesus can never at any point in time break His own word.

So, v. 13 means that whatever Jesus has said about those who are unbelieving, will be true of us at those times that we are unbelieving, because Jesus cannot break the words he spoke about the unbelieving. So, yur question becomes, “What has Jesus said about the the unbelieving in regards to aeonous life?”
 
markss said:
Did anyone say He does?? Not that I saw. So your point is, what?

Much love!
Click to expand...
My post was in response to your inquiring about what my understanding was regarding the last sentence in the scripture.

"Therefore I (Paul) endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: If we deny him, he also will deny us:
If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself."

And as posted, I said, God does not change what He commands to fit human expectations. God will judge unbelief, and fulfill promises He has made to those who believe and obey Him; He cannot deny Himself.
 
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