Three major things the legalistic Pharisees didn't recognize.

[pieman]

A man who does not help himself first cannot help anyone else.

 

[just-me]

The omission of “Judgment” according to the law.

“For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death: But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free. And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother; Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.” Mark 7:10-13

This is a case where people were dedicating a free-will offering with God, called Corban, which should have been used to help their parents. Free-will offerings were accepted according to the law, but not when it broke the 5th commandment to honour their Father and Mother.

“Honour thy father and thy mother” Exodus 20:12a

“Honour thy father and thy mother, as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee” Deuteronomy 5:16a

To show love and mercy to their parents and obedience to the proper judgment and mearcy, revealed in the law, should have been a much higher priority than a free-will offering defined in the law. The Pharisees were exalting relatively minor commandments, and ignoring the more important ones.

“Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.” Matthew 23:24

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

What bad fruit was he or I showing ???
For we are defending all the Word of God and trying to show how others how the Spiritual (moral) aspect still has meaning and importance for today in believers.
If you have been taught doing this is given bad fruit then I would suggest in love you find other teachers, because taking and taking away from the Word of God is dangerous.
Again I will ask you since you have not answered, do you want me to show you in the NT where the 10 Commandments are upheld by new covenant believers ???

You and he are proclaiming another gospel.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This is not new. Expect it.............. particularity when God and His adversary knows you are correct in contending for the faith.

lol.. Yep satan loves both of you..

You are not contending for faith, your contending for the works of men, not the works of God.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Another aspect of what the Pharisees omitted.

We agree that the New Testament is not a system of justification by works of law. But is law in any sense an essential ingredient of the gospel?

Galatians 6:2 - We must fulfill the law of Christ. Christ has a law, and we are expected to fulfill it.

1 Corinthians 9:20,21 - Paul was "not without law to God, but under law to Christ." Some people say we are not under law at all. Paul denies this. He was not under the law Jews were subject to (law of Moses), but this did not mean he was without law. He was still under law to Christ.

Isaiah 2:2,3 - When God established His house (the church - 1 Tim. 3:15), God's law would go forth from Jerusalem. [Acts 2; Luke 24:47]

James 2:8 - Love your neighbor is the royal law. If obedience to law is not required under the New Testament, then love is not required, for love is a law! Love and law do not necessarily conflict. To say love eliminates law is to misunderstand both love and law. [Cf. Rom. 13:8; Gal. 5:14]

1 John 3:4 - Sin is transgression of law. If we are not subject to law, then there can be no such thing as sin. If we are not required to obey law, then it would not matter if we commit sin. Those who claim we are without law are in effect defending sin, for the essence of sin is lawlessness (NKJV).

Yet all people commit sin (1 John 1:8,10; Rom. 3:23). And sin is what we need God's grace to forgive (Eph. 1:7).

If obedience to law is not necessary, then sin is not a problem, and we would not need grace to forgive our sins. To eliminate law is to eliminate our need for grace!

To say obedience is not essential is to belittle our need for grace and for Jesus' death.
[Heb. 8:10; Rom. 3:27; James 1:25; 2:8,12]

Romans 8:7

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. . . .2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law then Christ is dead in vain. . . .3:13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: . . . 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. For if the inheritance be of the law, it is nor more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added till the seed should come to whom the promise was made . . . . 5:4 Christ has become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace . . . 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, [love, (my addition)] even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. . . 6:2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith . . . .

 

[Grandpa]

What bad fruit was he or I showing ???

For we are defending all the Word of God and trying to show how others how the Spiritual (moral) aspect still has meaning and importance for today in believers.

If you have been taught doing this is given bad fruit then I would suggest in love you find other teachers, because taking and taking away from the Word of God is dangerous.

Again I will ask you since you have not answered, do you want me to show you in the NT where the 10 Commandments are upheld by new covenant believers ???

Which of the fruit of the Spirit would be considered not upholding the 10 Commandments?

Which of the fruit of the Spirit are you producing by your works of morality? Or your observance of Torah?

 

[just-me]

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. . . .2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law then Christ is dead in vain. . . .3:13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: . . . 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. For if the inheritance be of the law, it is nor more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added till the seed should come to whom the promise was made . . . . 5:4 Christ has become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace . . . 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, [love, (my addition)] even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. . . 6:2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith . . . .

I like quoted scripture for it doesn't refute other scriptures. If we think that some scripture is opposed to other things written in the scriptures, we are incorrect because God is never incorrect. With that said, what you quoted of me in the scriptures that I quoted match perfectly with the scriptures you quote. (smile)

 

[KennethC]

You and he are proclaiming another gospel.

Wrong for we at no point have said the physical ordinances of the Mosaic law has to be obeyed for salvation.

Please go and do a in depth study of what the LAW is being referred to, as it is the written form of ordinances with physical consequences. It is not referring to the Spiritual or moral aspect behind it, as the Galatians were called out because of seeking justification by trying to keep the written ordinances and not seeking that justification through Jesus and His way !!!

We are not seeking justification by the law, as we are seeking justification through Christ by out of obedience in love we uphold His teachings and commands as the bible clearly says believers under grace will do !!!

Again do you want me to show you where the 10 commandments are still upheld in the new covenant ???

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Wrong for we at no point have said the physical ordinances of the Mosaic law has to be obeyed for salvation.

Please go and do a in depth study of what the LAW is being referred to, as it is the written form of ordinances with physical consequences. It is not referring to the Spiritual or moral aspect behind it, as the Galatians were called out because of seeking justification by trying to keep the written ordinances and not seeking that justification through Jesus and His way !!!

We are not seeking justification by the law, as we are seeking justification through Christ by out of obedience in love we uphold His teachings and commands as the bible clearly says believers under grace will do !!!

Again do you want me to show you where the 10 commandments are still upheld in the new covenant ???

they still will not save you. Because you still can't uphold them according to Gods standard.

Nor will they show you HOW to be righteous (morally good)

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Wrong for we at no point have said the physical ordinances of the Mosaic law has to be obeyed for salvation.

Sophistry and equivocation. Yet you do say that obedience is following the law. How can we be saved if we are not obedient?

 

[peacefulbeliever]

I like quoted scripture for it doesn't refute other scriptures. If we think it should, or if we think it does, we are incorrect because God is never incorrect.

Sometimes it does . . . I did look for verses with the "law of Christ" or "law" and "Christ" but I only used those relative to each other - not just willy nilly quoting scripture. All these verses say that the law does not justify or make us righteousness but IF I had used Deut. 6:25 then I would have set up a contradiction for it says that the law "shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do ALL these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded" - that was true for the children of Israel BUT not for the church, the body of Christ. Our righteousness is through faith in Jesus Christ and ONLY through faith in Jesus Christ - then our walk within the body begins and THAT is fulfilled through LOVE because we when LOVE we will not do things that are displeasing or offensive to God and others.

 

[just-me]

Wrong for we at no point have said the physical ordinances of the Mosaic law has to be obeyed for salvation.

Please go and do a in depth study of what the LAW is being referred to, as it is the written form of ordinances with physical consequences. It is not referring to the Spiritual or moral aspect behind it, as the Galatians were called out because of seeking justification by trying to keep the written ordinances and not seeking that justification through Jesus and His way !!!

We are not seeking justification by the law, as we are seeking justification through Christ by out of obedience in love we uphold His teachings and commands as the bible clearly says believers under grace will do !!!

Again do you want me to show you where the 10 commandments are still upheld in the new covenant ???

Oh heck. Just ignore the redundant refutations, and then let us talk about where judgment, mercy and faith is found in the law since there seems to be a clear cut fear of others wanting to do that. Deal?

Page 17, and no one except myself (by quoting scripture) has wanted this to be conversed, even though I supposedly quoted scripture out of context. (say what??? LOL)

Do the refuters of this post compare themselves with the Pharisees that rejected God's Word or something? Or do they think we are? No worry.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Sometimes it does . . . I did look for verses with the "law of Christ" or "law" and "Christ" but I only used those relative to each other - not just willy nilly quoting scripture. All these verses say that the law does not justify or make us righteousness but IF I had used Deut. 6:25 then I would have set up a contradiction for it says that the law "shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do ALL these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded" - that was true for the children of Israel BUT not for the church, the body of Christ. Our righteousness is through faith in Jesus Christ and ONLY through faith in Jesus Christ - then our walk within the body begins and THAT is fulfilled through LOVE because we when LOVE we will not do things that are displeasing or offensive to God and others.

if we look at deut 6:25 it would not have contradicted you.

For it says

"the law "shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do ALL these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded"

If we would (could) do this, we would be perfect. so the law COULD be our righteousness.

 

[just-me]

Sometimes it does . . . I did look for verses with the "law of Christ" or "law" and "Christ" but I only used those relative to each other - not just willy nilly quoting scripture. All these verses say that the law does not justify or make us righteousness but IF I had used Deut. 6:25 then I would have set up a contradiction for it says that the law "shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do ALL these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded" - that was true for the children of Israel BUT not for the church, the body of Christ. Our righteousness is through faith in Jesus Christ and ONLY through faith in Jesus Christ - then our walk within the body begins and THAT is fulfilled through LOVE because we when LOVE we will not do things that are displeasing or offensive to God and others.

I see. You believe some of God's words are in conflict with other things He has said. Jesus said a kingdom like that won't stand.

 

[KennethC]

Which of the fruit of the Spirit would be considered not upholding the 10 Commandments?

Which of the fruit of the Spirit are you producing by your works of morality? Or your observance of Torah?

[h=1]Galatians 5:22-26[/h]22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

The above list shows if you are walking in the Spirit, and Apostle John in 1 John shows that if these are now how you walk then the Truth, eternal life, and love of God is not in that person.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Galatians 5:22-26

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

The above list shows if you are walking in the Spirit, and Apostle John in 1 John shows that if these are now how you walk then the Truth, eternal life, and love of God is not in that person.

So a child. born of the spirit and empowered by the spirit. Can totally ignore the spirit. Can totally ignore his chastening? can totaly withstand him, and overpower him, so he would not do ANY of these fruits of the spirit?

You give men far to much power. and God is just a weak human in your faulty belief.

 

[KennethC]

Sophistry and equivocation. Yet you do say that obedience is following the law. How can we be saved if we are not obedient?

I never said that either as again you need to understand to rightfully divide the written from the moral !!!

Even the Jews stated the 10 commandments are both in written ordinance form and also separated them in the moral aspect to. The 613 written ordinances of the Mosaic laws are not upheld in the NT, but the moral aspect of the 10 Commandments are !!!

Again I can show you if you wish to learn, or we can go our separate ways ???

 

[just-me]

Hey Ken.
Here is what the refuters said was out of context to the OP. What do you think?

Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honor the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour. Leviticus 19:15

And Moses came and told the people all the words of the Lord, and all the judgments: and all the people answered with one voice, and said, All the words which the Lord hath said will we do. Exodus 24:3
Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment. John 7:24

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law,judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. Matthew 23:23
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Thou in thy mercy hast led forth the people which thou hast redeemed: thou hast guided them in thy strength unto thy holy habitation. Exodus 15:13

And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. Exodus 12:6

And thou shalt put the mercy seat upon the ark of the testimony in the most holy place. Exodus 26:34

Know therefore that the Lord thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations; Deuteronomy 7:9

For the Lord is good; his mercy is everlasting; and his truth endureth to all generations. Psalm 100:5

Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy. Matthew 5:7

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law,judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.Matthew 23:23
.................................................. ...........
Know therefore that the Lord thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations; Deuteronomy 7:9

And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith. Deuteronomy 32:20

And I will raise me up a faithful priest, that shall do according to that which is in mine heart and in my mind: and I will build him a sure house; and he shall walk before mine anointed for ever. 1 Samuel 2:35

Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith. Habakkuk 2:4

And he said unto them, Why are ye so fearful? how is it that ye have no faith? Mark 4:40

And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God. Mark 11:22

And when he saw their faith, he said unto him, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee. Luke 5:20

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Romans 3:28

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.Matthew 23:23

 

[BenFTW]

Oh heck. Just ignore the redundant refutations, and then let us talk about where judgment, mercy and faith is found in the law since there seems to be a clear cut fear of others wanting to do that. Deal?

Page 17, and no one except myself (by quoting scripture) has wanted this to be conversed, even though I supposedly quoted scripture out of context. (say what??? LOL)

Do the refuters of this post compare themselves with the Pharisees that rejected God's Word or something? Or do they think we are? No worry.

Did I not stay on topic and ask questions, that you ignored? Did I not bring up scripture pointing out the three things Jesus revealed to the Pharisees? Did I not ask you, what was the purpose behind this thread, so that we may see what edification can be found in it? Did I not do all these things and you ignore me, cutting off all communication that could lead to edification? No one can stay on topic or discuss it because you are ignoring those trying to engage in conversation.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

if we look at deut 6:25 it would not have contradicted you.

For it says

"the law "shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do ALL these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded"

If we would (could) do this, we would be perfect. so the law COULD be our righteousness.

This is interesting. I checked this verse in the Septuagint (LXX) and it says:

And there shall be mercy to us, if we take heed to keep all these commands before the Lord our God, as he has commanded us. Deuteronomy 6:25​

This version makes more sense than the other one. Now it's well known among people who have studied the matter that the Masoretic Text (MT) has been changed in various places. The apostles' quoting of OT scripture that align with the LXX but differ from the MT proves that.

Was this verse changed to appeal to the mindset of law keepers?