Tired of the Big LIE

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longtrekker said:
The_highwayman said:
TULIP is an acronym for what...? (there are over 1,400 posts - wow!! - i don't want to trace back and get bogged down...)
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Basically, Calvinism is known by an acronym: T.U.L.I.P.
Total Depravity (also known as Total Inability and Original Sin)
Unconditional Election
Limited Atonement (also known as Particular Atonement)
Irresistible Grace
Perseverance of the Saints (also known as Once Saved Always Saved)
​
These five categories do not comprise Calvinism in totality. They simply represent some of its main points
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Jeff_56 said:
The_highwayman said:
that's an understatement. every step of it has been totally proven false, yet .... people keep getting tripped on it to everyone's shame. (see the multitude of proofs elsewhere on the web.... it's not
worth the time here even to post this much, unless someone is drowning in it and really wants help!...)
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The church that Jesus set up has from the beginning been ridiculed and persecuted from the time it was established until the present day. Heb 10:32-33, But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated,(converted) ye endured a great fight of afflictions, Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions, and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used. If you are still trying to prove it false, explain John 6:39 to me. Jesus said that he came down from heaven to do his Father's will, and says, this is the Father's will that of "all he has given me" I should lose nothing, but raise it up at the last day. I believe this passage to mean Jesus died for the sins only of those that God gave him and not for all mankind. How do you interpret this verse?
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forsha said:
The_highwayman said:
If it seems to be a lie, explain your interpretation of John 6:39.
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Unlike Calvinists I prefer not to cherry pick one verse to support my false teaching, I strive for context....So if oyu add Vs 40 to this, the complete picture emerges...

John 6.39-40 says:
[SUP]39 [/SUP]And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
[SUP]40 [/SUP]And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

When you begin to add more verses, instead of using one then the doctrine of unconditional election begins to fall apart and quickly.

I will pray for you that at 80 someone will cross your path to show you the truth....
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forsha said:
Jeff_56 said:
The church that Jesus set up has from the beginning been ridiculed and persecuted from the time it was established until the present day. Heb 10:32-33, But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated,(converted) ye endured a great fight of afflictions, Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions, and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used. If you are still trying to prove it false, explain John 6:39 to me. Jesus said that he came down from heaven to do his Father's will, and says, this is the Father's will that of "all he has given me" I should lose nothing, but raise it up at the last day. I believe this passage to mean Jesus died for the sins only of those that God gave him and not for all mankind. How do you interpret this verse?
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By reading verse 40, which completely refutes that God only picked some to be saved and some not...
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The_highwayman said:
longtrekker said:
Basically, Calvinism is known by an acronym: T.U.L.I.P.
Total Depravity (also known as Total Inability and Original Sin)
Unconditional Election
Limited Atonement (also known as Particular Atonement)
Irresistible Grace
Perseverance of the Saints (also known as Once Saved Always Saved)
​
These five categories do not comprise Calvinism in totality. They simply represent some of its main points
Click to expand...


Thankyou for taking the time to reply.
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readers note that the quotes from 1422 1425 and 1428 seem like the quote function didn't work,
or I or another poster/ in quoting, edited it somehow unforeseen..... (i don't know how it happened -
just the quotes aren't right).
 
The_highwayman said:
forsha said:
TULIP is a lie from hell...
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I agree for sure....there are numerous scriptures that contradict this heresy.......God is fair and his ways are true and rightous.....The grace of God that brinds salvation has (shined down ) appeared unto ALL men....He would have ALL men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth and John 3:16 states clearly that he died for the whole order of things (the world).....and he has dealt to every man a measure of faith (the ability to believe).......
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dcontroversal said:
The_highwayman said:
I agree for sure....there are numerous scriptures that contradict this heresy.......God is fair and his ways are true and rightous.....The grace of God that brinds salvation has (shined down ) appeared unto ALL men....He would have ALL men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth and John 3:16 states clearly that he died for the whole order of things (the world).....and he has dealt to every man a measure of faith (the ability to believe).......
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Yeah.. and also not every person who believes in once saved always saved is a calvinist.

Once saved always saved does not equal all the Calvinism is. Like the TULIP has it.. it's not just that teaching.

Too often when you look at these forums or polls.. someone who says they believe in eternal security-- someone will always come in and say they are Calvinist.. or assume they believe the Calvinist version of once saved always saved.

The calvinist version of it isn't really once saved always saved.. because they believe a believer WILL do good works.. WILL persevere until the end.

A person may honestly believe in Jesus Christ and then struggle with sin.. I know a lot of calvinists will say they were never saved to begin with!

That's not once saved always saved at all.

But anyways.. guess this has all been thrashed out to the max now.
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The_highwayman said:
forsha said:
Unlike Calvinists I prefer not to cherry pick one verse to support my false teaching, I strive for context....So if oyu add Vs 40 to this, the complete picture emerges...

John 6.39-40 says:
[SUP]39 [/SUP]And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
[SUP]40 [/SUP]And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

When you begin to add more verses, instead of using one then the doctrine of unconditional election begins to fall apart and quickly.

I will pray for you that at 80 someone will cross your path to show you the truth....
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And in verse 40, who do you think are the ones that sees the Son, and believes on him? If you stay in context it is "those that God gave to Jesus". The truth only comes by the revelation of the Holy Spirit, not by some man.
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dcontroversal said:
The_highwayman said:
I agree for sure....there are numerous scriptures that contradict this heresy.......God is fair and his ways are true and rightous.....The grace of God that brinds salvation has (shined down ) appeared unto ALL men....He would have ALL men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth and John 3:16 states clearly that he died for the whole order of things (the world).....and he has dealt to every man a measure of faith (the ability to believe).......
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If God would have all mankind to be eternally saved, why are not all mankind eternally saved according to Dan 4:35? I guess you are including the carnal man in 1 Cor 2:14 as having the measure of faith even though he can not discern spiritual things, is not faith a spiritual thing? If Jesus died for all mankind, according to Dan 4:35 all mankind will be saved eternally, is that what you think?
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Forsha-- all mankind.. as in eternal salvation is available to absolutely anyone who entrust their salvation with Jesus. Not that He has already automatically saved every single person on the planet.

Anyhoo. DC can reply for himself I am sure :)
 
wattie said:
Forsha-- all mankind.. as in eternal salvation is available to absolutely anyone who entrust their salvation with Jesus. Not that He has already automatically saved every single person on the planet.

Anyhoo. DC can reply for himself I am sure :)
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Can the carnal man in 1 Cor 2:14 be included in "anyone who entrusts their salvation with Jesus", even though he can not discern spiritual things? No, God does not save all mankind, but God could save all mankind if he wanted to(Dan 4:35) but he did not because he does not love all mankind(Heb 12:6-7) For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth. If I find in the scriptures a man that is not chastened by God, would not that be because he does not love him? Ps 73:5, They are not in trouble as other men; neither are they Plagued(Strongs Greek interpretation = chastened) like other men. Romans 9:13, As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. Jesus did not die for all mankind, but only those that God gave to him John 6:39. Christ's sacrifice on the cross was an offering to God, It was a sacrifice for those that God gave him to redeem them back to God. It was not an offering to man for man's acceptance, but to God for God's acceptance. Eph 5:2, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice "to God". It was for man's sins, not an offering for man to accept, but an offering for God to accept.
 
forsha said:
Can the carnal man in 1 Cor 2:14 be included in "anyone who entrusts their salvation with Jesus", even though he can not discern spiritual things? No, God does not save all mankind, but God could save all mankind if he wanted to(Dan 4:35) but he did not because he does not love all mankind(Heb 12:6-7) For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth. If I find in the scriptures a man that is not chastened by God, would not that be because he does not love him? Ps 73:5, They are not in trouble as other men; neither are they Plagued(Strongs Greek interpretation = chastened) like other men. Romans 9:13, As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. Jesus did not die for all mankind, but only those that God gave to him John 6:39. Christ's sacrifice on the cross was an offering to God, It was a sacrifice for those that God gave him to redeem them back to God. It was not an offering to man for man's acceptance, but to God for God's acceptance. Eph 5:2, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice "to God". It was for man's sins, not an offering for man to accept, but an offering for God to accept.
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1.

Joh_3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh_3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

2.

1Jn_5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.


3.
Act_10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

4.

Rom_10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. (Also the rest of Romans 10 goes on about this further) --- Rom_10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.


5.

Rom_9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.


It goes on and on.. believe in Jesus Christ-- saved.. given eternal life.


Predestination is about God predestining a place in heaven for anyone who believes in Jesus. Also God has pre-destined His institution of the local church as a place for a saved person to learn and grow in Jesus Christ.

Not predestining some to heaven and some to hell.

And as others have posted.. gotta look at all the verses surrounding John 6:39 and Ephesians 5:2.. they don't stand alone. You can also apply this to verses I have put in here above.
 
wattie said:
Forsha-- all mankind.. as in eternal salvation is available to absolutely anyone who entrust their salvation with Jesus. Not that He has already automatically saved every single person on the planet.

Anyhoo. DC can reply for himself I am sure :)
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Exactly....it is open to all, but only applied unto those who exercise genuine saving faith.....many scriptures prove this truth.....
 
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