To comfort those who speak in tongues

[beingJustifiedFreely]

Only if it is done in the wrong manner as Paul gives us the correct way they are to be used.

In post #38 I gave scriptures from the bible that shows those gifts still are in affect in the days we live in now.
Just because some churches misuse how this gift is to be done, and what they are doing with making those babbling noises in church is not the tongues spoken of in the bible, does not mean they do not exist still.

I agree that there is the misrepresented of these gifts done today, but the true gifts do still exist and are done today as the bible clearly says. To keep saying they don't you would have to do away with the scriptures I mentioned in post #38.

Those verses are about the last days duringnthe tribulation, not these last days. The prophetic program was put on hold to usher in God's mystery truth program. Satan alsonhas his own mystery of iniquity program. We walk by faith, NOT BY SIGHT

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

I can only explain what I believe and the same goes for others . . . There are some that disagree and believe that the completed scripture is "that which is perfect is come" - and they see that scripture "face to face" - I have seen and dealt with it before and probably will again and again . . . I just see I differently - I see "that which is perfect is come" as being Jesus Christ because that is who I will see "face to face" - not a page on a book.

I understand this view, PB, but I must ask if you are aware that in the phrase "when the perfect comes," the word teleioß (teleios) is used for the word "perfect"? It is the same word in Jesus' declaration from the cross "It is finished!" It is a uniquely Greek construct of a sentence in that the word "perfect" is an adjective that has no noun present to modify, but is used as though to define a neuter noun, not masculine as all references to Jesus are in the New Testament.

It is the word also used for "complete" in the New Testament. Jesus is not a "the" or an "it" so this phrase can't have to do with Jesus. As verse nine before it refers to knowing (knowledge) and prophecy, we must see this phrase as an explanation of why they will be done away with.

Something better and more permanent is coming, as "the partial will be done away with." meroß (meros) is translated "partial" and means a portion of, or in measure of, or to a degree being part of a whole. There is no way that can describe Jesus. He is not just a portion of something, He is everything.

This has to refer to the written word, in its completeness. There is nothing else it can be. The first letter to Corinth was written in about 62 AD. In 96AD, with the Revelation of John, the complete written word would exist. By then, Paul is saying -- though obviously he didn't know who or when that involved, just that it was coming -- the signs-and-wonders gifts would cease because they would no longer be necessary.

And I reiterate that this opinion does not negate the absolute power of the Holy Spirit. He can do whatever He wants, whenever He wants. But as whole, He no longer needs to empower these gifts because we have the revelation of God through the recorded works of the Bible. A miraculous understanding between foreigners, the implanting of the truth in the heart of the unbeliever, even the miraculous healing are within His power.

No doubt He has done them in the 1900+ years since John finished the written Word, but only very, very rarely, and not when believers communicate. There is no need. They have understanding, they have knowledge, they have the Holy Spirit. They don't need anything else.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

As I said in another post responding to Ember, the Holy Spirit can do anything He wants to do, including giving understanding between people who do not speak the same language, or supernaturally implanting the knowledge of truth into the heart of an unbeliever who has never heard the Gospel before. But the practice of tongues in the churches that do so today mirrors almost exactly the events Paul condemned in 1 Corinthians 12-14, and yet they deny that to be the case.

I understand the above as I have seen in most churches where tongues is not done in accordance with the correction Paul instituted in 1 Cor. 14 . . . how they (the manifestation of the Spirit) should be conducted in the church, i.e. done unto edifying and decently and in order. . .which has been to the detriment of this whole subject.

They claim if they have interpreters and its OK to speak tongues. But they either do not understand, or they ignore the meaning, of Paul's explanatory statement midway chapter 12 of his second letter to Corinth.

2 Corinthians 12. NASB
12 The signs of a true apostle were performed among you with all perseverance, by signs and wonders and miracles.​

Put that together with Peter's defining statement of the qualifications of an apostle ...

Acts 1
21 "Therefore it is necessary that of the men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us-
22 beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us-one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection." ​

... and it is evident that the signs-and-wonders gifts were temporary and, from what we see of Paul's admonitions to the Corinthians, the fact he left Trophimus ill without healing him, and that prophecy and knowledge were no longer verbal in nature as they were being recorded for posterity, we begin to see that the Holy Spirit was changing the way He related to believers.

I don't see where speaking in tongues has anything to do with being an "apostle". I don't claim to be an apostle but I claim that as a believer indwelt with the gift of holy Spirit that I am able to manifest that gift of holy Spirit.

He no longer needed apostles, as the word of the Gospel had spread to the ends of the Earth by the end of the first century. Therefore, he also didn't need the confirming gifts that He gave the apostles to prove to the Diaspora -- the Jewish people scatter throughout the world since the fall of Judah and Israel 800 years earlier -- that their message was, indeed, from God.

Absolutely! In fact, I think we can safely say that the gifts I normally talk about -- tongues, prophecy and knowledge, and healing -- were just three of the temporary gifts given in the beginning of the faith. Apostleship would be another, and the "discerning of spirits" which gave the ability to distinguish false teachers from true ones. We now have the written word to do so.

The nine permanent gifts that remain active today, and will until Christ returns, are teaching, helps, faith, exhortation, administration, giving, mercy, preaching/teaching, and evangelism. These are still very necessary, perhaps today more than ever, since the church as a whole seems to have forgotten how to do many of them.

I don't know if this is necessarily true "Gospel had spread to the ends of the Earth by the end of the first century", but it has no relevance here.

Anyway, I believe that in Acts the pouring out of the gift of holy Spirit which was manifested (shown forth) as speaking in tongues unknown to the apostles . . . but known by those present was to show forth the infilling of the gift of holy Spirit, i.e. the baptism of the holy Spirit.

I believe that the gift of holy Spirit has nine manifestations and is given to every man (believer in Christ) for profit. (1 Cor. 12:7) These manifestations help us in our daily walk with God . . . in immediate individual personal situations and circumstances we may find ourselves in . . . I want God to talk with me and give me advice that I may need in an immediate situation with a word of knowledge or word of wisdom . . .

Thanks for your explanations . . .

 

[KennethC]

Those verses are about the last days duringnthe tribulation, not these last days. The prophetic program was put on hold to usher in God's mystery truth program. Satan alsonhas his own mystery of iniquity program. We walk by faith, NOT BY SIGHT

Those scriptures are not talking about just the tribulation period, as they clearly say when the Holy Spirit is given.

The Holy Spirit is taken out of the way during the tribulation so that the man of sin can be revealed (2 Thessalonians 2:6), and we know it is speaking of the Holy Spirit because it says He.

The Church and Israel both are not mentioned in the masculine since, for they are called the woman, bride, and other feminine words such as she and her.

Nowhere in scripture does it say those gifts were put on hold !!!

 

[Utah]

There's more tongues on CC than my dating scene.

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

I don't see where speaking in tongues has anything to do with being an "apostle". I don't claim to be an apostle but I claim that as a believer indwelt with the gift of holy Spirit that I am able to manifest that gift of holy Spirit.

Those verses I cited explain what it has to do with being an apostle. Peter explains that to be an apostle, one must have accompanied Jesus from the time of the baptism of John until His crucifixion and resurrection, and the signs of an apostle were the signs-and-wonders gifts. The admonitions Paul gives to the Corinthians raise the question as to whether or not they should have ever begun practicing gifts that were not specifically for the regular believer. They were only confirming signs of the messengers of Christ taking the Gospel to Gentiles and the Diaspora Jews.

I don't know if this is necessarily true "Gospel had spread to the ends of the Earth by the end of the first century", but it has no relevance here.

I'm sorry, I'm obviously failing at making myself clear. My apologies. The point is, the Diaspora hadn't heard this new message, and would need it confirmed before they would believe it. They knew the miracles God had worked through Moses and the prophets. Seeing many of those same signs and wonders worked by the apostles convinced them they spoke for God.

Anyway, I believe that in Acts the pouring out of the gift of holy Spirit which was manifested (shown forth) as speaking in tongues unknown to the apostles . . . but known by those present was to show forth the infilling of the gift of holy Spirit, i.e. the baptism of the holy Spirit.

I agree. We can see the confirming nature of that baptism of fire, which fell on the apostles only -- many misread that passage and think all 120 present spoke in tongues, but the meeting at the end of Acts 1 involved only the 12, including the newest among them, Matthias. They were in the upper room. No way 120 people fit in one small room of a first-century Jerusalem house. This "baptism" was the arrival of, the first indwelling by, the Holy Spirit in history, other than John the Baptist.

I believe that the gift of holy Spirit has nine manifestations and is given to every man (believer in Christ) for profit. (1 Cor. 12:7) These manifestations help us in our daily walk with God . . . in immediate individual personal situations and circumstances we may find ourselves in . . . I want God to talk with me and give me advice that I may need in an immediate situation with a word of knowledge or word of wisdom . . .

Thanks for your explanations . . .

You are most welcome, my sister. God bless.

 

[VioletReigns]

Those verses are about the last days duringnthe tribulation, not these last days. The prophetic program was put on hold to usher in God's mystery truth program. Satan alsonhas his own mystery of iniquity program. We walk by faith, NOT BY SIGHT

You joined CC only yesterday and with your very first comment proclaimed you’re offended in the “God Bless You” thread. And in your additional comments you aggressively accuse Christians here of:
being fools
unstable
unlearned
ignorant
in danger of being condemned
reading “satanic counterfeits” of the Bible
sinners

And yet you say of yourself, “I stand for the truth. I preach the word without compromise.” (Self-righteous much?)

You entered this site with boxing gloves on, not to fellowship with God’s children, not to share and encourage, but to condemn and contend with. It’s obvious to everyone here that you have your own agenda and that is to lord over others with legalism and wrath. You admittedly said of yourself, “I follow my apostle [Paul], whom God COMMANDED me to follow.”

I thought Jesus said, “Follow Me.”????

Your belief is that God told us to read Romans first. Well Buddy, it’s MY belief that God was talking directly to YOU because it says in Romans, “There is therefore now no more condemnation in Christ Jesus.” What you’re doing on this site is directly opposed to that truth. Condemnation is ALL you’re preaching.

You’ve been a member of this site less than 12 hours and have vehemently posted about 40 comments actively accusing others and contending with their faith and all the while testifying that you are a righteous follower of Paul.

You will not last on this site, and I’ll tell you why. We get your type in here all the time, jumping onto this site ready to war against God’s people with self-righteous anger. You have no interest in fellowship or praying for others or showing mercy to the brethren. And if you don’t have love, you’re just a loud noise. Your house of cards is sinking in the sand. I’m not going to communicate with you any further because you won’t receive it from me. But the Lord Himself will dispose of your wrath on this site and I’ll just wait it out until He does.

Of course, you do have the option of repenting of your anger and making things right. And that’s between you and God.

 

[Galatians2-20]

I know for a fact, through the writings of the early Church fathers that, while not as prevalent as they were the 1st century a.d., the Spiritual gifts continued on into the 2nd & 3rd centuries up until the creation of Amillennislism by the orthodox church in the 4th century. Cessationism, the belief that gifts have ceased, is a central component of Amillennislism, better known as Catholic eschatology.

 

[KennethC]

Those verses I cited explain what it has to do with being an apostle. Peter explains that to be an apostle, one must have accompanied Jesus from the time of the baptism of John until His crucifixion and resurrection, and the signs of an apostle were the signs-and-wonders gifts. The admonitions Paul gives to the Corinthians raise the question as to whether or not they should have ever begun practicing gifts that were not specifically for the regular believer. They were only confirming signs of the messengers of Christ taking the Gospel to Gentiles and the Diaspora Jews.

I'm sorry, I'm obviously failing at making myself clear. My apologies. The point is, the Diaspora hadn't heard this new message, and would need it confirmed before they would believe it. They knew the miracles God had worked through Moses and the prophets. Seeing many of those same signs and wonders worked by the apostles convinced them they spoke for God.

I agree. We can see the confirming nature of that baptism of fire, which fell on the apostles only -- many misread that passage and think all 120 present spoke in tongues, but the meeting at the end of Acts 1 involved only the 12, including the newest among them, Matthias. They were in the upper room. No way 120 people fit in one small room of a first-century Jerusalem house. This "baptism" was the arrival of, the first indwelling by, the Holy Spirit in history, other than John
the Baptist.

You are most welcome, my sister. God bless.

That is completely not true and is a misinterpretation of that scripture from Peter, because the bible clearly shows some that became Apostles later under the guidance of Peter and Paul. They were not with Jesus at His baptism and crucifixion, but they were still added to an Apostle later.

Such as those as Barnabas, Timothy, Silvanius, and a number of others who were not mentioned by name by were said were made Apostles to.

Apostle Paul was not with the Lord at His baptism and crucifixion !!!

At that time Paul was know by his other name as the Pharisee Saul, who persecuted and responsible for killing other Christians.

 

[convallaria]

Out-of-context usage.

Romans 11, NASB
28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers;
29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

​

Paul is talking about the gift of salvation, not the gifts of the Spirit.

Gifts plural as in gifts of the Spirit plural, not as you say here, the gift (singular) of salvation. You subtracted an "S" to make your doctrine look right.

 

[KennethC]

I know for a fact, through the writings of the early Church fathers that, while not as prevalent as they were the 1st century a.d., the Spiritual gifts continued on into the 2nd & 3rd centuries up until the creation of Amillennislism by the orthodox church in the 4th century. Cessationism, the belief that gifts have ceased, is a central component of Amillennislism, better known as Catholic eschatology.

Yes but that just shows the corruption that happened within the Church to misuse the spiritual gifts of the Holy Spirit.
It does not show that they ended just that the whole context of God's ways will always try to be corrupted by the evil one through some. This is a bad time we live in as the corruption and defiling of His word is so bad right now that the teachings I hear all over the place take away obedience in the faith, and that we don't have to repent and get baptized any more is being taught. It's sad really !!!

 

[WoundedWarrior]

Ahh ok but do be careful please because if God's word says it, you can trust it to be true...and according to His word, God has not changed His mind about the gifts as follows:

Romans 11:29
For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Blessings, C.

Out-of-context usage.

Romans 11, NASB
28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers;
29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
​
​

Paul is talking about the gift of salvation, not the gifts of the Spirit.

I read a lot of commentary today on Romans 11:29 and here's where I am landing:

"God’s gifts of grace, and His calling, are things upon which there is no going back."
----

I believe that the gift of holy Spirit has nine manifestations and is given to every man (believer in Christ) for profit. (1 Cor. 12:7) These manifestations help us in our daily walk with God . . . in immediate individual personal situations and circumstances we may find ourselves in . . . I want God to talk with me and give me advice that I may need in an immediate situation with a word of knowledge or word of wisdom . . .

I also read commentary on 1 Corinthians 12:7 -- but I am not finding an answer to the question: "Is the the gift of tongues a 'dead' gift?" It seems, to me, that the (12:7) emphasis is on communicating the idea that these gifts originate from one source (God) and benefit one source (His Church). One study refers to these gifts as a 'universal gift' -- meaning all who receive the Spirit receive this 'universal gift', which 'manifests' in various ways. I don't see anything here (1 Cor 12:7) that leads me to believe the gift of tongues is still alive -- or dead.
----
Now onto Kenny's (Acts 2:17, Joel 2:28, and Isaiah 44:3, Revelation 11:3) verses...
----
But, first, a side note:

I know for a fact, through the writings of the early Church fathers that, while not as prevalent as they were the 1st century a.d., the Spiritual gifts continued on into the 2nd & 3rd centuries up until the creation of Amillennislism by the orthodox church in the 4th century. Cessationism, the belief that gifts have ceased, is a central component of Amillennislism, better known as Catholic eschatology.

Hello, Galatians2-20 - Truly I wish I could simply take your word for it -- but can you provide some sort of evidence (or source) to support this statement? By "early Church fathers" do you mean those such as Paul (and his letters to the Corinthians) as we have been discussing?
----
Thanks to everyone, btw!

 

[Galatians2-20]

Yes but that just shows the corruption that happened within the Church to misuse the spiritual gifts of the Holy Spirit.
It does not show that they ended just that the whole context of God's ways will always try to be corrupted by the evil one through some. This is a bad time we live in as the corruption and defiling of His word is so bad right now that the teachings I hear all over the place take away obedience in the faith, and that we don't have to repent and get baptized any more is being taught. It's sad really !!!

I'm sorry Kenneth but your response shows just how little you actually know about actual church history. From 70 ad until the establishment of the Roman Catholic Church, Christians were severely persecuted. Most "churches" were illegal and met in secret. The reason why not many talked about the Spiritual gifts is because they last thing that they wanted to do is draw attention to themselves.

 

[Galatians2-20]

I read a lot of commentary today on Romans 11:29 and here's where I am landing:

"God’s gifts of grace, and His calling, are things upon which there is no going back."
----


I also read commentary on 1 Corinthians 12:7 -- but I am not finding an answer to the question: "Is the the gift of tongues a 'dead' gift?" It seems, to me, that the (12:7) emphasis is on communicating the idea that these gifts originate from one source (God) and benefit one source (His Church). One study refers to these gifts as a 'universal gift' -- meaning all who receive the Spirit receive this 'universal gift', which 'manifests' in various ways. I don't see anything here (1 Cor 12:7) that leads me to believe the gift of tongues is still alive -- or dead.
----
Now onto Kenny's (Acts 2:17, Joel 2:28, and Isaiah 44:3, Revelation 11:3) verses...
----
But, first, a side note:



Hello, Galatians2-20 - Truly I wish I could simply take your word for it -- but can you provide some sort of evidence (or source) to support this statement? By "early Church fathers" do you mean those such as Paul (and his letters to the Corinthians) as we have been discussing?
----
Thanks to everyone, btw!

Wounded, would you be interested in your own digital copy of the collected works of the Early Church Fathers? I have a vast collection of books, both in print and digital, if you are interested.

 

[atwhatcost]

To comfort those who speak in tongues

2 Tim 1:6 Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands.
This scripture is referring to many of the good things gifted by the Lord to His children. But one thing we know for sure is that to stir up the gift of God in us includes the gift of tongues.


Perhaps you received that gift a few years back but have not used it since? The word says we are to stir it up, not being fearful, but confident that what God accomplishes by His Spirit in us is far better than anything dreamed up by the schemes of the flesh of man.
Picture a vessel of new wine, in which the yeast has settled like a layer of clay in the bottom. If you stir up the wine including the yeast deposit you will soon see the bubbles gathering into a whoosh of foam, a surge of activity which multiplies into an active principal once more, no more settled back on its lees.


The deposit of God is a gift within us. Let us not disappoint Him by leaving His gift to settle motionless and inactive. The time is now to stir up that gift and pour forth the effervescence of new wine, which is of joy and of love and of power in the Holy Spirit.

If we are born again we have our new wineskins. Fill us up Lord so that we may pour forth, for Your glory, in Jesus’ Name, amen.

Pffft! This was never about comforting those who speak in tongues. They get their comfort from God. All believers understand that. This was about you attacking those who don't speak in tongues. Get real!

And your new wine-skin is the same make and model as the world's wine-skin. Your wine is vinegar.

(This teddy bear has teeth.)

 

[convallaria]

At my first reading I took it to mean that "those who practice them, (tongues) which is sin" . . meaning those that practice speaking in tongues are sinning. After his explanation I can see where he meant the self-glorification was the sin not the tongues . . . and I have no reason to believe that VW would lie to me.

I can only explain what I believe and the same goes for others . . . There are some that disagree and believe that the completed scripture is "that which is perfect is come" - and they see that scripture "face to face" - I have seen and dealt with it before and probably will again and again . . . I just see I differently - I see "that which is perfect is come" as being Jesus Christ because that is who I will see "face to face" - not a page on a book. They see knowledge vanishing away . . . in this context - that would be the manifestation of "word of knowledge" - so how can they one minute say that tongues have ceased - (word of) knowledge is vanishing but yet they are receiving this from the Holy Spirit - How? They aren't receiving any (word of) knowledge for it has vanished!!! I don't understand their reasoning . . . but they are still my brothers and sisters in Christ . . . sooooo - love outweighs it all!

I think you are very sweet and lovely.

I was trying to imagine how it would be possible to speak a false tongue or to speak in tongues to boast and glorify oneself. My thinking is that those who do not have the gift of tongues imagine it is either false or something boastful...simply because they don't have it.

I don't think I have ever met anyone with the gift of tongues who would attack another with the gift of tongues on the same basis, that they think it is false or prideful.

Thank you for your understanding and your humility

 

[Galatians2-20]

Wounded, would you be interested in your own digital copy of the collected works of the Early Church Fathers? I have a vast collection of books, both in print and digital, if you are interested.

The Early Church fathers were leaders of the established church in the years following the death of the Apostle John. While not cannon, their writings are considered by many to legitimate & beneficial. They give us great insight, both historically and theologically, as to how the early Church progressed in the centuries between the death of the apostles & the establishment of the Catholic church by emperor Constantine.

 

[WoundedWarrior]

Pffft! This was never about comforting those who speak in tongues. They get their comfort from God. All believers understand that. This was about you attacking those who don't speak in tongues. Get real!

And your new wine-skin is the same make and model as the world's wine-skin. Your wine is vinegar.

(This teddy bear has teeth.)

I'm gonna challenge you on this one, atwhatcost -- I truly do not see how you understand Convallaria's post to be anything but sincere.

 

[notuptome]

I'm gonna challenge you on this one, atwhatcost -- I truly do not see how you understand Convallaria's post to be anything but sincere.

Her exegesis of 2 Tim 1:6 is no where near what is contained in the context of the verse. The gift being stirred in Timothy is his gift to proclaim the word of God. Paul sees in Timothy the gift of preaching and teaching not tongues. Just wishful thinking on the part of a charismatic again.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[WoundedWarrior]

I was trying to imagine how it would be possible to speak a false tongue or to speak in tongues to boast and glorify oneself. My thinking is that those who do not have the gift of tongues imagine it is either false or something boastful...simply because they don't have it.

Hang in there sister -- I know you have a sensitive heart.

Here's the best way I can find to explain this:

I was a part of a local church group for a period of near 20 years (yes, even recalling from childhood).
Not once, did I ever witness anyone speaking in tongues.

In fact, the ONLY time I have ever seen anything that could be referred to as speaking in tongues was when I went on a two-week trip to the island of Hispaniola. I can't remember if I was in Haiti or the Dominican Republic -- but I travelled there with my youth group. We spent time working there and also teaching. I recall meeting at a local church, this local church had a guest speaker (preacher) who was a Baptist (Southern, I think) missionary -- pretty charismatic, if I recall. Anyway, at least two or three of the "Blancos" (white people) who were with that Baptist Mission group began to supposedly "speak in tongues" -- to me (and nearly everyone who was with my group) it sounded like utter nonsense -- almost like a chant -- and none of us saw any purpose or benefit. We simply "wrote it off" or ignored it -- not as a condemnation, but more or less the same as you would if a parent was disciplining their child in public; something that did not go unnoticed, but was none of our business.

I am not one to judge these Baptist Mission people who were supposedly speaking in tongues.
I also did (do) not see how the Church was edified by those actions.

Does this help, a bit, with understanding why one might come to the conclusion that some "tongue-speaking" today might not be from God?