To Covet or To Lust

[Red33]

I see many mixing the all or nothing to salvation, as either you are perfect as Jesus, or you are a wretched sinner, plus those who believe imputation where Jesus took our place and wrath fail to see that this false teaching makes obedience and holiness let alone stopping any sin an option also.

Many will not come out and say you can fornicate and still be saved, yet this is what you are actually saying, Scott is talikng about wilfill sins of the flesh, such as gee I am lonely I think I will go out and find a woman tonight, or gee I am bored and lonely, I think I will go to the bar and slam some brewskies with my friends, or gee my neighbor is very mean to me, I think I will go vandalize his car, and steal his news paper, etc..

This is wilful, premeditated sin as I see it, thought out, and followed through with, intent to be disobedient to God, but mistakes, faults, slip ups etc,, are a part of our long praticed nature, and personalities and are not sins to death, but can be if they lead to taking us away from God, and living in the flesh.

Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

David's sin with Bathsheba, a woman whom he lusted after (2Sam 11:2-5), had sex with and got pregnant and after finding she was pregnant schemed the killing of her husband Uriah... was it willful, premeditated, thought out and disobedient to God when he had Uriah sent out to the front line of battle and knew that kings were not to multiply wives (Duet 17:14-17), especially those who were already married. David committed adultery, got the woman pregnant and had her husband killed and having been guilty of all that, what did God do with David's sin according to (2Sam 12:13)? He put his sin away. Then David took Bathsheba as his wife and after losing their first son, they had Solomon who sat upon the throne of David. I wonder what would happen to anyone who tries to do something like that in the days and times we live in? He would never be forgiven by the average believer and he would be judged as someone who does not know God, because if he did he would never have done such a thing. Did David know the living God and was his heart after God or not? You decide!

You do realize that mercy and goodness followed David all the days of his life (Ps 23:6) and we as believers also have the sure mercies of David (Acts 13:33,34). Don't blame me for what God has said in His word and don't try and take away from it or add to it either, just believe it, as it is written.

 

[Skinski7]

David's sin with Bathsheba, a woman whom he lusted after (2Sam 11:2-5), had sex with and got pregnant and after finding she was pregnant schemed the killing of her husband Uriah... was it willful, premeditated, thought out and disobedient to God when he had Uriah sent out to the front line of battle and knew that kings were not to multiply wives (Duet 17:14-17), especially those who were already married. David committed adultery, got the woman pregnant and had her husband killed and having been guilty of all that, what did God do with David's sin according to (2Sam 12:13)? He put his sin away. Then David took Bathsheba as his wife and after losing their first son, they had Solomon who sat upon the throne of David. I wonder what would happen to anyone who tries to do something like that in the days and times we live in? He would never be forgiven by the average believer and he would be judged as someone who does not know God, because if he did he would never have done such a thing. Did David know the living God and was his heart after God or not? You decide!

You do realize that mercy and goodness followed David all the days of his life (Ps 23:6) and we as believers also have the sure mercies of David (Acts 13:33,34). Don't blame me for what God has said in His word and don't try and take away from it or add to it either, just believe it, as it is written.

David HAD TO REPENT of his sin. David WAS NOT right with God when he was unrepentant in his sin.

You teach that David was JUSTIFIED before God IN HIS SIN. That is your error.

Go back to your initial post in this thread which is presented within the paradigm that "people who are saved can still be in bondage to LUST and COVETOUSNESS."

I responded with some very simple and straight forward scriptures about how Christian's HAVE ESCAPED the corruption that is in the world through lust, that Christian's HAVE CRUCIFIED their fleshly lusts, that Jesus sets sinners FREE INDEED where they are not SERVANTS OF SIN anymore.

You responded in OPPOSITION to those plain scriptures (which I did not even need to elaborate on because they are so clear in what they say) and presented 2Tim 2:19-22 as if it somehow CANCELS OUT the scriptures I posted. I pointed out that 2Tim:19-22 is not teaching that Christians are DOUBLE-MINDED but is simply a calling for people to FLEE SIN and FOLLOW RIGHTEOUSNESS.

You then responded with 1Cor 3 where you implied that "wood, hay and stubble" is ongoing willful sin in an attempt to teach that YOU CAN SIN and still enter the kingdom.

I replied clearly showing that the context of "wood, hay and stubble" was in regards to "unfruitful church building" AND NOT sins of the flesh like "lust and covetousness."

You simply BLEW THE SCRIPTURES RIGHT OFF (because you don't believe them) and called me "FAR OUT THERE."

Now you are appealing to David committing Adultery and Murder as if that is proof that YOU CAN SIN and not surely die.

Why do you argue in favour of sin EVERY SINGLE TIME. You are constantly defending being able to sin yet you cloud it in "you shouldn't do it" rhetoric. You jump from passage to passage trying to defend sin. When I clearly expose how you twist one passage you just ignore it and jump to the next.

All you do is blow smoke and defend sin.

How do you get around this scripture????

1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

You constantly allude to your belief that there are people "of God" who do evil.

When David was committing adultery and murder HE WAS NOT OF GOD. He had REJECTED God and that is why Nathan came to him and said "YOU ARE THAT MAN." David had to REPENT and FORSAKE HIS REBELLION otherwise he would have LOST HIS SOUL. The Bible says that the 'unrighteous SHALL NOT inherit the kingdom.' You teach that THEY CAN.

Jesus did not come to set people free from sin and leave them in bondage to sin. That is treating the blood of Jesus like the blood of animals. It is practically BLASPHEMY. God IS NOT WEAK. God CAN and DOES deliver people from the BONDAGE OF SIN.

When Jesus said "Go and Sin No More!" He was not telling someone to do something that was impossible. The sins of the flesh, the sins of yielding selfishly to the passions and desires of the flesh unlawfully MUST CEASE in repentance or they WILL NEVER CEASE. You CANNOT serve two masters.

God does not make you cease. He influences you, He draws you, He empowers you, but He does not FORCE you. Sin is a CHOICE and sinners CHOOSE TO SIN because THEY LOVE SIN.

 

[Red33]

David HAD TO REPENT of his sin. David WAS NOT right with God when he was unrepentant in his sin.

You teach that David was JUSTIFIED before God IN HIS SIN. That is your error.

Go back to your initial post in this thread which is presented within the paradigm that "people who are saved can still be in bondage to LUST and COVETOUSNESS."

I responded with some very simple and straight forward scriptures about how Christian's HAVE ESCAPED the corruption that is in the world through lust, that Christian's HAVE CRUCIFIED their fleshly lusts, that Jesus sets sinners FREE INDEED where they are not SERVANTS OF SIN anymore.

You responded in OPPOSITION to those plain scriptures (which I did not even need to elaborate on because they are so clear in what they say) and presented 2Tim 2:19-22 as if it somehow CANCELS OUT the scriptures I posted. I pointed out that 2Tim:19-22 is not teaching that Christians are DOUBLE-MINDED but is simply a calling for people to FLEE SIN and FOLLOW RIGHTEOUSNESS.

You then responded with 1Cor 3 where you implied that "wood, hay and stubble" is ongoing willful sin in an attempt to teach that YOU CAN SIN and still enter the kingdom.

I replied clearly showing that the context of "wood, hay and stubble" was in regards to "unfruitful church building" AND NOT sins of the flesh like "lust and covetousness."

You simply BLEW THE SCRIPTURES RIGHT OFF (because you don't believe them) and called me "FAR OUT THERE."

Now you are appealing to David committing Adultery and Murder as if that is proof that YOU CAN SIN and not surely die.

Why do you argue in favour of sin EVERY SINGLE TIME. You are constantly defending being able to sin yet you cloud it in "you shouldn't do it" rhetoric. You jump from passage to passage trying to defend sin. When I clearly expose how you twist one passage you just ignore it and jump to the next.

All you do is blow smoke and defend sin.

How do you get around this scripture????

1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

You constantly allude to your belief that there are people "of God" who do evil.

When David was committing adultery and murder HE WAS NOT OF GOD. He had REJECTED God and that is why Nathan came to him and said "YOU ARE THAT MAN." David had to REPENT and FORSAKE HIS REBELLION otherwise he would have LOST HIS SOUL. The Bible says that the 'unrighteous SHALL NOT inherit the kingdom.' You teach that THEY CAN.

Jesus did not come to set people free from sin and leave them in bondage to sin. That is treating the blood of Jesus like the blood of animals. It is practically BLASPHEMY. God IS NOT WEAK. God CAN and DOES deliver people from the BONDAGE OF SIN.

When Jesus said "Go and Sin No More!" He was not telling someone to do something that was impossible. The sins of the flesh, the sins of yielding selfishly to the passions and desires of the flesh unlawfully MUST CEASE in repentance or they WILL NEVER CEASE. You CANNOT serve two masters.

God does not make you cease. He influences you, He draws you, He empowers you, but He does not FORCE you. Sin is a CHOICE and sinners CHOOSE TO SIN because THEY LOVE SIN.

You are a true example of a misguided man in the doctrine of Christ. However, Happy New Year.

 

[starfield]

What you have said concerns works that are done IN THE BODY of the believer. Notice what the verse says in (1Cor 5:10)...

10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

These scriptures are not just speaking to motive but also to the sort of works done in the body and that would include any work done in the body as a carnal believer, which would fall under the setting of 'bad works' that are burned up as wood, hay and stubble.You have to be able to see that and when these are burned up and suffer loss (by not being rewarded to the believer), they themselves shall be saved as by fire.

[FONT=&quot]So what are these 'bad works' you talk about? Can a carnal believer be differentiated from an unbeliever? [/FONT]

1Cor 3:15
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. (not just the motive but also the sort, manner, source and quality)

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

The believer did not suffer loss because of 'good works' done in his body, for those will be tried by the fire and will be considered precious and will be rewarded.

These works that come from the carnal man do not please God and they are works produced by the flesh and not the Spirit and they are bad works and not good works that will suffer the loss of all rewards. We either produce 'bad works' done in our body through the energy of the flesh (wood, hay and stubble) or we do 'good works' done in our body through the activity of the Spirit (gold, silver and precious stones). We are to provoke one another unto love and good works (Heb 10:24, Mt 5:16, Acts 9:36, Eph 2:10, 1Tim 2:10, 2Tim 3:17, Titus 2:7, 1Pt 2:12).

So you're saying believers who walk after the flesh will just lose rewards? [FONT=&quot]
Why would Paul write "For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live" (Rom 8:13) and then say that in 1 Cor 3:15 believers who live fleshly will just suffer loss of rewards? This is obvious contradiction.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Clearly the consequence of walking after the flesh is eternal death.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Those that are truly born again and are walking after the Spirit will not gratify the lust of the flesh.

Anyone, any believer, who walks after the flesh will not inherit the kingdom of God:
Gal 5:19-21
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.[/FONT]

One who is walking after the flesh is not under the guidance of the Spirit of God as when the Holy Spirit is guiding you, you will produce fruit of the Spirit, and He will empower you live righteously. 1 Cor 3:16-17 says that if anyone destroys the temple of God, God will destroy them. The Holy Spirit indwells in every believer so for a believer to live in rebellion against God is defiling this temple and grieving the Spirit. God will chasten them but if they refuse to heed to this chastening, He can withdraw His hands and they may feel spiritually lethargic, their prayers may not be answered, they won't receive blessings, and if they die in that state they will end up in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone. It is a dangerous state and that person needs to repent, go back to the cross and seek the mercy of God before it is too late. God is no respecter of persons; all workers of unrighteousness will have their part in the Lake of Fire.

Therefore wood, hay, and stubble do not signify works of the flesh but rather works that do not yield fruits (fruitless service). Works done after salvation will be judged, not the spiritual state of souls. Some will appear before Christ having no works to show to Him and so they not receive rewards yet they will be saved eternally as they lived godly lives on earth. For instance, if in a person's work of soul-winning their mode of preaching does not yield converts, or the souls eventually backslide, such works will not be rewarded. This is can also be applied in pastoral ministry. Paul planted the word of God in the hearts of souls, Apollos watered such as nurturing and encouraging the new converts, then God gave the increase; similarly, when one faithfully commits their work into God's hands, He will bring the increase and the builder will not suffer loss.[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]Loss of rewards and burning up of works has nothing to do with living in carnality or walking after the flesh occasionally. The carnal worldly Christian won’t even be at the Bema Seat of Christ. They will be at the Great White Throne Judgment.

It is unfortunate that some have utterly twisted this chapter to propagate a gospel of compromise. It is an insult to the cross of Christ to say that this chapter proves that one can profess to be saved, live in rebellion, and still get to Heaven but simply lose eternal rewards.

Titus 1:16
16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

These are those who are absent of any good works because they are reprobate (devoid of and are disapproved) and do not have the good work of God's righteousness imputed unto them by faith, for they never believed in the cross and that God raised Christ from the dead. This is why they are abominable, disobedient and reprobate unto EVERY good work. These will be judged according to their works at the white throne judgment in (Rev 20:11-15) (not the judgment of the believers).

Correct! They never repented of their sins and believed in the Lord Jesus, like the scribes and Pharisees, but exhibit mere lip service (Matt 15:8) thus they will be at the Great White Throne Judgment for condemnation.

Salvation is more than having a mental knowledge of God for even the demons believe that there is a God. What differentiates the faith of the regenerated from that of demons is that the regenerated soul has repented of their sins and are walking in the Spirit as He leads them, and following after righteousness.

 

[Stephen63]

Originally Posted by Stephen63

Do our pulpits deal with this in a way the does not condemn but reveals the truth, convicts the heart and then provides the means of restoration and deliverance from coveting?
I don't believe some of them do either. However, it's not just the guy behind the pulpit who's responsible for this. Every Christian should.

Coveting something or someone can take on many different forms and when these are spoken of, people get defensive and indifferent and don't want to have the cross and the light of God's word make these things become evident by bringing them to the forefront.

Some of the different forms could be:
1. To be the one who's right.
2. To be the one who has the last word.
3. To be the top master (teacher).
4. To be the most respected in the Bible Discussion Forums.
5. To be heard.
6. To be accepted.
7. To be noticed.
8. To glory in their ability.
9. To be a hero.
10. To be important.

And the list goes on and on...... all of this is covetousness, and all covetousness is idolatry. It can also involve the sin of pride, which with it brings destruction. Destruction of a ministry(forum), destruction of reputation, and destruction of honor.

As Christians, we are to go to them in love trying to get them to see the light. If they flatly refuse, we are dust off our feet as a testimony against them. Perhaps this is why many people won't even bother with the Bible Discussion Forum. Maybe they have already dusted off their feet.

The man behind the pulpit is the one that God has raised up and it is his duty as a preacher and teacher to deal with this issue of coveting in his the local assembly God has given him to oversee.

Those (10) points you mention above, why don't explain them a little further and if need be, you can use me as an example if I fit that description. Do you really think that many do not post or participate in the Bible Discussion Forums because they have dusted off their feet? You seem to have no problem posting in these forums, perhaps others do not post because they are afraid or they are weary in their own flesh or they have the same problem you have described and have shut down or just decided to quit posting and go on to something more social.

People who covet can be very defensive of their rights to be heard and also be very condemning of those that may been taught by a pastor-teacher and have lots of doctrine in their soul. The entrance of God's word gives light and when we walk in the light we receive more light and specific categorical doctrine to build up our soul with light and life through and in Christ. We are to walk as children of light because we are children of the day and not of the night. God gives us light to stir us up out of our darkness and sluggishness and to open our eyes that have been blinded. This is not something we should react to and be critical but we should humble ourselves and receive the light that is given. Many argue against the light and all that does is reveal a heart of contention and unbelief. Do you have that kind of heart or is your heart after the light and the things of God?

These points speak for themselves. It was not my intention to point out individuals, but for those to discover for themselves whether the shoe fits or not.
People who covet are very defensive of being heard. I agree. One only needs to stay in this forum a little while to learn that.
As far as the dusted feet are concerned, I personally heard in chat from many about the Bible Discussion forum. Personally, I believe this forum to be a good idea. But it has gained a reputation due to the disputes & rudeness of some of it's participants. I also believe that covetousness & pride are the principle sins involved.
You're right about people not wanting their sin brought to the forefront. They would rather fight than switch.

 

[psychomom]

The fallacy in your thinking in regards to what I write is thinking that when I say "we must yield to God" that I am saying "we don't need Jesus cos we can do these things without Him."

Why did Jesus come?

He came to save people from their sins.

Scott...it's very difficult to read every word you type.

Not only are your posts so very lengthy, the way you handle the Word of God can be very, er, off-putting?
I know you think it's because people (like me) can't stand to hear the 'truth', and that's your prerogative. I s'pose you and I both are quite intransigent on this issue, as we both believe ourselves to be correct.
And though we agree about a lot, there are one or two things that are essential to the Faith that I am as adamant about as you.

But if it isn't too much to ask...I do ask that you explain exactly how what I bolded above is accomplished?
What steps are taken, and by whom, and in which order?

You know, Dragnet it for me?
It's okay to just post a reference...I have a Bible right here and can look up any verse reference I don't just know.

Thanks,
ellie

 

[Stephen63]

Dragnet? "Just the facts, ma'am, just the facts." Yer gonna tell yer age if yer not careful.

 

[Skinski7]

Scott...it's very difficult to read every word you type.

Not only are your posts so very lengthy, the way you handle the Word of God can be very, er, off-putting?
I know you think it's because people (like me) can't stand to hear the 'truth', and that's your prerogative. I s'pose you and I both are quite intransigent on this issue, as we both believe ourselves to be correct.
And though we agree about a lot, there are one or two things that are essential to the Faith that I am as adamant about as you.

But if it isn't too much to ask...I do ask that you explain exactly how what I bolded above is accomplished?
What steps are taken, and by whom, and in which order?

You know, Dragnet it for me?
It's okay to just post a reference...I have a Bible right here and can look up any verse reference I don't just know.

Thanks,
ellie

"He came to save people from their sins."

The Bible says this...

Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

How is this salvation is wrought?

Firstly there is the problem that all people HAVE sinned. They have willingly turned from God and yielded to the lusts of their flesh and thus wrought on themselves condemnation.

It is only through the blood of Jesus Christ that these sins can be remitted. Without the shedding of blood there can be no remission. The blood purifies the offering.

Heb 9:21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

The blood of Jesus Christ purges our conscience of our criminal record. The blood washes away our guilt so that we can serve the living God. It is through the blood that we are sanctified and set apart unto holiness (serving God).

Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
Heb 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

This purging is only for the "former sins" because the repentant sinner has FORSAKEN their rebellion. It is not a purging of future rebellion.

Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

The blood of the covenant sanctifies us once and for all and thus to "continue" to sin against grace is to treat the blood with contempt. No sacrifice remains for those who willingly sin against grace. This is because Jesus Christ cannot be sacrificed over and over again, His blood is not a get out of jail free card which someone can use with contempt, hence "willful sin" (connected to knowledge) in verse 26.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

It is through the blood that reconciliation to God is made possible.

Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
Col 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
Col 1:22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

The Bible also connects the baptism of repentance to the remission of sins.

Mar 1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

John preached the Baptism of Repentance to prepare the way for the Messiah because one cannot access the work of Messiah without repentance. You can see in Acts certain men who had undergone the Baptism of Repentance but had not yet received the Holy Ghost. Thus the Baptism of Repentance does not save someone, it simply prepares an individual for salvation.

Act 19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
Act 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
Act 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Act 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Act 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Act 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

Jesus also taught that repentance and remission of sin be preached together.

Luk_24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

In many other posts I have clearly shown that repentance is the "mind change" which necessitates that "deeds change" ie. The Prodigal Son (Luke 15), Nineveh (Jon 3:5-10, Mat 12:41), parable of the two sons sons ( Mat 21:28-32). This is why in Acts they preached repentance PROVEN by deeds (Act 26:20).

Hence we have "repentance" necessitating "conversion" which puts an individual in the state needed for their "sins to be blotted out" at the times of refreshing.

Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

The time of refreshing is when the blood if applied to the living sacrifice (the repentant sinner) and their PAST SINS are forgiven. Blotting out of sin, purging of sin, being cleansed of all sin, sins being remitted, is all the same thing.

All the different scriptures on the subject harmonise perfectly on this. Repentance is for remission because it is through repentance that the soul is placed in a savable state. In other words, God will not purge a rebel of their sin. The rebellion must cease first.

Look carefully at this scripture for it depicts the same pattern...

1Jn 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
1Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

The "cleansing of all sin" is conditioned on WALKING in the light. A walk is what someone does, it is their deeds, the choices they make, how they conduct themselves.

The method by which one "comes to the place" of "actually walking in the light" is through repentance and faith. John is teaching this in 1Jn 1:8-10. A sinner has to come to God in repentance confessing their sin just like the Prodigal Son in Luke 15. The Prodigal Son could not have said "I have no sin" otherwise the truth would not have been in him. The Prodigal Son confessed his sin and the Father was faithful in forgiving him his sin.

I have made many other posts about how repentance is wrought in the mind of an individual so I won't repeat myself here. I will say though that 2Cor 7:10-11 are very powerful scriptures which clearly lay out how it is through "godly sorrow" that repentance is wrought and particularly in verse 11 where the fruit of godly sorrow is laid out. Repentance is simply where the wild self-willed horse is broken into submission. The sinner is brought out of rebellion into a submissive state before God. It is very simple.

If we say we have NEVER sinned we make Him a liar and His word (the truth) is not in us.

See how 1Joh 5-10 perfectly harmonises with all the other scriptures? 1Joh 1:8 is not teaching "inbred sin" or that "the sin never stops." If it was teaching that then it would be in complete contradiction which so much of the Bible (go and sin no more (Jn 8:11), depart from iniquity (2Tim 2:19), children of God do not sin (1Joh 3:9), ceased from sin (1Pet 4:1).

Very clearly the Bible teaches that the blood is only applied to a sinner who has forsaken their sin. Hence it perfectly harmonises with the scriptures which teach that forgiveness is conditional on the forsaking of sin (Isa 55:7, Pro 28:13, Jer 26:13 etc.).

It is through repentance and faith that one enters BOLDLY into the Holy Place in a NEW AND LIVING WAY. The "new and living way" is "walking in the light as He is in the light." The ONE SACRIFICE perfects us forever (because it washes away our past rebellion and purifies our inner being).

Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Heb 10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
Heb 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised

Read the above passage several times and really think about it. How can someone who has been washed from an evil conscience and has been purified be walking in rebellion to God? It is impossible.

The blood of Christ is not a cover for the ongoing rebellion of a sinner.

In the context of being "saved from our sins" look at this passage...

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Jesus came to redeem us from all iniquity. Through his blood he PURCHASED US or RANSOMED US. Sin has a hold over sinners because they have violated the law and death was their due. Jesus ransomed sinners from this state and not only that He PURIFIES THEM.

Purity is heart is wrought through obedience to the truth by the Spirit (1Pet 1:21). Thus when a saint is walking in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ (Rom 8:2) their mind is being constantly renewed as they continually yield to the leading of God. They are being reprogrammed if you will. Thus over time they come more and more into the image of Jesus Christ. This is the perfecting of the saints which is spoken of in Eph 4:12. It is not to be confused with "sinning less" or "rebelling less."

The modern Gospel has removed PURITY OF HEART and twisted sanctification into being state where you "rebel less and less" over time. There is no heart purity in that and that is why they teach that the literal righteousness of Jesus is TRANSFERRED to our account. They have to teach something like that to cover the shortcomings and continual defilement of the Christian.

Sanctification in the Bible is being set apart for God. It is a state of obeying God from the heart and growing in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ. There is an ongoing purification for sure, as God reveals things that need to be changed to the saint they YIELD and make the change. The HEART IS OBEDIENT. The HEART IS PURE. The saint has ESCAPED the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Prove all things and hold fast to that which is true.

 

[Stephen63]

Scott...it's very difficult to read every word you type.

Not only are your posts so very lengthy, the way you handle the Word of God can be very, er, off-putting?
I know you think it's because people (like me) can't stand to hear the 'truth', and that's your prerogative. I s'pose you and I both are quite intransigent on this issue, as we both believe ourselves to be correct.
And though we agree about a lot, there are one or two things that are essential to the Faith that I am as adamant about as you.

But if it isn't too much to ask...I do ask that you explain exactly how what I bolded above is accomplished?
What steps are taken, and by whom, and in which order?

You know, Dragnet it for me?
It's okay to just post a reference...I have a Bible right here and can look up any verse reference I don't just know.

Thanks,
ellie

Yeah........ What she said.

 

[GOD_IS_LOVE]

What an interesting post. i was talking to my Mom yesterday about the same thing. Her Dad was an alcoholic and he mentally and physically abused her
as a child. She is almost bed fast due to scoliosis i try to talk to her to not go by emotions, but faith. She just cries more.i tell her man is not our strong arm,
but the Lord. My step dad who raised us passed away and was always a strong person, since he passed, she went to bed. Nevertheless,it seems what
she went through has manifest in her body and emotions, what do you do?

Pray for the Lord to heal her emotions. They shouldn't be denied, but dealt with, in truth and grace.