Today is the Anniversary if Christian Bonhoeffer's birthday.

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MitchW

New member
Jan 18, 2023
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#1
Christian Bonhoeffer saved thousands of German Jews from the Holocaust during the 1930's. He paid with his life being executed on the last day of WW II.
 

Seeker47

Well-known member
Aug 7, 2018
1,129
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#2
I'm not so sure the protestant church likes to remember Bonhoeffer. It makes them uncomfortable.

Thanks for bringing this forward.
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
8,318
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#3
I'm not so sure the protestant church likes to remember Bonhoeffer. It makes them uncomfortable.

Thanks for bringing this forward.
I don't have a problem with him. What's there to have a problem about?
 

Seeker47

Well-known member
Aug 7, 2018
1,129
963
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#4
A few facts from the American Holocaust Museum:

There were 44,000 concentration camps operated by the Nazi political régime between 1933 and 1945
There were more than 18,000,000 deaths in those camps including:
@ 6,000,000 Jews
@ 5,700,000 Soviet Civilians
@ 3,000,000 Soviet POW's
@ 2,000,000 non-Jewish Polish citizens
@ 500,000 Serbs
@ 300,000 "Gypsies"
@ 270,000 disables German Citizens
@ 10,000 Male homosexuals

And only Bonhoeffer knew? He pleaded in vain for the church to speak out. History records the answer.
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
8,318
3,619
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#5
A few facts from the American Holocaust Museum:

There were 44,000 concentration camps operated by the Nazi political régime between 1933 and 1945
There were more than 18,000,000 deaths in those camps including:
@ 6,000,000 Jews
@ 5,700,000 Soviet Civilians
@ 3,000,000 Soviet POW's
@ 2,000,000 non-Jewish Polish citizens
@ 500,000 Serbs
@ 300,000 "Gypsies"
@ 270,000 disables German Citizens
@ 10,000 Male homosexuals

And only Bonhoeffer knew? He pleaded in vain for the church to speak out. History records the answer.
Why are you being so coy? Can't you just say what you mean?
 

arthurfleminger

Well-known member
Aug 18, 2021
1,405
780
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#7
Bonhoeffer was a very rare exception. In fact, Christianity collapsed in Nazi Germany as the Germans worshipped and accepted Hitler as their god. All Christian churches in Nazi Germany turned out to be spineless when it came to loving and protecting the Jews, Poles, Russians, Gypsies, Gays......etc/etc....

Hitler appointed his own bishops to run his acceptable German Christian church, reminiscent of Henry VIII and the church of England. Hitler was secretely planning to eliminate all Christianity in Europe/Russia after Germany won the war.

True Christians like Bonhoeffer were very rare indeed.
 

ButterflyJones

Active member
Feb 5, 2023
698
230
43
#10
I did not intend my message to be indirect.
I'm new and this is the first thread I've read here.

Sounds to me like you meant to be very direct in implying what you did about Protestants.

Why would we have an issue with Mr.Bonhoeffer? Please be specific.

I'd think if anything the Catholic church would have issues with his undertaking.

That was a time when the pope knew of the Holocaust and did not excommunicate Adolf Hitler or Catholic Nazis. And in fact appeared to have no issue with the mass slaughter of the Jews.
 

Seeker47

Well-known member
Aug 7, 2018
1,129
963
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#11
I have no issue with Mr. Bonhoeffer at all. He was the one voice clearly heard in opposition to the Nazi regime. He spoke publicly, and repeatedly in opposition to Hitler's policies. He actually made trips to the US to address the churches response to what was happening in Europe. For the most part his pleas fell on deaf ears in the US as well as in his home nation.
 

ButterflyJones

Active member
Feb 5, 2023
698
230
43
#12
I have no issue with Mr. Bonhoeffer at all. He was the one voice clearly heard in opposition to the Nazi regime. He spoke publicly, and repeatedly in opposition to Hitler's policies. He actually made trips to the US to address the churches response to what was happening in Europe. For the most part his pleas fell on deaf ears in the US as well as in his home nation.
In the U.S the deaf ears would likely be because the churches could do nothing to stop Hitler.

While the government that could have had already signed a non aggression treaty with Hitler. This insured we would do nothing to stop him.
 

ThereRoseaLamb

Well-known member
Jan 17, 2023
4,787
2,068
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#13
I have no issue with Mr. Bonhoeffer at all. He was the one voice clearly heard in opposition to the Nazi regime. He spoke publicly, and repeatedly in opposition to Hitler's policies. He actually made trips to the US to address the churches response to what was happening in Europe. For the most part his pleas fell on deaf ears in the US as well as in his home nation.
There is a reason it fell on deaf ears. But to this day people don't want to hear the truth.
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
8,318
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#14
There was a popular doctrine in Christianity in the US and Canada at the time that may have been partially responsible for inaction, if there was any. It was part of the overall British Israelism teaching; and more specifically, the serpent seed doctrine. A lot of branches of British Israelism taught that the US and Great Britain were the 10 lost tribes of Israel. But there was another branch that taught the Germans were the true Jews and the Jewish people were the serpent's seed; that is, the offspring of Eve and the serpent in the garden.

If we try to understand Christianity back then through the lens of what it is today we come away with a distorted view. There were a lot of bizarre teachings that were popular back then just like there are today; however, they were different in nature.

The US had no interest in getting involved in another war in Europe. No one realized how dangerous Hitler was until it was nearly too late. They should have though, he spelled it all out beforehand in his book Mein Kampf.
 

ThereRoseaLamb

Well-known member
Jan 17, 2023
4,787
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#15
There was a popular doctrine in Christianity in the US and Canada at the time that may have been partially responsible for inaction, if there was any. It was part of the overall British Israelism teaching; and more specifically, the serpent seed doctrine. A lot of branches of British Israelism taught that the US and Great Britain were the 10 lost tribes of Israel. But there was another branch that taught the Germans were the true Jews and the Jewish people were the serpent's seed; that is, the offspring of Eve and the serpent in the garden.

If we try to understand Christianity back then through the lens of what it is today we come away with a distorted view. There were a lot of bizarre teachings that were popular back then just like there are today; however, they were different in nature.

The US had no interest in getting involved in another war in Europe. No one realized how dangerous Hitler was until it was nearly too late. They should have though, he spelled it all out beforehand in his book Mein Kampf.

Interesting...I have never heard of the serpent seed doctrine. I need to look into that deeper. Of course Martin Luther was no fan of the Jews. Some of the Germans used his writings as an excuse for what they did in the Holocaust.
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
8,318
3,619
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#16
Interesting...I have never heard of the serpent seed doctrine. I need to look into that deeper. Of course Martin Luther was no fan of the Jews. Some of the Germans used his writings as an excuse for what they did in the Holocaust.
From the article at Wikipedia:

"In the 1890s, C. A. L. Totten (1851–1908), a former professor of military science at Yale University, began to promote British Israelism. Totten began to promote the belief that Anglo-Saxons were destined by God to rule the world. Also during the 1890s, British Israelism began to develop into a formal organization which took on racial overtones. In 1886, the growing group formed the Anglo-Israel Association and in 1919, this group renamed itself the British-Israel-World Federation. The primary aim of this group was the promotion of archeological expeditions which it wished to undertake in order to discover pieces of evidence which would validate its beliefs. The group remained small, but it gained a broader base of international appeal when it began to accept all people of Germanic descent as part of the righteous seed-line of the lost tribes of Israel. By the 1930s, the movement had grown to include over 50 branches in the United States which were all under the leadership of William J. Cameron, but the British Israel movement largely faded from view both during and after World War II."​
 

ThereRoseaLamb

Well-known member
Jan 17, 2023
4,787
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#17
From the article at Wikipedia:

"In the 1890s, C. A. L. Totten (1851–1908), a former professor of military science at Yale University, began to promote British Israelism. Totten began to promote the belief that Anglo-Saxons were destined by God to rule the world. Also during the 1890s, British Israelism began to develop into a formal organization which took on racial overtones. In 1886, the growing group formed the Anglo-Israel Association and in 1919, this group renamed itself the British-Israel-World Federation. The primary aim of this group was the promotion of archeological expeditions which it wished to undertake in order to discover pieces of evidence which would validate its beliefs. The group remained small, but it gained a broader base of international appeal when it began to accept all people of Germanic descent as part of the righteous seed-line of the lost tribes of Israel. By the 1930s, the movement had grown to include over 50 branches in the United States which were all under the leadership of William J. Cameron, but the British Israel movement largely faded from view both during and after World War II."​


Amazing, I read a lot on history and had never heard of this. Thanks for sharing this information, very interesting.
 

Dude653

Senior Member
Mar 19, 2011
12,689
1,103
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#18
I'm new and this is the first thread I've read here.

Sounds to me like you meant to be very direct in implying what you did about Protestants.

Why would we have an issue with Mr.Bonhoeffer? Please be specific.

I'd think if anything the Catholic church would have issues with his undertaking.

That was a time when the pope knew of the Holocaust and did not excommunicate Adolf Hitler or Catholic Nazis. And in fact appeared to have no issue with the mass slaughter of the Jews.
The Catholic Church literally used to teach that Jews were killing Christians and using their blood to cast magic spells
 

ThereRoseaLamb

Well-known member
Jan 17, 2023
4,787
2,068
113
#19
The Catholic Church literally used to teach that Jews were killing Christians and using their blood to cast magic spells

Well, some of the church fathers didn't have much good to say about the Jews. Luther wrote a sermon on "The Jews and their Lies".
 

Dude653

Senior Member
Mar 19, 2011
12,689
1,103
113
#20
Well, some of the church fathers didn't have much good to say about the Jews. Luther wrote a sermon on "The Jews and their Lies".
So one could argue that the Holocaust was a culmination of about 2,000 years of Catholic propaganda against the jews.
Hitler played on this sentiment to garner support for murdering the Jews