Tongues Again???

[presidente]

Or could it it be that some are so busy trying to justify using their spiritual toys, that they need to put away their toys, in order to grow up spiritually?

Despise not prophesyings. The cessationists are the ones performing the semantic gymnastics to justify the idea that the Bible does not apply to them.

1 Corinthians 13:11 (NKJV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

Paul will grow up either when or after Jesus comes back. You are not more mature in your understanding of the word of God than Paul was.

The fact that Christians disagree on issues like this disproves your interpretation. The cessationists don't all take the same approach. I've venture to guess that most cessationists on here do not think that the Corinthians were speaking in pagan tongues, or that Paul wanted pagan tongues interpreted to edify the body.

 

[presidente]

Where do Teachings come from? It comes from the words of God or the Bible. To prophesy is to interpret the words of God, while I believe “to prophesy” has twofold meaning of predicting and interpreting, foretell and forth tell but the context in 1 Corinthians fits for the “interpretation” of the words of God rather than “predicting” future events as this concern the edification of the church.

I don't get where you come up with the categories of 'interpretation' and 'predicting'. I get predicting, but not 'interpretation.' I suppose I could dig through the Bible and find some case where God interpreted some Law for the Israelites in the prophets. But genuine prophesying is quoting whatever message God wants to say at that moment. God speaks, and the human being says the words.

Teaching usually involves someone interpreting what God already said in the past.

Where do you get that in I Corinthians, prophesying has to do with 'interpreting.' I can see clearly that it has to do with revelation, that comes on the spot, because Paul writes, "If a revelation cometh to one sitting by, let the first hold his peace."

So we see that prophesying in I Corinthians:
1. is a revelation
2. can come on the spot.

As far as for- and forth- goes, we should look at usage rather than etymology, or in this case morphology. 'Sinister' does not mean left-handed, even if that is where the word comes from.

Can you show me an example of where the Greek word translated 'prophesy' or a related word is used where it is not referring to a revelatory message, allegedly spoken (or communicated) under the influence of the God, a god, the Spirit, or a spirit?

 

[stonesoffire]

Hi stonesoffire, where is it said that all christians have the gift of speaking in tongues? This is not said from the verses you quote.

Did I say that? They spoke in tongues and prophesied the wondrous works of God. All will speak something when baptized in Holy Spirit. There are several gifts that use the voice.

 

[presidente]

Well if the bible was limited to just three chapters in First Corinthians you would be in good shape.

I'd be in a position where I accepted what the Bible teaches, but you'd be rejecting much of it. Fortunately, my Bible is bigger than that. The fact that we discuss this topic on threads related to this topic doesn't mean I am not interested in the rest of the Bible. I could imagine all you do is sit around and look for opportunities to argue that a certain few passages of scripture don't apply.

 

[fredoheaven]

In most contexts in the New Testament, 'preaching' refers to activity that goes on outside the church, when the Gospel is proclaimed to unbelievers. The KJV uses 'preach' on one occasion to refer to a word from which we get the English 'dialogue' which is elsewhere also translated as 'disputed' or 'taught.' But generally the three Greek words translated 'preach' are generally used to refer to something done toward those who do not believe, and are generally used to refer to an activity that occurs outside of church.

One word translated preach is related to the English word for 'evangelism.' Evangelists are listed as a separate ministry from prophets in Ephesians 4. So are pastors and teachers. Teachers and prophets are different ministries in I Corinthians 12. Prophesying, teaching, and exhortation are different gifts in Romans 12. They are not all the same thing.

Thank you for the response but I need some clearing up things.What Paul’s manner of “reasoning is out of the scripture” so I will let scriptures speaks most of the time. In so doing, I may start with the Biblical “preaching” as used in the Bible. What really the Bible says of ‘preaching’? Is biblical preaching goes on outside the church? That the activity or the word is preach is only related to ‘evangelism’ and none else?

What the Bible says: Biblical preaching does in the church as well. It’s too obvious as we know it all that preaching was done by John the Baptist in the wilderness, Jesus preached the kingdom gospel in the streets, in villages, cities and in every corners. Mark say in chapter 16 “Preach the gospel to every creature” and Paul did preached the gospel. Preaching is mandated by Christ.

Now here are following that Biblical preaching is not only for unbelievers but believers as well.

Acts 20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

Acts 20:8 And there were many lights in the upper chamber, where they were gathered together.

Acts 20:9 And there sat in a window a certain young man named Eutychus, being fallen into a deep sleep: and as Paul was long preaching, he sunk down with sleep, and fell down from the third loft, and was taken up dead.

Well, that’s Paul upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together…Paul preached…and his preaching was long…

Another in the passage in the same chapter of the Book of Acts to continue:

Acts 20:17 And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church.

Acts 20:25 And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more.

Acts 20:27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.

Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Acts 20:32 And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.

Having Paul went to the Ephesus and called the elders (matured believers/ leaders) of the church among whom he had gone preaching the kingdom of God, declaring all the counsel of God. Feeding the church goes pretty well with the preaching of the word which is able to build them up.

The charge of Paul to young Timothy is to “Preach the Word” this include doctrine available to believers. Still in the context, reproving, rebuking and exhorting were meant for believers.

2 Timothy 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

 

[fredoheaven]

I Corinthians does not say that they wanted self-edification more than anything else. You seem to be reading into the text. Some of them may have been extremely enthusiastic about tongues, and they may not have thought along the lines of Paul's argument that each individual who spoke in tongues without interpretation was only edifying himself.

This is emphatic since they all desire spiritual gifts especially the gift of tongues.

1 Corinthians 14:5 I would that ye all spake with tongues
1 Corinthians 14: 12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts,
1 Corinthians 14:18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
1 Corinthians 14: 23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?

 

[fredoheaven]

God is not limited by your theology. If the Holy Spirit wants to give someone a message about the future, he may do so. I quoted Irenaeus a while back about how he wrote of prophesying, foreknowledge, tongues, and raising the dead among the brethren in his day, around 200 AD. I guess no one had told him and the church he was a part of that these gifts had ceased at that time, so they just kept functioning in them.

Umm, you are now quoting some extra biblical scenario ehich might fall into historical interpretation and by which I thought you wouldn't do that. By the way I haven’t read your quote of Irenaeus or is that the same quote in the other thread which simply nothing but speaking of languages nothing about Charismatic experience. See also the link. Plus your “if” makes the difference. Didn’t you know that many died because of the word “if” do you? Is this giving your own Pentecostal opinion or as the manner of Paul was, he reasoned out of the scriptures.

God bless

https://books.google.com.ph/books?id=LBxlAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA402&lpg=PA402&dq="In+like+manner+we+do+also+hear+many+brethren+in+the+church,+who+possess+prophetic+gifts,+and+who+through+the+Spirit+speak+all+kinds+of+language

 

[fredoheaven]

You assume that prophesying means, or used to mean 'foretelling.' While looking at meanings of morphemes is helpful in understanding words. lexicographers (who write dictionaries) are more concerned with usage. The questions are how are words used and what do they mean to the users of those words?

Can you show me an example of Greek literature where a 'prophecy' referred to something other than a message (or other kind of communication) alledgedly from God or a god, the Spirit or spirits. Christian prophesying occurs when the Spirit moves a believer to say (or otherwise communicate) something.

Prophesying can be foretelling, and many prophecies were. The soldiers who beat Jesus may have spoken Greek. They said 'Prophesy to us, Christ, who is the one having struck You". They did not tell Him to predict who would hit them. In the Old Testament, prophesying is whatever God wants to say. It can be about the future, the present, or the past. Some prophecies are about the future. It doesn't have to be about the future to be prophesying. That is not the identifying characteristic of true prophesying. Genuine prophesying is communicating a message that is given by God, as carried along by the Holy Spirit.

I see your point that prophesying communicates a message from the LORD. The Prophets of old have to proclaimed ’Thus saith the LORD” or that comes from the mouth of the LORD but also the things that is yet to happened. The prophet as the mouthpiece of God has two functions that is to “forth tell” the things comes from the mouth of God and “foretell” which those things yet to happened. No. I don’t need Greek literature to assert something or that goes beyond the Bible. It so happened that Peter says that the prophecy that was spoken by the prophets of old now written scriptures (prophecy of scriptures) were meant to be interpreted as again Peter says. “Knowing this first…interpretation” and when someone interprets the word and “preach” them this thing build up others. I might add, revelation, record of the word of God refers also to the prophecy which happened to be the ‘Holy writ’ or “records”.

Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Revelation 1:2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

Revelation 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

 

[fredoheaven]

Using the Blueletter Bible, I will use Mr. Strong as reference but not a final authority where the word prophesy used 28x with the Biblical usage or idea of speak forth i.e. forth telling and fore telling future events.

[TABLE="width: 606"]
[TR]
[TD]KJV Translation Count — Total: 28x
The KJV translates Strong's G4395 in the following manner: prophesy (28x).
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Outline of Biblical Usage [?]
I. to prophesy, to be a prophet, speak forth by divine inspirations, to predict
A. to prophesy
B. with the idea of foretelling future events pertaining esp. to the kingdom of God
C. to utter forth, declare, a thing which can only be known by divine revelation

D. to break forth under sudden impulse in lofty discourse or praise of the divine counsels

i. under like prompting, to teach, refute, reprove, admonish, comfort others
E. to act as a prophet, discharge the prophetic office

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Strong’s Definitions [?](Strong’s Definitions Legend)
προφητεύω prophēteúō, prof-ate-yoo'-o; from G4396; to foretell events, divine, speak under inspiration, exercise the prophetic office:—prophes
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

 

[presidente]

Thank you for the response but I need some clearing up things.What Paul’s manner of “reasoning is out of the scripture” so I will let scriptures speaks most of the time. In so doing, I may start with the Biblical “preaching” as used in the Bible. What really the Bible says of ‘preaching’? Is biblical preaching goes on outside the church? That the activity or the word is preach is only related to ‘evangelism’ and none else?

Now here are following that Biblical preaching is not only for unbelievers but believers as well.

Acts 20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

I may have a book with the word study in it, but I don't have it here. There are three Greek words typically translated 'preach.' The KJV here departs from form and translates a word that can be translated discourse, discuss, dispute, or teach as 'preach' here. It is the word from which we get the English 'dialogue.' I'm not a KJV-onlyist. This isn't the same word 'preach' used in most other verses about preaching. Actually, I mentioned this passage in another post without citing the location.

Paul could have been teaching them by means of a conversation.

Another in the passage in the same chapter of the Book of Acts to continue:

Acts 20:17 And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church.

Acts 20:25 And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more.

Acts 20:27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.

Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Acts 20:32 And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.

Having Paul went to the Ephesus and called the elders (matured believers/ leaders) of the church among whom he had gone preaching the kingdom of God, declaring all the counsel of God. Feeding the church goes pretty well with the preaching of the word which is able to build them up.

There is no reference to the word 'preach' in this passage. Elders are to be 'apt to teach.' I think we would be in agreement on this that elders should teach the flock of God.

I do not see where the apostles taught the elders to set up a pulpit and not let the congregation speak in the meeting. I Corinthians 14 gives instructions to 'let all things be done unto edifying.' This is in the context of 'every one of you' having a psalm, doctrine, tongue, revelation and/or interpretation. We are to let these things be done unto edifying. Paul writes some further restrictions on proper order which leads to edification in the verses that follow. But the assumption is that these things come from members of the church, not just the 'clergy.' There is not even a reference to elders in the chapter, or 'pastors.' Prophets...more than one... are. This is the most detailed passage we have on what to do in church.

There are some other verses about what to do in church as far as speaking is concerned. One says not to forsake assembly, but to 'exhort one another.' A couple of others say to speak to yourselves in psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs. There is no verse about sitting down, shutting up and letting the preacher preach.

Christians are commanded to use their gifts as good stewards of the grace of God. If a man is gifted at teaching, let him teach. Elders who are appointed to oversee are to be apt to teach, so they should be teaching, too.

2 Timothy 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

Using this as an argument that Timothy was supposed to 'preach' in church is circular reasoning. What about the context restricts Timothy's ministry to some sort of pulpit-pew ministry? In chapter 2, he is told how to interact with those who oppose the message. So the epistle deals with ministry to both believers and unbelievers. A few verses later here in chapter 4 in this same passage, he is told to do the work of an evangelist. Philip the evangelist won souls among those who had, prior to his preaching, not accepted the Gospel message. He wasn't a guest speaker in a Christian church when he baptized those Samaritans.

Timothy was to minister to unbelievers and to believers. He traveled alongside Paul, doing the same sort of ministry Paul did. Here, he is out away from Paul, but he is still likely evangelizing the unsaved (or being charged to at least) as well as disciplining new believers and those who had been in the faith for some time. He'd appoint the local elders to pastor the church.

 

[presidente]

Using the Blueletter Bible, I will use Mr. Strong as reference but not a final authority where the word prophesy used 28x with the Biblical usage or idea of speak forth i.e. forth telling and fore telling future events.

[TABLE="width: 606"]
[TR]
[TD]KJV Translation Count — Total: 28x
The KJV translates Strong's G4395 in the following manner: prophesy (28x).[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Outline of Biblical Usage [?]
I. to prophesy, to be a prophet, speak forth by divine inspirations, to predict
A. to prophesy
B. with the idea of foretelling future events pertaining esp. to the kingdom of God
C. to utter forth, declare, a thing which can only be known by divine revelation

D. to break forth under sudden impulse in lofty discourse or praise of the divine counsels

i. under like prompting, to teach, refute, reprove, admonish, comfort others
E. to act as a prophet, discharge the prophetic office
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Strong’s Definitions [?](Strong’s Definitions Legend)
προφητεύω prophēteúō, prof-ate-yoo'-o; from G4396; to foretell events, divine, speak under inspiration, exercise the prophetic office:—prophes[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

A few bits are sloppy, like including 'predict' as a gloss for the word. Still, it's pretty close to what I've been saying. Notice that 'teach' and 'refute' are given 'under like prompting.' The prompting is revelatory, under the moving of the Spirit. The Spirit can teach. If the Spirit gives an individual a prophecy to speak, and the content is teaching, then it would also be teaching. We can see all kinds of 'Thus saith the Lord' messages in the Old testament. Some teach the people. Some rebuke the people. Some predict future events. Some comfort. It depends on whatever God wanted to say through the prophet.

Teachers will take something God revealed to some past prophet or apostle and explain it, or something God revealed to them in the past and teach it; (Paul taught, even though he'd received prophetic revelation about Christ in the desert.)

 

[fredoheaven]

The idea that prophesying or speaking in tongues died with the apostles is not part of the faith once delivered to the saints.

Technically, do you think we do have Apostles of today besides those who were written in the scriptures?

Thanks,

 

[presidente]

Revelation 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

You'll notice that Revelation is written like an Old Testament book of prophecy. I don't recall a lot of the phrase, 'Thus saith the Lord', but there are 'first person' messages from Christ.

Jesus told John this,
Revelation 1,
19 [FONT=&quot]Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;[/FONT]

And John followed with words quoted from Christ. There are visions of angels, etc., very much in line with the way prophecy was given in Old Testament books.

 

[presidente]

Technically, do you think we do have Apostles of today besides those who were written in the scriptures?

Thanks,

I believe there are 12 apostles of the Lamb who cannot be replaced. Matthias replaced Judas. There are also other apostles, etc. who Christ gave as a gift after the ascension which include messengers sent by the Lord who did such things as introduce the Gospel to new areas like Paul, Barnabas, Epaphras, Silas, and Timothy. Paul referred to himself and Apollos together as apostles. Paul even referred to those who delivered money from the Corinthians as apostles of their church. I'd put that in a different category.

I would say 'no' to your question since Ephesians 4 mentions them.

 

[88]

Yes, Apostles,Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors, & Teacher are here to stay--- until we come to the fullness of Christ----as His Body (Ephesians 4:11-14)

 

[fredoheaven]

[/I]


I may have a book with the word study in it, but I don't have it here. There are three Greek words typically translated 'preach.' The KJV here departs from form and translates a word that can be translated discourse, discuss, dispute, or teach as 'preach' here. It is the word from which we get the English 'dialogue.' I'm not a KJV-onlyist. This isn't the same word 'preach' used in most other verses about preaching. Actually, I mentioned this passage in another post without citing the location.

Paul could have been teaching them by means of a conversation.

Not so fast with the mindset that KJV departs from form. See for example, the word “dispute” if it fits this one of your choice words. It doesn’t. Paul is certainly not “arguing” with the disciples. Then we look for “discuss”. Certainly not!, for the Bible says Paul continued his speech, for in discussion like this we have someone might argue, talk, give his opinion but that’s not the case. His speech is until midnight. That’s preaching! What about “discourse” as another choice words? Discourse carry the idea of conversation and when conversation begun what? There is symbiotic communication, a giving and taking of ideas. The only possible Paul did with the disciples is preach!

Well, are you giving Biblical explanation or doing your own private interpretation or Pentecostal opinion? Umm…

 

[VCO]

That's exactly what Paul is taking about, but he doesn't say put away your spiritual toys, he says grow up in love and then use spiritual gifts in love. That's why we seek prophesy, not just tongues.

1 Corinthians 14:1 ESV
Pursue love, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy.

1 Corinthians 13:11 (NKJV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP]When I was a child, I spoke as a child,
I understood as a child, I thought as a child;
but when I became a man, I put away childish things.


So we are doomed to agree to disagree, yet again, I see.

Except the Prophesy part, which meant to proclaim the Word of GOD, and the Truths of GOD without error. Which was the most precious gift, because back in those days, NOBODY had a pocket Bible, and only the VERY WEALTHY had an actual personal TORAH.

 

[samuel23]

I am not a cessationist, however I do not agree with much of the Pentecostal position. We have something today that the Corinthians did not have at the time of Paul's writings, the final revelation of God given to John. So we have the whole revelation of God today, it is our NT. Prophecy may be used to encourage people but no new doctrine, that has been settled. Many Pentecostals have had their lives turned upside down by a person giving them a prophecy that told them what God wanted them to do. I do not need another person to tell me what God wants me to do, I have the Holy Spirit and God can speak directly to me. Paul had a unique relationship with the churches because Jesus personally gave to him the doctrine to give to the churches. There are no Pauls today receiving new doctrine for the church, we all have the same Holy Spirit and the same NT, so we are all on equal ground and do not need to seek a person to tell us what God wants from us.

 

[presidente]

So we have the whole revelation of God today, it is our NT. Prophecy may be used to encourage people but no new doctrine, that has been settled. Many Pentecostals have had their lives turned upside down by a person giving them a prophecy that told them what God wanted them to do. I do not need another person to tell me what God wants me to do, I have the Holy Spirit and God can speak directly to me.

You've got two issues here. I'd say the traditional Pentecostal position is that prophecies bring no new doctrine. They could emphasize an old, neglected doctrine.

As far as prophecies not telling people what to do, a lot of Assemblies of God folks think like you describe. But I don't think it is Biblical. There are examples in the Bible of the Lord giving a prophecy for someone about something they didn't know yet in the Bible. Even babies, like Samson or John the Baptist could have prophecies or other revelations about their future life. We have no authority to say that God is not allowed to do something that the Bible has not revealed that He will not do. So, if God wants to give someone a prophecy about your calling or your future life, that is up to him.

But we are all responsible for making whatever decisions are committed to us with whatever information we have. If someone gives you a true prophecy telling you to be a missionary in Africa, and you don't do it, you are responsible before God for that. if someone gives you a false prophecy telling you to be a missionary in Africa, and you do it, you are responsible before God for that decision as well. You have to decide whether you have the authority to make the decision, first of all, and if you do, what you believe God wants you to do. We have to be discerning. If you trust in the Lord with all your heart, lean not to your own understanding, and in all your ways acknowledge Him, He will direct your paths.

It is weird to me how much fear comes into play when it comes into doctrines like this. There are people who don't want to believe that God might give a directive prophecy because then they would be responsible for determining whether such prophecies are from God or not. That's uncomfortable for a lot of people. But God put early Christians in the first century in that situation, not to mention people in the Old Testament, so why are we exempt from learning to discern?

Someone or maybe more than one person prophesied some things about Timothy's ministry. Paul did not tell him to ignore that. He told him that by those prophecies, he should fight a good warfare. Timothy even received a spiritual gifts through a prophecy being given to him, with the laying on of hands of the elders.

 

[presidente]

Except the Prophesy part, which meant to proclaim the Word of GOD, and the Truths of GOD without error.

A man-made definition. What would teaching, exhortation, or evangelism be, then, proclaiming with error? Clearly not.

Which was the most precious gift, because back in those days, NOBODY had a pocket Bible, and only the VERY WEALTHY had an actual personal TORAH.

But according to the scholar Eidersheim's _Life and Times..._ copies of the Greek LXX translation were fairly widely owned and were about twice the price of books in his own day. Eidersheim wrote in the 1800's, but his writings are still every valuable.

VCO blocked me for pointing out error in his posts, but here I go again. Other people can see.