Tongues

[CS1]

Tongues: The most Pentecostal/charismatic movement teaches, that speaking in tongues is a sign of receiving the Holy Spirit.
The only scriptures who can confirm this, we find in the book of acts. 3 events showing that receiving the Holy spirit is connected with speaking in tongues:
Acts 2: as a fulfillment (partly) from Joel 3 as proof for the Jews
Acts 10: as proof for Jews and the gentiles that the gospel is also for gentiles
Acts 19: as proof for the disciples of John the Baptist, that Jesus is the Messiah. (in this time the church in Corinth already exists)
If it is true, that this would be the measure (speaking in tongues) to receive the Holy Spirit, then the most believers, including me, don’t have the Holy Spirit.
Some Pentecostals/charismatics teaches that the baptizing with the Holy spirit is a second event for a believer and the sign for that is speaking in tongues. And call it: full with the spirit.
My question is: what is meant with full of the spirit for a believer? When he lives holy? Without sinning?
According this doctrine we can only find Christians which are have the fullness of the spirit in Pentecostal churches and among charismatics.
But this doctrine has no biblical foundation! If yes please show me.
And if you go through the first 14 chapters of the 1. Letter to the Corinthians you find many points which proof that the believers in the church are lacking to be holy in sense of living a holy live. And this you can find also in the last verses from chapter 12 in 2. Letter to the Corinthians.
But this doctrines were given from the first Pentecostal teachers in the 1880´s and then from 1906 on. How can the Holy Spirit began a revival with such false doctrines and signs?
How it came to a second Pentecost without having a prophecy for that? Joel 3 is only meant for the Jews and the final fulfillment we will have in future.

Again you say most and yet you are not correct in ref to: Pentecostals. Sorry your not correct in that. So if you want to talk about the Biblical accounts of this Move of God, great! I am willing to do that.

" The only scriptures who can confirm this, we find in the book of acts. 3 events showing that receiving the Holy spirit is connected with speaking in tongues:"

I think you did not read all of Acts . that being said how many events do you need to establish a normative in scripture? and your dates are not correct about the teaching of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. the doctrine of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit was taught by 1. Jesus in the Gospels 2. shown in the starting of the early church in the book of Acts, and instruction given on them in 1cor 12, 13, 14. and in many other scriptural ref too.

This statement too is a strawman

" If it is true, that this would be the measure (speaking in tongues) to receive the Holy Spirit, then the most believers, including me, don’t have the Holy Spirit.".

If you are going to say things like this then at least ensure that is what is being said. Because I am not saying that.
hear is what I think the bible teaches on the topic; you can agree or if you do not agree Great Your salvation and mind has nothing to do with tongues ok, Now In the Gospel of John 20:22 Jesus said this "And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:"

Jesus had already risen from the dead and I believe after Jesus said this to them they were saved. NOW this was said BEfore Pentecost
after Jesus did this
Luke 24:49 sayes : " And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.".
These saved People were told by Jesus to wait. They had the Holy Spirit because they Knew Jesus as Lord and we all know no one can know Jesus as Lord unless the Holy Spirit is in them. So Then Acts 1:8 instruction by Jesus and manifested in Acts chapter 2; this was another work of the Holy Spirit in the Believer; "again a work in the Believer" = a person already saved. So how a pentecostal could say that you are not saved if Jesus is your Lord is not biblical. You stated that some pentecostals say this is second event I would not use that word but something happen to the 120 After Jesus breathed on them in John 20:22 .
I would like to hear what you think. and You really have to look at the Spirit of God in the Old testament too. I would like to talk about that.

 

[CS1]

he did not use the word Babble in matt 6:5-8 states
":5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
:6But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
:8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.
This is how the heathens/ hypocrites prayed NOT the Believer in Christ or how those with Spiritual gift are to Pray. Jesus was also addressing what was being done for mans approval instead of seeking God.

Acts 2: 1 " And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.".

120 Praying out Loud and it was of God and not babbling and the tongues there was not even stated if there was an interpretation .

The bible tells us there are many kinds of prayer not just those in tongues

1tim 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
1cor 14:14
1thess 5:17
Eph 6:18
Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

[/QUOte

in our german bible the word is used: "geplapper" and this means babbling, meaningless words.

"in our german bible the word is used: "geplapper" and this means babbling, meaningless words.

"

I am sorry to hear that because the Context of each of the verses you quoted are not meaningless words and if you are not using the authorial intent please remove the word that Babbling would replace and see if it is the context of the passage

 

[CS1]

many bibles translate this as babble

GNV and NIV both use babble
7 Also when ye pray, use no vain repetitions as the Heathen: for they think to be heard for their much babbling.

the word in question is battalogeó

Strong's Concordance battalogeó: to stammer
Short Definition: I chatter, utter empty words. Definition: I chatter, am long-winded, utter empty words, stammer, repeat.

​chatter, stammer both sound like babble to me

ok in the Greek I do not see babble in ref to : Acts 2:2 it is glōssa = [FONT=arial, helvetica, sans serif]the language or dialect used by a particular people distinct from that of other nations[/FONT]
[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans serif] Your strong definition is not the contextual meaning G1100
What Jesus said in Matt 6 has nothing to do with what is happening in Acts 2, 1 cor 12, 13, 14 [/FONT]

 

[CS1]

Then this thread is a privat club which excludes all, who dont speak ore pray in tongues. I must say this is not biblical, because even in Pauls days not all christians could pray ore speak in tongues. I realy cant see that the Holy spirit is behind this doctrine. Nobody on this thread can ore want answer what i posted in nr.225.
If i am wrong then please correct me.

it was answered LOL more than once but you do not have to agree with it

 

[jaybird88]

that is your opinion however, nobody here has said you have to speak in tongues or a language of the angels that is a strawman.

i never said anyone did, i was just giving my opinion on it. thats why i used the term "I think"

please explain to me the difference between praying to the Lord in your common language (the way Jesus taught) and praying in the angel language.

 

[jaybird88]

ok in the Greek I do not see babble in ref to : Acts 2:2 it is glōssa = the language or dialect used by a particular people distinct from that of other nations
Your strong definition is not the contextual meaning G1100
What Jesus said in Matt 6 has nothing to do with what is happening in Acts 2, 1 cor 12, 13, 14

we were referring to what Jesus said in matt 6. not acts

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I've learned a lot in this thread CS1. Thank you for it! Bowing out of it. I think the gift you've been given is wonderful.

 

[wolfwint]

i agree the bible gives examples of many kinds of prayers. assembly prayers, group prayer, etc. of all the types of prayer Jesus taught on private prayer. He taught the importance of solitude and silence. and he made it very clear when we speak to the Father in our common language the Father can understand us just fine.
IMO Jesus emphasized these things because so many had lost their individual bonds with the Father. Jesus wanted each of us to have our own unique relationship with the Father just as He did. i think its wrong to teach or to suggest to people they need a language of the angels to have this kind of relationship. its not what Jesus taught.

Again you say most and yet you are not correct in ref to: Pentecostals. Sorry your not correct in that. So if you want to talk about the Biblical accounts of this Move of God, great! I am willing to do that.

" The only scriptures who can confirm this, we find in the book of acts. 3 events showing that receiving the Holy spirit is connected with speaking in tongues:"

I think you did not read all of Acts . that being said how many events do you need to establish a normative in scripture? and your dates are not correct about the teaching of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. the doctrine of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit was taught by 1. Jesus in the Gospels 2. shown in the starting of the early church in the book of Acts, and instruction given on them in 1cor 12, 13, 14. and in many other scriptural ref too.

This statement too is a strawman

" If it is true, that this would be the measure (speaking in tongues) to receive the Holy Spirit, then the most believers, including me, don’t have the Holy Spirit.".

If you are going to say things like this then at least ensure that is what is being said. Because I am not saying that.
hear is what I think the bible teaches on the topic; you can agree or if you do not agree Great Your salvation and mind has nothing to do with tongues ok, Now In the Gospel of John 20:22 Jesus said this "And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:"

Jesus had already risen from the dead and I believe after Jesus said this to them they were saved. NOW this was said BEfore Pentecost
after Jesus did this
Luke 24:49 sayes : " And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.".
These saved People were told by Jesus to wait. They had the Holy Spirit because they Knew Jesus as Lord and we all know no one can know Jesus as Lord unless the Holy Spirit is in them. So Then Acts 1:8 instruction by Jesus and manifested in Acts chapter 2; this was another work of the Holy Spirit in the Believer; "again a work in the Believer" = a person already saved. So how a pentecostal could say that you are not saved if Jesus is your Lord is not biblical. You stated that some pentecostals say this is second event I would not use that word but something happen to the 120 After Jesus breathed on them in John 20:22 .
I would like to hear what you think. and You really have to look at the Spirit of God in the Old testament too. I would like to talk about that.

Thank you brother for reply, please give me some time for the answer. And let US remember what the Lord did for US at the cross!
Time for sleeping now. God night!

 

[wolfwint]

it was answered LOL more than once but you do not have to agree with it

Where are the answers?

 

[ukok102nak]

:smoke: please
:read:
1 Corinthians 14:4
The one who speaks in a tongue builds up himself, but the one who prophesies builds up the church.

:8) as it is written
:read:
1 Corinthians 14:23
If, therefore, the whole church comes together and all speak in tongues, and outsiders or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are out of your minds?
24*But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or outsider enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all,
25*n the secrets of his heart are disclosed, and so, o falling on his face, he will worship God and p declare that God is really among you.

:ty:

godbless us all always

 

[jaybird88]

Where are the answers?

they didnt answer, they gave sideways answers, answering with scripture that has nothing to do with subject.. i asked many questions to and they were ignored as well.

 

[notuptome]

ok in the Greek I do not see babble in ref to : Acts 2:2 it is glōssa = the language or dialect used by a particular people distinct from that of other nations
Your strong definition is not the contextual meaning G1100
What Jesus said in Matt 6 has nothing to do with what is happening in Acts 2, 1 cor 12, 13, 14

Again what you say here is true according to the bible but it is contradicted by the behavior of those in the church. I agree that scripture does not teach that tongues were babbling but many today babble and call it tongues. How is one edified by such behavior?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[pottersclay]

Tongues what a amazing gift, but what does it prophet you? Is your ministry that the Lord blessed you with so diversified that the gift is needed? Is your prayer life so enhanced or so broken that the gift is needed to edify?
Do you need a sign from God to confirm his promise that the holy spirit dwells in you?
And if this gift of men and angels is evident but no love is found for the brothers and sisters what profit is it? To say that I do have the gift therefore I'm more spiritual . And if I lack this gift I have not the promise?
I believe the Lord will bless you with the tools needed for his good pleasure.
Seek you first the kingdom of God and his righteousness and all shall be added onto you.
Little children love one another.

 

[wolfwint]

Again you say most and yet you are not correct in ref to: Pentecostals. Sorry your not correct in that. So if you want to talk about the Biblical accounts of this Move of God, great! I am willing to do that.

" The only scriptures who can confirm this, we find in the book of acts. 3 events showing that receiving the Holy spirit is connected with speaking in tongues:"

I think you did not read all of Acts . that being said how many events do you need to establish a normative in scripture? and your dates are not correct about the teaching of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. the doctrine of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit was taught by 1. Jesus in the Gospels 2. shown in the starting of the early church in the book of Acts, and instruction given on them in 1cor 12, 13, 14. and in many other scriptural ref too.

This statement too is a strawman

" If it is true, that this would be the measure (speaking in tongues) to receive the Holy Spirit, then the most believers, including me, don’t have the Holy Spirit.".

If you are going to say things like this then at least ensure that is what is being said. Because I am not saying that.
hear is what I think the bible teaches on the topic; you can agree or if you do not agree Great Your salvation and mind has nothing to do with tongues ok, Now In the Gospel of John 20:22 Jesus said this "And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:"

Jesus had already risen from the dead and I believe after Jesus said this to them they were saved. NOW this was said BEfore Pentecost
after Jesus did this
Luke 24:49 sayes : " And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.".
These saved People were told by Jesus to wait. They had the Holy Spirit because they Knew Jesus as Lord and we all know no one can know Jesus as Lord unless the Holy Spirit is in them. So Then Acts 1:8 instruction by Jesus and manifested in Acts chapter 2; this was another work of the Holy Spirit in the Believer; "again a work in the Believer" = a person already saved. So how a pentecostal could say that you are not saved if Jesus is your Lord is not biblical. You stated that some pentecostals say this is second event I would not use that word but something happen to the 120 After Jesus breathed on them in John 20:22 .
I would like to hear what you think. and You really have to look at the Spirit of God in the Old testament too. I would like to talk about that.

Again you say most and yet you are not correct in ref to: Pentecostals. Sorry your not correct in that. So if you want to talk about the Biblical accounts of this Move of God, great! I am willing to do that.

" The only scriptures who can confirm this, we find in the book of acts. 3 events showing that receiving the Holy spirit is connected with speaking in tongues:"

I think you did not read all of Acts . that being said how many events do you need to establish a normative in scripture? and your dates are not correct about the teaching of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. the doctrine of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit was taught by 1. Jesus in the Gospels 2. shown in the starting of the early church in the book of Acts, and instruction given on them in 1cor 12, 13, 14. and in many other scriptural ref too.

This statement too is a strawman

" If it is true, that this would be the measure (speaking in tongues) to receive the Holy Spirit, then the most believers, including me, don’t have the Holy Spirit.".

If you are going to say things like this then at least ensure that is what is being said. Because I am not saying that.
hear is what I think the bible teaches on the topic; you can agree or if you do not agree Great

Your salvation and mind has nothing to do with tongues ok, Now In the Gospel of John 20:22 Jesus said this "And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:"



Again you say most and yet you are not correct in ref to: Pentecostals. Sorry your not correct in that. So if you want to talk about the Biblical accounts of this Move of God, great! I am willing to do that.
………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….................................
So I should say all? In the teaching of the Pentecostals and charismatics we can found of course today different meanings. A) the sign of receiving the Holy spirit is speaking in tongues.
B) A believer can be saved without having the Power of the spirit, but without the Baptism with the Holy Spirit he will lack something in his christian life. And as sign for that is talking in tongues (this we cant find in the Bible) if yes pleas show me!
The word of god nowhere prophecies a second Pentecost. If yes, then show me. I know that some take Joel 3. As reason for that. But it is addressed to the volk of Israel. (literally) And this event we will see in future.
I said. If the teachings from the Pentecostals/Charismatics are right. Then all other Christians before 1906 (out of the apostolic time) are wrong! And all Christians which deny this teachings are wrong!
…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….
" The only scriptures who can confirm this, we find in the book of acts. 3 events showing that receiving the Holy spirit is connected with speaking in tongues:"

I think you did not read all of Acts . that being said how many events do you need to establish a normative in scripture? and your dates are not correct about the teaching of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. the doctrine of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit was taught by 1. Jesus in the Gospels 2. shown in the starting of the early church in the book of Acts, and instruction given on them in 1cor 12, 13, 14. and in many other scriptural ref too.

This statement too is a strawman
……………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………..

What you mean with strawman?
I found in the book of acts only these 3 events ( acts 2,2-11; acts 10,44-46; 19,3-7) where the receiving of the Holy spirit is mentioned along with speaking in tongues. If you found more, please show me! And the mentioning had a special purpose which we can find in the context itself.
To 1. Where in the gospel Jesus taught about the doctrine of the gifts of the Holy Spirit?
To 2. The coming of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost has nothing to do with the doctrine of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. It is right, that 1. Cor. taught about the gifts of the Holy Spirit, but this has nothing to do with receiving the Holy Spirit. And that what the Pentecostal/Charismatic doctrine teaches how to become the Holy Spirit ore to be filled with the Holy spirit to be empowerd is not biblical.
The believers in Corinth are the best model to show that getting the gifts is not a question of how holy somebody lives. (I mentioned the Verses before: 1. Cor. Chapter 1-14 and 2. Cor.12 the last verses.)
……………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….
" If it is true, that this would be the measure (speaking in tongues) to receive the Holy Spirit, then the most believers, including me, don’t have the Holy Spirit.".

If you are going to say things like this then at least ensure that is what is being said. Because I am not saying that.
…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….
Yes, you have not say this, it is a logical conclusion! But with most believers I am maybe wrong. If we count 600-800 Millions of Pentecost and Charismatics and the most of the official called Christians are only nominal Christians, then I am wrong in this.
…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………..

hear is what I think the bible teaches on the topic; you can agree or if you do not agree Great

Your salvation and mind has nothing to do with tongues ok, Now In the Gospel of John 20:22 Jesus said this "And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:"
Jesus had already risen from the dead and I believe after Jesus said this to them they were saved. NOW this was said BEfore Pentecost
after Jesus did this
Luke 24:49 sayes : " And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.".
These saved People were told by Jesus to wait. They had the Holy Spirit because they Knew Jesus as Lord and we all know no one can know Jesus as Lord unless the Holy Spirit is in them.
……………………………………………………………………………………………………………

Well, then some points I want give you for thinking about concerning this.

1. John 20,22 speaks about that Jesus blows the disciples on for receiving the Holy Ghost. I would understand it in this way that Jesus gave to his disciples a special authority which is never repeated after that. The authority to forgive sin Vers 23.
2. Notice that Thomas was not among them, when they was blowed on from Jesus.
3. What is the condition to be saved? Only faith!
4. People believed without having the Holy Spirit in them: f.e. Martha (John 11,24-27); the blindborn man (John,9,36-38); are t, hey saved? Yes, because of their faith. Did they got the Holy Spirit? No, because he was not yet given to them before Pentecost.
5. Thomas met Jesus eight days after he shows himself to the disciples. And he confessed: My Lord and my God, without having the Holy Spirit.(John 20,26-28).
6. Jesus reply in vers 29 is interesting: “Blessed are those who believe without seeing.” For me it seems for believers it is important to feel Jesus, to have special experiences, more then to believe him. They want have Jesus us friend. What Jesus said in John 15,14?.” You are my friends when you do what I command to you.” For me it seem that many like to read only the first part of this vers.

………………………………………………………………………………………………………….........................................................................

So Then Acts 1:8 instruction by Jesus and manifested in Acts chapter 2; this was another work of the Holy Spirit in the Believer; "again a work in the Believer" = a person already saved. So how a pentecostal could say that you are not saved if Jesus is your Lord is not biblical.
…………………………………………………………………………………………………….
Because, Pentecostal teaches (this was special in the beginning ) that as sign of receiving the Holy Spirit it talking in tongues. And born again without the holy spirit is not possible. And if somebody is not born again he is not saved. I know today not all teaching this.
Yes, I agree the 120 had been believers and if they would be killed before the day of Pentecost, they would be in heaven, because of their faith.(According the OT condition) But to say that they all had the Holy Spirit before the Holy Spirit came on the day of Pentecost is speculation and nowhere written in the word of god.

The event on Pentecost was a special sign, as well in Cornelius house ore with the disciples of John the Baptist. That Jesus has sent his paraklet. Which we can´t bring into a doctrine which stated that Christians need a special baptizing with the Holy Spirit. This is not exegetic from the text, but eisegeses for to try to proof a certain doctrine.
…………………………………………………………………………………………………………
You stated that some pentecostals say this is second event I would not use that word but something happen to the 120 After Jesus breathed on them in John 20:22 .
I would like to hear what you think. and You really have to look at the Spirit of God in the Old testament too. I would like to talk about that.
……………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………
How you came to the meaning that the 120 were together in John 20,22?
Many Pentecostals and Charismatics using this termination. Without having the baptizing with the Holy Spirit you lack something.
Yes of course something happened to them, they became the Holy Spirit living in them, what was not before! And if you notice please the reaction from the Apostels after getting the Holy Spirit. They don’t hide anymore, they became bold and brave to spread the gospel. This was not before the day of Pentecost.
In the OT we see that Gods spirit was temporary on special people for special purpose. But since Pentecost the Holy Spirit is constant living in every person who is born again.
So far, hope you can follow my writings. Have a blessed good Friday!

 

[wolfwint]

Again you say most and yet you are not correct in ref to: Pentecostals. Sorry your not correct in that. So if you want to talk about the Biblical accounts of this Move of God, great! I am willing to do that.


Again you say most and yet you are not correct in ref to: Pentecostals. Sorry your not correct in that. So if you want to talk about the Biblical accounts of this Move of God, great! I am willing to do that.
………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….................................
So I should say all? In the teaching of the Pentecostals and charismatics we can found of course today different meanings. A) the sign of receiving the Holy spirit is speaking in tongues.
B) A believer can be saved without having the Power of the spirit, but without the Baptism with the Holy Spirit he will lack something in his christian life. And as sign for that is talking in tongues (this we cant find in the Bible) if yes pleas show me!
The word of god nowhere prophecies a second Pentecost. If yes, then show me. I know that some take Joel 3. As reason for that. But it is addressed to the volk of Israel. (literally) And this event we will see in future.
I said. If the teachings from the Pentecostals/Charismatics are right. Then all other Christians before 1906 (out of the apostolic time) are wrong! And all Christians which deny this teachings are wrong!
…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….
" The only scriptures who can confirm this, we find in the book of acts. 3 events showing that receiving the Holy spirit is connected with speaking in tongues:"

I think you did not read all of Acts . that being said how many events do you need to establish a normative in scripture? and your dates are not correct about the teaching of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. the doctrine of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit was taught by 1. Jesus in the Gospels 2. shown in the starting of the early church in the book of Acts, and instruction given on them in 1cor 12, 13, 14. and in many other scriptural ref too.

This statement too is a strawman
……………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………..

What you mean with strawman?
I found in the book of acts only these 3 events ( acts 2,2-11; acts 10,44-46; 19,3-7) where the receiving of the Holy spirit is mentioned along with speaking in tongues. If you found more, please show me! And the mentioning had a special purpose which we can find in the context itself.
To 1. Where in the gospel Jesus taught about the doctrine of the gifts of the Holy Spirit?
To 2. The coming of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost has nothing to do with the doctrine of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. It is right, that 1. Cor. taught about the gifts of the Holy Spirit, but this has nothing to do with receiving the Holy Spirit. And that what the Pentecostal/Charismatic doctrine teaches how to become the Holy Spirit ore to be filled with the Holy spirit to be empowerd is not biblical.
The believers in Corinth are the best model to show that getting the gifts is not a question of how holy somebody lives. (I mentioned the Verses before: 1. Cor. Chapter 1-14 and 2. Cor.12 the last verses.)
……………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….
" If it is true, that this would be the measure (speaking in tongues) to receive the Holy Spirit, then the most believers, including me, don’t have the Holy Spirit.".

If you are going to say things like this then at least ensure that is what is being said. Because I am not saying that.
…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….
Yes, you have not say this, it is a logical conclusion! But with most believers I am maybe wrong. If we count 600-800 Millions of Pentecost and Charismatics and the most of the official called Christians are only nominal Christians, then I am wrong in this.
…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………..

hear is what I think the bible teaches on the topic; you can agree or if you do not agree Great

Your salvation and mind has nothing to do with tongues ok, Now In the Gospel of John 20:22 Jesus said this "And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:"
Jesus had already risen from the dead and I believe after Jesus said this to them they were saved. NOW this was said BEfore Pentecost
after Jesus did this
Luke 24:49 sayes : " And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.".
These saved People were told by Jesus to wait. They had the Holy Spirit because they Knew Jesus as Lord and we all know no one can know Jesus as Lord unless the Holy Spirit is in them.
……………………………………………………………………………………………………………

Well, then some points I want give you for thinking about concerning this.

1. John 20,22 speaks about that Jesus blows the disciples on for receiving the Holy Ghost. I would understand it in this way that Jesus gave to his disciples a special authority which is never repeated after that. The authority to forgive sin Vers 23.
2. Notice that Thomas was not among them, when they was blowed on from Jesus.
3. What is the condition to be saved? Only faith!
4. People believed without having the Holy Spirit in them: f.e. Martha (John 11,24-27); the blindborn man (John,9,36-38); are t, hey saved? Yes, because of their faith. Did they got the Holy Spirit? No, because he was not yet given to them before Pentecost.
5. Thomas met Jesus eight days after he shows himself to the disciples. And he confessed: My Lord and my God, without having the Holy Spirit.(John 20,26-28).
6. Jesus reply in vers 29 is interesting: “Blessed are those who believe without seeing.” For me it seems for believers it is important to feel Jesus, to have special experiences, more then to believe him. They want have Jesus us friend. What Jesus said in John 15,14?.” You are my friends when you do what I command to you.” For me it seem that many like to read only the first part of this vers.

………………………………………………………………………………………………………….........................................................................

So Then Acts 1:8 instruction by Jesus and manifested in Acts chapter 2; this was another work of the Holy Spirit in the Believer; "again a work in the Believer" = a person already saved. So how a pentecostal could say that you are not saved if Jesus is your Lord is not biblical.
…………………………………………………………………………………………………….
Because, Pentecostal teaches (this was special in the beginning ) that as sign of receiving the Holy Spirit it talking in tongues. And born again without the holy spirit is not possible. And if somebody is not born again he is not saved. I know today not all teaching this.
Yes, I agree the 120 had been believers and if they would be killed before the day of Pentecost, they would be in heaven, because of their faith.(According the OT condition) But to say that they all had the Holy Spirit before the Holy Spirit came on the day of Pentecost is speculation and nowhere written in the word of god.

The event on Pentecost was a special sign, as well in Cornelius house ore with the disciples of John the Baptist. That Jesus has sent his paraklet. Which we can´t bring into a doctrine which stated that Christians need a special baptizing with the Holy Spirit. This is not exegetic from the text, but eisegeses for to try to proof a certain doctrine.
…………………………………………………………………………………………………………
You stated that some pentecostals say this is second event I would not use that word but something happen to the 120 After Jesus breathed on them in John 20:22 .
I would like to hear what you think. and You really have to look at the Spirit of God in the Old testament too. I would like to talk about that.
……………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………
How you came to the meaning that the 120 were together in John 20,22?
Many Pentecostals and Charismatics using this termination. Without having the baptizing with the Holy Spirit you lack something.
Yes of course something happened to them, they became the Holy Spirit living in them, what was not before! And if you notice please the reaction from the Apostels after getting the Holy Spirit. They don’t hide anymore, they became bold and brave to spread the gospel. This was not before the day of Pentecost.
In the OT we see that Gods spirit was temporary on special people for special purpose. But since Pentecost the Holy Spirit is constant living in every person who is born again.
So far, hope you can follow my writings. Have a blessed good Friday!

 

[wolfwint]

Again you say most and yet you are not correct in ref to: Pentecostals. Sorry your not correct in that. So if you want to talk about the Biblical accounts of this Move of God, great! I am willing to do that.

" The only scriptures who can confirm this, we find in the book of acts. 3 events showing that receiving the Holy spirit is connected with speaking in tongues:"

I think you did not read all of Acts . that being said how many events do you need to establish a normative in scripture? and your dates are not correct about the teaching of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. the doctrine of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit was taught by 1. Jesus in the Gospels 2. shown in the starting of the early church in the book of Acts, and instruction given on them in 1cor 12, 13, 14. and in many other scriptural ref too.

This statement too is a strawman

" If it is true, that this would be the measure (speaking in tongues) to receive the Holy Spirit, then the most believers, including me, don’t have the Holy Spirit.".

If you are going to say things like this then at least ensure that is what is being said. Because I am not saying that.
hear is what I think the bible teaches on the topic; you can agree or if you do not agree Great

Your salvation and mind has nothing to do with tongues ok, Now In the Gospel of John 20:22 Jesus said this "And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:"



Again you say most and yet you are not correct in ref to: Pentecostals. Sorry your not correct in that. So if you want to talk about the Biblical accounts of this Move of God, great! I am willing to do that.
………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….................................
So I should say all? In the teaching of the Pentecostals and charismatics we can found of course today different meanings. A) the sign of receiving the Holy spirit is speaking in tongues.
B) A believer can be saved without having the Power of the spirit, but without the Baptism with the Holy Spirit he will lack something in his christian life. And as sign for that is talking in tongues (this we cant find in the Bible) if yes pleas show me!
The word of god nowhere prophecies a second Pentecost. If yes, then show me. I know that some take Joel 3. As reason for that. But it is addressed to the volk of Israel. (literally) And this event we will see in future.
I said. If the teachings from the Pentecostals/Charismatics are right. Then all other Christians before 1906 (out of the apostolic time) are wrong! And all Christians which deny this teachings are wrong!
…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….
" The only scriptures who can confirm this, we find in the book of acts. 3 events showing that receiving the Holy spirit is connected with speaking in tongues:"

I think you did not read all of Acts . that being said how many events do you need to establish a normative in scripture? and your dates are not correct about the teaching of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. the doctrine of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit was taught by 1. Jesus in the Gospels 2. shown in the starting of the early church in the book of Acts, and instruction given on them in 1cor 12, 13, 14. and in many other scriptural ref too.

This statement too is a strawman
……………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………..

What you mean with strawman?
I found in the book of acts only these 3 events ( acts 2,2-11; acts 10,44-46; 19,3-7) where the receiving of the Holy spirit is mentioned along with speaking in tongues. If you found more, please show me! And the mentioning had a special purpose which we can find in the context itself.
To 1. Where in the gospel Jesus taught about the doctrine of the gifts of the Holy Spirit?
To 2. The coming of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost has nothing to do with the doctrine of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. It is right, that 1. Cor. taught about the gifts of the Holy Spirit, but this has nothing to do with receiving the Holy Spirit. And that what the Pentecostal/Charismatic doctrine teaches how to become the Holy Spirit ore to be filled with the Holy spirit to be empowerd is not biblical.
The believers in Corinth are the best model to show that getting the gifts is not a question of how holy somebody lives. (I mentioned the Verses before: 1. Cor. Chapter 1-14 and 2. Cor.12 the last verses.)
……………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….
" If it is true, that this would be the measure (speaking in tongues) to receive the Holy Spirit, then the most believers, including me, don’t have the Holy Spirit.".

If you are going to say things like this then at least ensure that is what is being said. Because I am not saying that.
…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….
Yes, you have not say this, it is a logical conclusion! But with most believers I am maybe wrong. If we count 600-800 Millions of Pentecost and Charismatics and the most of the official called Christians are only nominal Christians, then I am wrong in this.
…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………..

hear is what I think the bible teaches on the topic; you can agree or if you do not agree Great

Your salvation and mind has nothing to do with tongues ok, Now In the Gospel of John 20:22 Jesus said this "And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:"
Jesus had already risen from the dead and I believe after Jesus said this to them they were saved. NOW this was said BEfore Pentecost
after Jesus did this
Luke 24:49 sayes : " And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.".
These saved People were told by Jesus to wait. They had the Holy Spirit because they Knew Jesus as Lord and we all know no one can know Jesus as Lord unless the Holy Spirit is in them.
……………………………………………………………………………………………………………

Well, then some points I want give you for thinking about concerning this.

1. John 20,22 speaks about that Jesus blows the disciples on for receiving the Holy Ghost. I would understand it in this way that Jesus gave to his disciples a special authority which is never repeated after that. The authority to forgive sin Vers 23.
2. Notice that Thomas was not among them, when they was blowed on from Jesus.
3. What is the condition to be saved? Only faith!
4. People believed without having the Holy Spirit in them: f.e. Martha (John 11,24-27); the blindborn man (John,9,36-38); are t, hey saved? Yes, because of their faith. Did they got the Holy Spirit? No, because he was not yet given to them before Pentecost.
5. Thomas met Jesus eight days after he shows himself to the disciples. And he confessed: My Lord and my God, without having the Holy Spirit.(John 20,26-28).
6. Jesus reply in vers 29 is interesting: “Blessed are those who believe without seeing.” For me it seems for believers it is important to feel Jesus, to have special experiences, more then to believe him. They want have Jesus us friend. What Jesus said in John 15,14?.” You are my friends when you do what I command to you.” For me it seem that many like to read only the first part of this vers.

………………………………………………………………………………………………………….........................................................................

So Then Acts 1:8 instruction by Jesus and manifested in Acts chapter 2; this was another work of the Holy Spirit in the Believer; "again a work in the Believer" = a person already saved. So how a pentecostal could say that you are not saved if Jesus is your Lord is not biblical.
…………………………………………………………………………………………………….
Because, Pentecostal teaches (this was special in the beginning ) that as sign of receiving the Holy Spirit it talking in tongues. And born again without the holy spirit is not possible. And if somebody is not born again he is not saved. I know today not all teaching this.
Yes, I agree the 120 had been believers and if they would be killed before the day of Pentecost, they would be in heaven, because of their faith.(According the OT condition) But to say that they all had the Holy Spirit before the Holy Spirit came on the day of Pentecost is speculation and nowhere written in the word of god.

The event on Pentecost was a special sign, as well in Cornelius house ore with the disciples of John the Baptist. That Jesus has sent his paraklet. Which we can´t bring into a doctrine which stated that Christians need a special baptizing with the Holy Spirit. This is not exegetic from the text, but eisegeses for to try to proof a certain doctrine.
…………………………………………………………………………………………………………
You stated that some pentecostals say this is second event I would not use that word but something happen to the 120 After Jesus breathed on them in John 20:22 .
I would like to hear what you think. and You really have to look at the Spirit of God in the Old testament too. I would like to talk about that.
……………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………
How you came to the meaning that the 120 were together in John 20,22?
Many Pentecostals and Charismatics using this termination. Without having the baptizing with the Holy Spirit you lack something.
Yes of course something happened to them, they became the Holy Spirit living in them, what was not before! And if you notice please the reaction from the Apostels after getting the Holy Spirit. They don’t hide anymore, they became bold and brave to spread the gospel. This was not before the day of Pentecost.
In the OT we see that Gods spirit was temporary on special people for special purpose. But since Pentecost the Holy Spirit is constant living in every person who is born again.
So far, hope you can follow my writings.

Wish you a blessed ressurection feast! Jesus is risen from the death! Halleluhjah!

 

[wolfwint]

Sorry CS1, something went wrong with post 255

 

[wolfwint]

and also with post 257. I will try again!

 

[wolfwint]

from CS1
Again you say most and yet you are not correct in ref to: Pentecostals. Sorry your not correct in that. So if you want to talk about the Biblical accounts of this Move of God, great! I am willing to do that.

" The only scriptures who can confirm this, we find in the book of acts. 3 events showing that receiving the Holy spirit is connected with speaking in tongues:"

I think you did not read all of Acts . that being said how many events do you need to establish a normative in scripture? and your dates are not correct about the teaching of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. the doctrine of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit was taught by 1. Jesus in the Gospels 2. shown in the starting of the early church in the book of Acts, and instruction given on them in 1cor 12, 13, 14. and in many other scriptural ref too.

This statement too is a strawman

" If it is true, that this would be the measure (speaking in tongues) to receive the Holy Spirit, then the most believers, including me, don’t have the Holy Spirit.".

If you are going to say things like this then at least ensure that is what is being said. Because I am not saying that.
hear is what I think the bible teaches on the topic; you can agree or if you do not agree Great

Your salvation and mind has nothing to do with tongues ok, Now In the Gospel of John 20:22 Jesus said this "And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:"

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Again you say most and yet you are not correct in ref to: Pentecostals. Sorry your not correct in that. So if you want to talk about the Biblical accounts of this Move of God, great! I am willing to do that.
…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………
So I say should say all? In the teaching of the Pentecostals and charismatics we can found of course today different meanings. A) the sign of receiving the Holy spirit is speaking in tongues. (but we must recognize in acts this were languages like Greek ore Persian ore German)
B) A believer can be saved without having the Power of the spirit. For that he needs the Baptism with the Holy Spirit. And as sign for that is talking in tongues (this we cant find in the Bible) if yes pleas show me!

The word of god nowhere prophecies a second Pentecost. If yes, then show me. I know that some take Joel 3. As reason for that. But it is addressed to the volk of Israel. (literally) And this event we will see in future.
I said. If the teachings from the Pentecostals/Charismatics are right. Then all other Christians before 1906 (out of the apostolic time) are wrong! And all Christians which deny this teachings are wrong!
…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….
" The only scriptures who can confirm this, we find in the book of acts. 3 events showing that receiving the Holy spirit is connected with speaking in tongues:"

I think you did not read all of Acts . that being said how many events do you need to establish a normative in scripture? and your dates are not correct about the teaching of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. the doctrine of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit was taught by 1. Jesus in the Gospels 2. shown in the starting of the early church in the book of Acts, and instruction given on them in 1cor 12, 13, 14. and in many other scriptural ref too.

This statement too is a strawman
……………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………..

What you mean with strawman?
I found in the book of acts only these 3 events ( acts 2,2-11; acts 10,44-46; 19,3-7) where the receiving of the Holy spirit is mentioned along with speaking in tongues. If you found more, please show me! And the mentioning had a special purpose which we can find in the context itself.
To 1. Where in the gospel Jesus taught about the doctrine of the gifts of the Holy Spirit?
To 2. The coming of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost has nothing to do with the doctrine of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. It is right, that 1. Cor. taught about the gifts of the Holy Spirit, but this has nothing to do with receiving the Holy Spirit. And that what the Pentecostal/Charismatic doctrine teaches how to become the Holy Spirit ore to be filled with the Holy spirit to be empowerd is not biblical.
The believers in Corinth are the best model to show that getting the gifts is not a question of how holy somebody lives. (I mentioned the Verses before: 1. Cor. Chapter 1-14 and 2. Cor.12 the last verses.)
……………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….
" If it is true, that this would be the measure (speaking in tongues) to receive the Holy Spirit, then the most believers, including me, don’t have the Holy Spirit.".

If you are going to say things like this then at least ensure that is what is being said. Because I am not saying that.
…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….
Yes, you have not say this, it is a logical conclusion! But with most believers I am maybe wrong. If we count 600-800 Millions of Pentecost and Charismatics and the most of the official called Christians are only nominal Christians, then I am wrong in this.
…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………..

hear is what I think the bible teaches on the topic; you can agree or if you do not agree Great

Your salvation and mind has nothing to do with tongues ok, Now In the Gospel of John 20:22 Jesus said this "And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:"
Jesus had already risen from the dead and I believe after Jesus said this to them they were saved. NOW this was said BEfore Pentecost
after Jesus did this
Luke 24:49 sayes : " And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.".
These saved People were told by Jesus to wait. They had the Holy Spirit because they Knew Jesus as Lord and we all know no one can know Jesus as Lord unless the Holy Spirit is in them.
……………………………………………………………………………………………………………

Well, then some points I want give you for thinking about concerning this.

1. John 20,22 speaks about that Jesus blows the disciples on for receiving the Holy Ghost. I would understand it in this way that Jesus gave to his disciples a special authority which is never repeated after that. The authority to forgive sin Vers 23.
2. Notice that Thomas was not among them, when they was blowed on from Jesus.
3. What is the condition to be saved? Only faith!
4. People believed without having the Holy Spirit in them: f.e. Martha (John 11,24-27); the blindborn man (John,9,36-38); are t, hey saved? Yes, because of their faith. Did they got the Holy Spirit? No, because he was not yet given to them before Pentecost.
5. Thomas met Jesus eight days after he shows himself to the disciples. And he confessed: My Lord and my God, without having the Holy Spirit.(John 20,26-28).
6. Jesus reply in vers 29 is interesting: “Blessed are those who believe without seeing.” For me it seems for believers it is important to feel Jesus, to have special experiences, more then to believe him. They want have Jesus us friend. What Jesus said in John 15,14?.” You are my friends when you do what I command to you.” For me it seem that many like to read only the first part of this vers.

………………………………………………………………………………………………………….

So Then Acts 1:8 instruction by Jesus and manifested in Acts chapter 2; this was another work of the Holy Spirit in the Believer; "again a work in the Believer" = a person already saved. So how a pentecostal could say that you are not saved if Jesus is your Lord is not biblical.
…………………………………………………………………………………………………….
Because, Pentecostal teaches (this was special in the beginning ) that as sign of receiving the Holy Spirit it talking in tongues. And born again without the holy spirit is not possible. And if somebody is not born again he is not saved. I know today not all teaching this.
Yes, I agree the 120 had been believers and if they would be killed before the day of Pentecost, they would be in heaven, because of their faith.(According the OT condition) But to say that they all had the Holy Spirit before the Holy Spirit came on the day of Pentecost is speculation and nowhere written in the word of god.

The event on Pentecost was a special sign, as well in Cornelius house ore with the disciples of John the Baptist. That Jesus has sent his paraklet. Which we can´t bring into a doctrine which stated that Christians need a special baptizing with the Holy Spirit. This is not exegetic from the text, but eisegeses for to try to proof a certain doctrine.
…………………………………………………………………………………………………………
You stated that some pentecostals say this is second event I would not use that word but something happen to the 120 After Jesus breathed on them in John 20:22 .
I would like to hear what you think. and You really have to look at the Spirit of God in the Old testament too. I would like to talk about that.
……………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………
How you came to the meaning that the 120 were together in John 20,22?
Many Pentecostals and Charismatics using this termination. Without having the baptizing with the Holy Spirit you lack something.
Yes of course something happened to them, they became the Holy Spirit living in them, what was not before! And if you notice please the reaction from the Apostels after getting the Holy Spirit. They don’t hide anymore, they became bold and brave to spread the gospel. This was not before the day of Pentecost.
In the OT we see that Gods spirit was temporary on special people for special purpose. But since Pentecost the Holy Spirit is constant living in every person who is born again.
So far, hope you can follow my writings!

 

[wolfwint]

well, sorry the post 259 is not giving my whole post. What i wrote is not to see in this post. Dont know why!