Torah Study

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Tintin said:
But why then, would God allow the eating of meat, following the Great Flood? There's no mention of Him allowing it prior to the Flood.
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I don't know :) maybe because initially meat wasn't meant for eating but after the fall they started to eat meat. But also God actually told them there was only one place they couldnt eat from. After the flood I guess God has to, in a way, "allow" then too eat meat? I don't know but like I said this was the conclusion I came too after study.
 
BarlyGurl said:
Do you think it is possible that God killed the animals for skin coats to demonstrate to A&E the idea of offering sacrifices... and that this might have included eating a portion of the meat after it was offered to the lord?
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I guess this could be a possibility also but there is no mention of that so that would only be speculation.
 
I don't think there is a clear answer to this question really. I just know we now have steaks and ribs and kelbasi and venison and buffalo wings...Ok hungry now :)
 
I think that we've chased this rabbit long enough. Can we move on to the next verses?
 
ok i kind of saw the discussion about what pre flood people ate building since a few chapters ago...i figured instead of trying to have two competing discussions at the same time it would be best to just let the food discussion play itself out before moving on to another passage...

anyway i think genesis 6 is still wide open for discussion...although like i said it isn't really the intent of this thread to entertain major debates on flood geology or the identity of the nephilim...so it would be most courteous if you have an opinion on these issues to just state it clearly once and move on...

RachelBibleStudent said:
Genesis 6

Now it came about, when men began to multiply on the face of the land, and daughters were born to them, [SUP]2 [/SUP]that the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were [SUP][a][/SUP]beautiful; and they took wives for themselves, whomever they chose. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Then the Lord said, “My Spirit shall not [SUP][/SUP]strive with man forever, [SUP][c][/SUP]because he also is flesh; [SUP][d][/SUP]nevertheless his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.” [SUP]4 [/SUP]The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown.

[SUP]5 [/SUP]Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. [SUP]6 [/SUP]The Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved [SUP][e][/SUP]in His heart. [SUP]7 [/SUP]The Lord said, “I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the [SUP][f][/SUP]sky; for I am sorry that I have made them.” [SUP]8 [/SUP]But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord.

[SUP]9 [/SUP]These are the records of the generations of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, [SUP][g][/SUP]blameless in his [SUP][h][/SUP]time; Noah walked with God. [SUP]10 [/SUP]Noah [SUP][/SUP]became the father of three sons: Shem, Ham, and Japheth.

[SUP]11 [/SUP]Now the earth was corrupt in the sight of God, and the earth was filled with violence. [SUP]12 [/SUP]God looked on the earth, and behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted their way upon the earth.

[SUP]13 [/SUP]Then God said to Noah, “The end of all flesh has come before Me; for the earth is filled with violence because of them; and behold, I am about to destroy them with the earth. [SUP]14 [/SUP]Make for yourself an ark of gopher wood; you shall make the ark with rooms, and shall [SUP][j][/SUP]cover it inside and out with pitch. [SUP]15 [/SUP]This is how you shall make it: the length of the ark three hundred [SUP][k][/SUP]cubits, its breadth fifty [SUP][l][/SUP]cubits, and its height thirty [SUP][m][/SUP]cubits. [SUP]16 [/SUP]You shall make a [SUP][n][/SUP]window for the ark, and finish it to a cubit from [SUP][o][/SUP]the top; and set the door of the ark in the side of it; you shall make it with lower, second, and third decks. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Behold, I, even I am bringing the flood of water upon the earth, to destroy all flesh in which is the breath of life, from under heaven; everything that is on the earth shall perish. [SUP]18 [/SUP]But I will establish My covenant with you; and you shall enter the ark—you and your sons and your wife, and your sons’ wives with you. [SUP]19 [/SUP]And of every living thing of all flesh, you shall bring two of every kind into the ark, to keep them alive with you; they shall be male and female. [SUP]20 [/SUP]Of the birds after their kind, and of the animals after their kind, of every creeping thing of the ground after its kind, two of every kind will come to you to keep them alive. [SUP]21 [/SUP]As for you, take for yourself some of all food which is edible, and gather it to yourself; and it shall be for food for you and for them.” [SUP]22 [/SUP]Thus Noah did; according to all that God had commanded him, so he did.



Footnotes:

a. Genesis 6:2 Lit good
b. Genesis 6:3 Or rule in; some ancient versions read abide in
c. Genesis 6:3 Or in his going astray he is flesh
d. Genesis 6:3 Or therefore
e. Genesis 6:6 Lit to
f. Genesis 6:7 Lit heavens
g. Genesis 6:9 Lit complete, perfect; or having integrity
h. Genesis 6:9 Lit generations
i. Genesis 6:10 Lit begot
j. Genesis 6:14 Or pitch
k. Genesis 6:15 I.e. One cubit equals approx 18 in.
l. Genesis 6:15 I.e. One cubit equals approx 18 in.
m. Genesis 6:15 I.e. One cubit equals approx 18 in.
n. Genesis 6:16 Or roof
o. Genesis 6:16 Lit above
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i hadn't shared my thoughts on genesis 6:13-22 yet so here they are...

verse thirteen has God going to noah and explaining to him what he is about to do and why...and gives him the instructions on building the ark...

the instructions are very specific but many details are left out...i wonder if God gave noah much more detailed instructions and the author has merely summarized them here...or did God give noah basic guidelines and leave the rest up to his ingenuity?

in his 'city of God' augustine made some interesting comments about the dimensions of the ark...relating them to the classical virtruvian principles of proportion...i will quote some of what augustine wrote here...

The very measurements of the ark's length, height and breadth symbolize the human body, in the reality of which it was prophesied that Christ would come to mankind, as, in fact, he did come. For the length of the human body is from top to toe is six times its breadth from one side to the other and ten times its thickness measured on a side from back to belly. Thus if you measure a man lying on his back or face down, his length from head to foot is six times his breadth from right to left or from left to right and ten times his elevation from the ground. This is why the ark was made three hundred cubits in length, fifty in breadth, and thirty in height. And as for the door that it received on its side, that surely is the wound that was made when the side of the crucified one was pierced by the spear. This is the way by which those who come to him enter, because from this opening flowed the sacraments with which believers are initiated. Moreover, the order that it should be made of squared beams contains an allusion to the foursquare stability of saints' lives, for in whatever direction you turn a squared object, it will stand firm. In similar fashion, everything else mentioned in the construction of this ark symbolizes some aspect of the church....
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it is also worth mentioning that shipbuilding engineers have concluded that the proportions of the ark were the best possible dimensions for a stable ship...it was not so wide that it would spin...not so tall that it would tip...and not so long that it would simply roll over...the proportions were optimal to address all of the concerns of stability in rough seas...and wave tank simulations have shown that the ark could have handled 200 foot waves... so we see God's great wisdom in the design of the ark...

the chapter concludes by saying that noah did everything God commanded him...hebrews 11 tells us that noah did all of this by faith in God's word about things he had not yet seen...it is important to remember that obedience can only come by this kind of faith...if noah had doubted God then he would not have gone to all of the trouble of building the ark and gathering the food for his family and the animals...

hebrews 11 also says that by doing all of this noah condemned the world... there is no way noah could have built the ark in secret...all the time it was being built it was a public call to repentance...but the world of noah's time disregarded it and nobody except for noah's family was saved... here we can see that lack of faith leads to condemnation...
 
I've never heard all of Saint Augustine's thoughts on the ark, but I think he's really reaching with his allegory. Yes, the ark foreshadows what Christ does for us. But Augustine sounds like the quintessential high English school teacher who pulls apart everything and tries to find hidden symbolism, only to suck the very life and mystery out of whatever is being studied eg. the curtains are blue because XYZ. No, the curtains are blue because it's a nice colour. That's it. ;)

Rachel, I think you're right, in saying that Noah couldn't have built the ark in secret. The boat was too large, he likely had a workforce outside his family and even the coming in of resources would've raised eyebrows and got people questioning Noah. Was he given more instructions than the Bible mentions, who knows. Perhaps, perhaps not. But I'm sure God had prepared him well in advance for this mission. I seriously doubt Noah was a man who had never built a boat before.

I'm sorry for helping to drag out the 'food' discussion. I'll endeavor to keep things moving a bit more in the future. :)
 
Tintin said:
I've never heard all of Saint Augustine's thoughts on the ark, but I think he's really reaching with his allegory. Yes, the ark foreshadows what Christ does for us. But Augustine sounds like the quintessential high English school teacher who pulls apart everything and tries to find hidden symbolism, only to suck the very life and mystery out of whatever is being studied eg. the curtains are blue because XYZ. No, the curtains are blue because it's a nice colour. That's it. ;)

Rachel, I think you're right, in saying that Noah couldn't have built the ark in secret. The boat was too large, he likely had a workforce outside his family and even the coming in of resources would've raised eyebrows and got people questioning Noah. Was he given more instructions than the Bible mentions, who knows. Perhaps, perhaps not. But I'm sure God had prepared him well in advance for this mission. I seriously doubt Noah was a man who had never built a boat before.

I'm sorry for helping to drag out the 'food' discussion. I'll endeavor to keep things moving a bit more in the future. :)
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well yes i agree that augustine was probably being pretty speculative and arbitrary in assigning symbolism to the ark...but i do think that these kinds of analogies can be edifying as long as we acknowledge their speculative nature and not insist on making them into doctrine...

people were interested in the food discussion...so i didn't see it as a problem...in fact i kind of figured it would have been kind of rude if i were to just keep going ahead while people still wanted to discuss something...but i am moving on now because there seemed to be some consensus that the discussion had played itself out...
 
Oh, I agree. Thanks, Rachel.

Could you help me out with something? Why is it that some Bible translations mention the ark having a 'roof' one-cubit all around and other translations mention a 'window' (as above)? Rooves and windows are very different things. Thanks.
 
Tintin said:
Rachel, I think you're right, in saying that Noah couldn't have built the ark in secret. The boat was too large, he likely had a workforce outside his family and even the coming in of resources would've raised eyebrows and got people questioning Noah. Was he given more instructions than the Bible mentions, who knows. Perhaps, perhaps not. But I'm sure God had prepared him well in advance for this mission. I seriously doubt Noah was a man who had never built a boat before.
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The Bible never mention additional help... in fact people were making fun of Noah for building the ark because they never experienced rain up to that stage. Remember Noah build for at least 100 years and with the help of God and his family he finished it just in time ;)
 
Tintin said:
Oh, I agree. Thanks, Rachel.

Could you help me out with something? Why is it that some Bible translations mention the ark having a 'roof' one-cubit all around and other translations mention a 'window' (as above)? Rooves and windows are very different things. Thanks.
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Had a look at the Hebrew and the only time the word tsohar was translated as window was in this passage. The rest of the time it was translated as noon, midday etc.

The original Hebrew translation make mention of this hole on top of the ark.
 
GandalfTheWhite said:
The Bible never mention additional help... in fact people were making fun of Noah for building the ark because they never experienced rain up to that stage. Remember Noah build for at least 100 years and with the help of God and his family he finished it just in time ;)
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The Bible doesn't mention additional help, but nor does it count it out. Also, God told Noah to build the ark a long time before the Flood, but Noah was around 500 years old when his three sons were born (Shem - the middle child, Japheth - the eldest, Ham - the youngest). They would have had wives by the time, so we can speculate that the men were at least 30 years old (given their massive life-spans). If this were the case, and Noah wasn't given a future prophecy, then Noah and his family had around 70 years to build the ark. Give or take a few.
 
GandalfTheWhite said:
Had a look at the Hebrew and the only time the word tsohar was translated as window was in this passage. The rest of the time it was translated as noon, midday etc.

The original Hebrew translation make mention of this hole on top of the ark.
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Thanks, brother. Yes, 'noon' or 'midday' wouldn't fit this part of the story.
 
Tintin said:
Oh, I agree. Thanks, Rachel.

Could you help me out with something? Why is it that some Bible translations mention the ark having a 'roof' one-cubit all around and other translations mention a 'window' (as above)? Rooves and windows are very different things. Thanks.
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the translators have been uncertain as to what this actually was...as you can see from what gandalfthewhite posted the meaning of the hebrew term is not clear...

educated guesses have ranged from the window or overhanging roof in most bible translations to some more exotic ideas such as a 'moon pool' or a sun lens or prism...
 
RachelBibleStudent said:
the translators have been uncertain as to what this actually was...as you can see from what gandalfthewhite posted the meaning of the hebrew term is not clear...

educated guesses have ranged from the window or overhanging roof in most bible translations to some more exotic ideas such as a 'moon pool' or a sun lens or prism...
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Ah, yes. Midrash speculations.
 
noah may or may not have gotten help...

he and his family probably had enough time to build it on their own...

and the people certainly didn't sympathize with noah's plans...

on the other hand they might have been willing to help with the work if noah paid them...never underestimate what worldly people will do for money...
 
RachelBibleStudent said:
the translators have been uncertain as to what this actually was...as you can see from what gandalfthewhite posted the meaning of the hebrew term is not clear...

educated guesses have ranged from the window or overhanging roof in most bible translations to some more exotic ideas such as a 'moon pool' or a sun lens or prism...
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I like the "exotic ideas" LOL. Let us build in a jacuzzi Noah :) Sorry I couldn't help myself :)
 
RachelBibleStudent said:
noah may or may not have gotten help...

he and his family probably had enough time to build it on their own...

and the people certainly didn't sympathize with noah's plans...

on the other hand they might have been willing to help with the work if noah paid them...never underestimate what worldly people will do for money...
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Depending on how strong his grand father and father were they could also have helped as they died just before the flood.
 
since the question of what the ark's 'window' actually was is an interesting one i think if i come here tomorrow i will post some more information on the different possibilities...
 
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