Total Depravity

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Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#61
Jul 3, 2015
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#61
posthuman said:
did they really think God couldn't see their sin if they had a fig leaf moomoo lol

why do we think this makes sense? it doesn't.

i suspect the tree was a fig tree :coffee:
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I wonder if they would use the leaves of the same tree that caused them fear and shame.

Though it is symbolic of unbelieving Israel. So that certainly fits allegorically.

And allegorically I believe they became aware of having lost God's covering. Nah, of course a leaf tunic would not
hide their transgression. But man is pathetic when it comes to thinking they can hide or escape from God, eh?
And perhaps they only covered themselves for their own sakes.

:coffee::coffee::coffee:
 
R

reneweddaybyday

Senior Member
#62
Mar 23, 2016
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#62
Magenta said:
And allegorically I believe they became aware of having lost God's covering.
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I believe this statement is true.


As far as Adam and Eve being afraid after the fall ... the fruit of the Spirit was no longer in evidence in their lives resulting in no perfect love to cast out fear.

Same with the shame they felt in their nakedness after the fall ... shame is a fleshly attribute.

just my ramblings on the matter ...
.
 
M

montana123

Banned
#63
Oct 9, 2021
881
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#63
Cameron143 said:
This isn't what total depravity is about. But we are born not having sinned, with a propensity toward sin, and under condemnation because Adam's sin has been credited to our account.
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Eze 18:19 Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

No person is guilty for the sins of another person for every person will bear their own sin.

We are not responsible for the sin of Adam and Eve for that is their sin and it is not accredited to our account.

Adam and Eve were born knowing God.

When they ate of the forbidden tree they then had a choice between good and evil so all their offspring was born with a choice so we are born not knowing God so will do wrong before we acknowledge the truth.

So all people have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

Mat 18:10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

We are born with no sin on our record until we sin later on which all people will do because we are born not knowing God.
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#64
Jul 31, 2013
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#64
Magenta said:
I wonder if they would use the leaves of the same tree that caused them fear and shame.

Though it is symbolic of unbelieving Israel. So that certainly fits allegorically.

And allegorically I believe they became aware of having lost God's covering. Nah, of course a leaf tunic would not
hide their transgression. But man is pathetic when it comes to thinking they can hide or escape from God, eh?
And perhaps they only covered themselves for their own sakes.

:coffee::coffee::coffee:
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imagine what the tree looked like after they had stripped enough leaves from it to make two tunics - naked, right?

and how long that took to do - occupying them, keeping them from doing something else, that God set angels to keep them from doing later
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

Well-known member
#65
Mar 1, 2022
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#65
montana123 said:
Eze 18:19 Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

No person is guilty for the sins of another person for every person will bear their own sin.

We are not responsible for the sin of Adam and Eve for that is their sin and it is not accredited to our account.

Adam and Eve were born knowing God.

When they ate of the forbidden tree they then had a choice between good and evil so all their offspring was born with a choice so we are born not knowing God so will do wrong before we acknowledge the truth.

So all people have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

Mat 18:10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

We are born with no sin on our record until we sin later on which all people will do because we are born not knowing God.
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Not sure you understand the impact of Adam's sin. We come into the world under condemnation...as children of wrath. We are under sin because Adam was representing the whole human race. When he sinned, he took us all down:

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by in; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned...Romans 5:12.

The good news is that a second Adam came who didn't sin.
 
Mem

Mem

Senior Member
#66
Sep 23, 2014
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#66
reneweddaybyday said:
I believe this statement is true.


As far as Adam and Eve being afraid after the fall ... the fruit of the Spirit was no longer in evidence in their lives resulting in no perfect love to cast out fear.

Same with the shame they felt in their nakedness after the fall ... shame is a fleshly attribute.

just my ramblings on the matter ...
.
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If I may add my own rambling thought on the matter. It only just occurred to me that it doesn't seem that they had feared anything when they took of the fruit and ate. So, perhaps they were certain of God's perfect love and, only after having ate it, doubt entered....
:unsure:
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#67
Jul 3, 2015
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#67
Mem said:
If I may add my own rambling thought on the matter. It only just occurred to me that it doesn't seem that they had feared anything when they took of the fruit and ate. So, perhaps they were certain of God's perfect love and, only after having ate it, doubt entered....
:unsure:
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Perhaps they feared death... but then, they could have eaten from the Tree of Life. Still,
Eve was deceived and believed the serpent, that she would never die and gain knowledge:
your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil. It seems to me
they already knew good in knowing God, and now the evil they knew was within themselves.
 
R

reneweddaybyday

Senior Member
#68
Mar 23, 2016
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#68
Cameron143 said:
We are under sin because Adam was representing the whole human race.
When he sinned, he took us all down:

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by in; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned...Romans 5:12.
Click to expand...
I understand it a little differently ... we are under sin because we are born after the image and likeness of our parents.

Adam was created in the likeness of God (Gen 5:1) ... descendants of Adam are born after the image and likeness of their parents (Gen 5:3).

As far as Romans 5:12, the verse states that sin entered into the world through Adam and it is death that passed upon all men ... because all sin.

possibly a little nit-picky on my part ... but that's the way I understand it.
.
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#69
Jul 18, 2017
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#69
Mem said:
It only just occurred to me that it doesn't seem that they had feared anything when they took of the fruit and ate.
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How could Adam and Eve not fear anything when God had plainly told them that the day they disobeyed Him commandment, they would "die"? Whether or not they understood the meaning of "die", there is no question that it would have been a serious negative result.
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#70
Jul 31, 2013
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#70
Magenta said:
Perhaps they feared death... but then, they could have eaten from the Tree of Life. Still,
Eve was deceived and believed the serpent, that she would never die and gain knowledge:
your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil. It seems to me
they already knew good in knowing God, and now the evil they knew was within themselves.
Click to expand...
Adam, not being deceived, seems not to have feared death, at least before it was in him?
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#71
Jul 3, 2015
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#71
posthuman said:
Adam, not being deceived, seems not to have feared death, at least before it was in him?
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We don't even know what their understanding of death was since it did not yet exist...
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#72
Jul 31, 2013
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#72
Magenta said:
Perhaps they feared death... but then, they could have eaten from the Tree of Life. Still,
Eve was deceived and believed the serpent, that she would never die and gain knowledge:
your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil. It seems to me
they already knew good in knowing God, and now the evil they knew was within themselves.
Click to expand...
it's pretty amazing they did not eat of the Tree of Life. isn't that what you or i would try doing the moment we realized we had eaten poison?

did Adam know better? God knew they must not, until the Redeemer would come, and make the way for us. He doesn't guard the Way out of spite or condemnation, but for their good.
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#73
Jul 31, 2013
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#73
Magenta said:
We don't even know what their understanding of death was since it did not yet exist...
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yes, but we know they understood it to exist, because God had warned them about it as a consequence. but i believe for sure they had never seen it - it entered the world through Adam, through his sin.
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#74
Jul 31, 2013
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#74
posthuman said:
Adam, not being deceived, seems not to have feared death, at least before it was in him?
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at least for a moment, something was more important to him than fear of death, so he sinned.

not that fear of death is the only motivation, of course - but in the moment when he took the fruit and ate it, knowing the consequences, he certainly wasn't afraid to die.

maybe he was more afraid of losing his wife
 
Mem

Mem

Senior Member
#75
Sep 23, 2014
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#75
Magenta said:
Perhaps they feared death... but then, they could have eaten from the Tree of Life. Still,
Eve was deceived and believed the serpent, that she would never die and gain knowledge:
your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil. It seems to me
they already knew good in knowing God, and now the evil they knew was within themselves.
Click to expand...
This must've been the look on their face...

Nehemiah6 said:
How could Adam and Eve not fear anything when God had plainly told them that the day they disobeyed Him commandment, they would "die"? Whether or not they understood the meaning of "die", there is no question that it would have been a serious negative result.
Click to expand...
I not sure that they believed that God would kill them and may not have even been able to fathom how any harm would come otherwise. So, did Eve 'hear,' 'God will not kill you' when the serpent said, "you will not surely die." However, Adam wasn't deceived so he might've known that, although the harm wouldn't come from God, harm would come, somehow... :unsure:
 
R

reneweddaybyday

Senior Member
#76
Mar 23, 2016
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#76
Mem said:
It only just occurred to me that it doesn't seem that they had feared anything when they took of the fruit and ate. So, perhaps they were certain of God's perfect love and, only after having ate it, doubt entered....
Click to expand...
As @Magenta mentioned, Eve was deceived by satan.

When Adam ate, he knowingly disobeyed God ... and in so doing, Adam joined his wife in her fallen state.

Genesis 3:10 says Adam was afraid because he was naked ... so sad ... hiding from God. There is no hiding anything from Him. we try in our ignorance of His total magnificence, but the best thing the born again believer can do in our stumbling is to run to the Father as soon as we realize we've turned from Him ...
.
 
Mem

Mem

Senior Member
#77
Sep 23, 2014
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#77
reneweddaybyday said:
As @Magenta mentioned, Eve was deceived by satan.

When Adam ate, he knowingly disobeyed God ... and in so doing, Adam joined his wife in her fallen state.

Genesis 3:10 says Adam was afraid because he was naked ... so sad ... hiding from God. There is no hiding anything from Him. we try in our ignorance of His total magnificence, but the best thing the born again believer can do in our stumbling is to run to the Father as soon as we realize we've turned from Him ...
.
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That it took Jesus' death to realize that we are welcomed in returning to God, and not without the giving of the Holy Spirit to confirm it in our heart of hearts, illustrates how far we were 'lost' of it. Not even Israel's example really taught them, or us, that. God extended His care toward them, continually, and they were (and still are?) yet clueless of it.
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

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#78
Jul 18, 2017
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#78
Mem said:
I not sure that they believed that God would kill them and may not have even been able to fathom how any harm would come otherwise.
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It does not matter how they interpreted "die". It was a dire warning for disobedience, and they surely understood what it means to either obey or disobey God. Chances are God gave them insight into His warning also. And Eve was fully aware of everything God had said. You can see that for yourself.
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#79
Jul 3, 2015
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#79
Nehemiah6 said:
Eve was fully aware of everything God had said. You can see that for yourself.
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Eve said, "But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it,
neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die." We have no idea from the text whether God actually said this or not.
 
Mem

Mem

Senior Member
#80
Sep 23, 2014
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#80
Nehemiah6 said:
It does not matter how they interpreted "die". It was a dire warning for disobedience, and they surely understood what it means to either obey or disobey God. Chances are God gave them insight into His warning also. And Eve was fully aware of everything God had said. You can see that for yourself.
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Eve was deceived. That is, she did not rightly perceive the serpent's lie. What made her think that the serpent was telling her the truth?
 
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