Total Depravity

[posthuman]

I was under the impression that the Law came after Cain and Abel. Has someone been messing with the page order in my Bible?

it's the same God - my point in bringing up Leviticus is that He was very specific to Israel about the details of sacrifices and offerings. why would i think He was not specific about details of what was acceptable for Cain and Abel to offer?

for example where do you have the idea that it is not OK for Cain to offer fruit that isn't the first of his harvest?
you got that from Leviticus.

 

[posthuman]

NEven under the Law there were offerings made that were plants and presented without blood spilled.

on altars that were cleansed with blood.

everywhere in scripture, the blood is a central theme. why would Genesis 4 be different?

 

[SonJudgment]

In regards to Cain, this is an interesting example for the subject. Cain was not born sinful, nor with a propensity to sin. Even when Cain offers his sacrifice this is not a sin, it's just merely that God did not favor his sacrifice whereas God favored Abel's sacrifice. We then see here Cain begins to hate his brother pretty much just because his brother is good and found favor in God's eyes. God even notices Cain's change in countenance and reminds him that if he does good then he will be accepted, but if he sins then sin will reign over him. Cain then rather than heed God's Word decides to murder his innocent brother Abel and this is the moment that Cain sins. We see very clearly both Cain and Abel were born good, they were both born without any propensity to sin, but Cain gave into the worldly things; his emotions, his envy of his brother finding favor with God, and so this led Cain to commit sin whereas Abel did not sin and is clearly innocent.

 

[posthuman]

Even when Cain offers his sacrifice this is not a sin, it's just merely that God did not favor his sacrifice whereas God favored Abel's sacrifice.

God tells Cain that if he did what is right, he would be accepted. therefore Cain did what was wrong. God did not give Cain further instructions on what is right, therefore Cain already knew what was right, and did wrong anyway. therefore Cain sinned with his offering.

therefore God showed Cain mercy, rebuking him and giving him space and time to repent. but Cain despised God's mercy and instead murdered his brother. therefore Cain's offering also includes elements of despising God's mercy.

rejecting the free gift of a lamb from his kinsman shepherd and purposefully offering an unacceptable gift in its place fits the text.
being utterly ignorant of what he should have done and offering something random at hand that gets randomly rejected by God for no reason does not fit the text.

 

[posthuman]

why is murdering his brother the shepherd, the response of Cain to God warning him to do what is right?

because doing what is right involved his brother being necessarily alive.

to do what is right, Cain needed the shepherd. and now we arrive at the thread topic.

 

[Evmur]

The first option is the correct option. We are born sinless. It seems the ancient Israelites also began to adopt this strange doctrine and so God sent Ezekiel to correct them. The whole chapter of Ezekiel 18 lays out all scenarios for the nature of man and how he is only guilty of his own sins. The entire chapter is pretty thorough in foolproofing all scenarios of whether a man be good or evil and his son be good or evil.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ezekiel+18&version=KJV

but he is guilty of his own sins ... and everybody sins.

 

[PaulThomson]

on altars that were cleansed with blood.

everywhere in scripture, the blood is a central theme. why would Genesis 4 be different?

You are reading your understanding of the Mosaic Law, which came 430 years after Abraham, into the minds of Cain and Abel.

There is nothing in Genesis that says Abel considered he was offering blood to God, and God was pleased with the blood. There is nothing in Abraham's life that indicates he thought he was offering blood to God. What these men offered to God had the blood removed, because God did not want the blood offered to Him, as the other gods of other nations required. He wanted the sheep offered without the blood.

 

[posthuman]

There is nothing in Genesis that says Abel considered he was offering blood to God, and God was pleased with the blood.

Genesis 4 happens to come immediately after Genesis 3.

Genesis 3:21​

for Adam and his wife the LORD God made tunics of skin, and clothed them.​

 

[posthuman]

You are reading your understanding of the Mosaic Law, which came 430 years after Abraham, into the minds of Cain and Abel.

There is nothing in Genesis that says Abel considered he was offering blood to God, and God was pleased with the blood. There is nothing in Abraham's life that indicates he thought he was offering blood to God. What these men offered to God had the blood removed, because God did not want the blood offered to Him, as the other gods of other nations required. He wanted the sheep offered without the blood.

you missed the part, shedding of blood.

the shedding of the blood of an innocent nephesh chayya.

this is what saves us, this is how we are covered, this is the only way we can present ourselves before God and be accepted, this is The Way, from the beginning, the spirit of prophecy.


perhaps you do not understand my first principle of rightly interpreting the Torah.
so, let me ask you this, does Genesis 4 testify of Christ?

 

[posthuman]

i will mention again, in Genesis 4 a principle of firstfruits is present. yes.

i argued it's prevalence with my pastor, and lost.

the shedding of the blood of The Lamb is the core and focus of all of scripture: all scripture testifies of the person and work of Christ. that is the very purpose of it. that is even how you can tell if it is scripture or not.

it gives me joy to continue to explain to you what was lacking with my understanding, and add to yours.

 

[SonJudgment]

God tells Cain that if he did what is right, he would be accepted. therefore Cain did what was wrong. God did not give Cain further instructions on what is right, therefore Cain already knew what was right, and did wrong anyway. therefore Cain sinned with his offering.

therefore God showed Cain mercy, rebuking him and giving him space and time to repent. but Cain despised God's mercy and instead murdered his brother. therefore Cain's offering also includes elements of despising God's mercy.

rejecting the free gift of a lamb from his kinsman shepherd and purposefully offering an unacceptable gift in its place fits the text.
being utterly ignorant of what he should have done and offering something random at hand that gets randomly rejected by God for no reason does not fit the text.

Well God says this because he sees that Cain is wroth and his countenance is fallen. God is just telling Cain that if he does well then he will surely be accepted, and if he does not well then he will sin and sin will be his master. Cain's sacrifice isn't his sin, Cain murdering his brother just because his brother found favor in God's eyes is Cain's sin.

Genesis 4:3-8


3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord.
4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the Lord had respect unto Abel and to his offering:
5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
6 And the Lord said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.

but he is guilty of his own sins ... and everybody sins.

Indeed, we are not guilty of our parents sins, nor are guilty of Adam's sin, nor do we have a propensity to sin. We are born good and sinless, but we sin because of falling short and siding with the world and thus we are guilty for our own sins.

 

[PaulThomson]

you missed the part, shedding of blood.

the shedding of the blood of an innocent nephesh chayya.

this is what saves us, this is how we are covered, this is the only way we can present ourselves before God and be accepted, this is The Way, from the beginning, the spirit of prophecy.


perhaps you do not understand my first principle of rightly interpreting the Torah.
so, let me ask you this, does Genesis 4 testify of Christ?

The shedding of the offering's blood is not mentioned in Abel's offering of a first-born. therefore it is probably only incidental to the message God was conveying in the story. God would not want a live sheep burned for Him as an offering. That would be cruel. There may be edifying similarities to the sacrifice of Christ, but those are unlikely to be the main intended teaching points of the passage.as it was given to the Hebrews. to base their behaviour upon.

Why God accepted Abel's sacrifice and did not accept Cain's is open to conjecture. The passage itself does not tell us. Nor does any other passage of the Bible. Hebrews said that Abel's sacrifice was mixed with faith and was a better sacrifice than Cain's; so we could infer that it was a lack of faith toward God in Cain's heart that corrupted his offering, rather than some inherent quality of the crop offered.

 

[TMS]

Have you read the context of that verse before? Who was the prophet addressing? What kind of behaviour that that group considered "righteousness" was God calling dirty rags? Does a judgment made of one nation at one time in history mean that that judgment applies to all nations of all times?

The closer you get to God the more unrighteous you see yourself.

If you compare yourself to the Glorious righteousness of Jesus I hope you see that there is no comparison..

Daniel wasn't able to stand ...Dan 10:8, 17.. Therefore I was left alone, and saw this great vision, and there remained no strength in me: for my comeliness was turned in me into corruption, and I retained no strength.
Exo 3:6 And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.
Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

We can't stand before God and live.
Without intervention from God we would die.

Act 9:6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?

Our righteousness is as filthy rages.

Don't think your rich and in need of nothing .. we need to realize our weakness, so we put faith in God's strength.

Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

 

[TMS]

These texts do not say that the unrenewed spirit cannot do any good. A child is weak, but she can give a flower to a sick person out of compassion. Weak flesh does not imply the person's spirit cannot master the flesh, otherwise why would Jesus tell His apostles to pray so that they not fall into the temptation coming their way..

You are reading far more into the text than it actually says.

We can't do anything good
All good comes from God.

God is Love.
Anyone can do good deeds.
Even the devil can appear good for false reasons.

It is the motive that counts.
Without the Spirit we can not master the flesh.

The Spirit of goodness is from God. The Spirit of Love comes from God. So without the Spirit we would be selfish.

But with God we can do all things.

We can only overcome because of God.

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

 

[PaulThomson]

PaulThomson said:
Have you read the context of that verse before? Who was the prophet addressing? What kind of behaviour that that group considered "righteousness" was God calling dirty rags? Does a judgment made of one nation at one time in history mean that that judgment applies to all nations of all times?

it's the same God - my point in bringing up Leviticus is that He was very specific to Israel about the details of sacrifices and offerings. why would i think He was not specific about details of what was acceptable for Cain and Abel to offer?

for example where do you have the idea that it is not OK for Cain to offer fruit that isn't the first of his harvest?
you got that from Leviticus.

That's a good challenge to my post.

Gen. 4 2 And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.

3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord.

4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the Lord had respect unto Abel and to his offering:

5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.

The closer you get to God the more unrighteous you see yourself.

If you compare yourself to the Glorious righteousness of Jesus I hope you see that there is no comparison..

Daniel wasn't able to stand ...Dan 10:8, 17.. Therefore I was left alone, and saw this great vision, and there remained no strength in me: for my comeliness was turned in me into corruption, and I retained no strength.
Exo 3:6 And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.
Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

We can't stand before God and live.
Without intervention from God we would die.

Act 9:6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?

Our righteousness is as filthy rages.

Don't think your rich and in need of nothing .. we need to realize our weakness, so we put faith in God's strength.

Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

I see. You haven't taken any time or care in noting and applying the context of your cited verse to the cited verse.

 

[PaulThomson]

We can't do anything good
All good comes from God.

God is Love.
Anyone can do good deeds.
Even the devil can appear good for false reasons.

It is the motive that counts.
Without the Spirit we can not master the flesh.

The Spirit of goodness is from God. The Spirit of Love comes from God. So without the Spirit we would be selfish.

But with God we can do all things.

We can only overcome because of God.

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

But you don't have any verse that says no one other than Christ can do any good. You are just making the claim and assuming that your making the claim proves no unregenerate person can do any good. Where's the scripture that says what you are asserting

 

[Evmur]

Well God says this because he sees that Cain is wroth and his countenance is fallen. God is just telling Cain that if he does well then he will surely be accepted, and if he does not well then he will sin and sin will be his master. Cain's sacrifice isn't his sin, Cain murdering his brother just because his brother found favor in God's eyes is Cain's sin.

Genesis 4:3-8


3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord.
4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the Lord had respect unto Abel and to his offering:
5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
6 And the Lord said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.




Indeed, we are not guilty of our parents sins, nor are guilty of Adam's sin, nor do we have a propensity to sin. We are born good and sinless, but we sin because of falling short and siding with the world and thus we are guilty for our own sins.

this is not correct, Cain's problem was the sacrifice. The blood sacrifice [the cross] is the only power that will withstand the power of Satan and sin.

 

[SonJudgment]

this is not correct, Cain's problem was the sacrifice. The blood sacrifice [the cross] is the only power that will withstand the power of Satan and sin.

No, it's just a matter of his sacrifice was not favored and Abel's was. This does however start Cain down the process towards sin though. When Cain sees that his sacrifice is not favored and that Abel's sacrifice is favored he then becomes wroth and his countenance falls. Even this however is not a sin, but it is at this point that God even intervenes to tell Cain that if he does well then he will be accepted, but if he does not then he will sin. At this point Cain could have simply just accepted the Word of God and considered to himself to just strive to do better and found acceptance with God, and if he had done so he would not have sinned. We can see clearly in the episode, as it is very simple and very brief that Cain rejects the Word of God and gives into his earthly emotions of jealousy over his brother and his jealousy fuels his meaningless wrath and so this brings forth his sin which is murdering his brother. Keeping to the topic we see that both Cain and Abel have the same parents, even directly Adam and Eve, and neither one was born guilty of Adam and Eve's sins, neither one was born with a propensity to sin, but they were born sinless albeit into a world that is still corrupted by the original sins. Abel values God over the world. Cain gives into the world and thus Cain becomes a sinner.

 

[PaulThomson]

this is not correct, Cain's problem was the sacrifice. The blood sacrifice [the cross] is the only power that will withstand the power of Satan and sin.

I think you understand Hebrew, Evmur. The waw sequential pattern of Gen. 4 1-4 indicates to me that Abel' ssacrifice had happened some time before Cain's, not simultaneously with Cain's, Cain had perhaps somehow recognised that Abel's earlier sacrifice had been pleasing to God and God had blessed Abel. as a result.

Cain perhaps belayedly and begrudgingly copied Abel, not out of gratitude towards God for what God had already provided, but transactionally, hoping he might be able to buy God's blessing. This thankless and faithless attitude is perhaps what displeased God regarding Cain's offering.

I would see this as an example of patriarchal tithing or thank offering, rather than some conscious effort at offering propitiation for sins committed., because according to scripture until the Law came, God was not imputing men's sins to them, so there was no need for propitiatory sacrifices.AS generations passed, men began to antropomorphise God and the gods, imagining them in their own image and ascribed blood lust and vengefulness to him, and imagined that propitiation was necessary

 

[posthuman]

There may be edifying similarities to the sacrifice of Christ, but those are unlikely to be the main intended teaching points of the passage.

the testimony of the person and the work of Christ is always the main intent of all scripture.
the salvation that has been revealed is about what - Who - we believe, not about we do.

John 5:39​

Search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me.​

​

Revelation 19:10​

Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.​

​

1 Peter 1:10-12​

Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace [that would come] to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. To them it was revealed that, not to themselves, but to us they were ministering the things which now have been reported to you through those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things which angels desire to look into.​

​

Revelation 22:13​

I AM the Alpha and the Omega, [the] Beginning and [the] End, the First and the Last.​

​

Luke 24:25-27​

"O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! Ought not the Christ to have suffered these things and to enter into His glory?" And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself.​

​

John 1:14​

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us​