Total Depravity

[PennEd]

Didn't we have this conversation 2 years ago.

If faith is the condition that God sets why would He do so, if we cannot be persuaded of the TRUTH of the Gospel and have the moral capacity to do so.

God doesn't save us because faith somehow earns it. And faith itself doesn't save us. God saves us, as a gift, because we met His gracious condition, faith.

John Calvin stated "faith is the out stretched hand" I do agree he captured it perfectly.

Yes. I remember. You believe your intellect and ability to understand the Scriptures and be “persuaded” is what saves you.

No condescension intended, but that’s really sad.

 

[HeIsHere]

Yes. I remember. You believe your intellect and ability to understand the Scriptures and be “persuaded” is what saves you.

No condescension intended, but that’s really sad.

I explicitly stated the otherwise.

It is "through faith" those are God's words not mine.

 

[HeIsHere]

Yes. I remember. You believe your intellect and ability to understand the Scriptures and be “persuaded” is what saves you.

No condescension intended, but that’s really sad.

As well the Gospel is simple enough for a child to understand.
Jesus tell us this.

 

[HeIsHere]

In the context of the grammar of the text, faith cannot be what the gift is. The Greek word for "this" is touto, which is grammatically neuter. So faith cannot be the referent of touto. Salvation is feminine

Yes it does come down to the structure of this verse that like I have mentioned even John Calvin who studied Greek had to admit faith was not the gift in this verse but that the gift is salvation.

“τοῦτο” [that] is a neuter demonstrative pronoun.

But “πίστεως” [faith] is feminine. This is vital because when Greek demonstratives modify nouns, they will agree with the noun in gender, …number and case. And so “τοῦτο” [that] is not in reference to the “πίστεως” [faith] plain and simple.

“πίστεως” [faith] may be the closest to “τοῦτο” [that] but that is not how you determine its reference in a Greek sentence. The endings of the words that are how you do that.

The gift cannot be “χάριτί” [grace] as that is feminine also. It is gracious for God to give a gift so that grace is the basis of the gift, but the grace itself is not the gift. A person may give you a gift out of their generosity, but they do not give you the gift of generosity.

And while “σῴζω” [saved] is a verb, “τοῦτο” applies to the whole thought Paul was expressing about salvation, with the noun being elliptical. So it would read, “For by grace through faith are ye saved, and that not of yourselves, it is a gift of God lest any man should boast.”
(from my notes).

 

[HeIsHere]

If faith is not a gift from God, then how did we get it?

... I will also say your question already has an assumption built into it as though faith is some exterior thing outside of people.

We have faith/belief in many ideas, people and things and sometimes we do not have faith/belief in them.

When we accept the gift of salvation through faith by the grace of God, our faith is then strengthened by God.

“Because you have little faith,” he said. “I assure you that if you have faith the size of a mustard seed, you could say to this mountain, ‘Go from here to there,’ and it will go. There will be nothing that you can’t do.”
Matthew 17:20

It does not state the gift of faith.

 

[PaulThomson]

Yes it does come down to the structure of this verse that like I have mentioned even John Calvin who studied Greek had to admit faith was not the gift in this verse but that the gift is salvation.

“τοῦτο” [that] is a neuter demonstrative pronoun.

But “πίστεως” [faith] is feminine. This is vital because when Greek demonstratives modify nouns, they will agree with the noun in gender, …number and case. And so “τοῦτο” [that] is not in reference to the “πίστεως” [faith] plain and simple.

“πίστεως” [faith] may be the closest to “τοῦτο” [that] but that is not how you determine its reference in a Greek sentence. The endings of the words that are how you do that.

The gift cannot be “χάριτί” [grace] as that is feminine also. It is gracious for God to give a gift so that grace is the basis of the gift, but the grace itself is not the gift. A person may give you a gift out of their generosity, but they do not give you the gift of generosity.

And while “σῴζω” [saved] is a verb, “τοῦτο” applies to the whole thought Paul was expressing about salvation, with the noun being elliptical. So it would read, “For by grace through faith are ye saved, and that not of yourselves, it is a gift of God lest any man should boast.”
(from my notes).

Yes the phrase "By grace we are saved through faith" would be referred to by the neuter pronoun touto. It is saying that the manner of salvation (that we are saved by grace through faith) is God's gift to us..

 

[PaulThomson]

If faith is not a gift from God, then how did we get it?

It is a gift from God. We were born with it. But He gave it to us. But it is not the gift referred to in the verse "For by grace you are saved through faith, and this not of yourself, it is the gift of God."

 

[kinda]

just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,

https://biblehub.com/ephesians/1-4.htm

 

[HeIsHere]

you may need to skip Romans 9

If you are referring to judicial hardening that does mean people are born judicially hardened.
Those judicially hardened or cut off are not born in this condition, but have “grown hardened” over years of rebellion (Acts 28:27), they are cut off for unbelief (11:20) and the hope of the apostle is that they may be grafted back in and saved (11:11-32).

 

[posthuman]

Romans Nine has been de- Calvinized by many writers, by many times over and with proper exegesis and written in the broader context of the letters. And very well done.

But once someone adopts a lens that is all they can see, I have the benefit have dropping that lens 10 years ago, in terms of spiritual growth best thing that ever happened.

many writers write many wrong things. that's your own argument; it is a logical fallacy.

one thing we do know is true is that God hardens whom He will, and has mercy on whom He will, and that it is vain to think to judge Him.

 

[PennEd]

It is a gift from God. We were born with it. But He gave it to us. But it is not the gift referred to in the verse "For by grace you are saved through faith, and this not of yourself, it is the gift of God."

That’s right the THIS is referring to the faith. He already told earlier in the verse the salvation is a gift, because Grace mean’s unmerited favor. That’s what gifts are. Unmerited favor.

Here’s the word for “by Grace”
5485. charis

a) grace, as a GIFT or blessing brought to man by Jesus Christ.

Grace, by definition, is a gift. So the gift mentioned is referring to the very previous object mentioned, which is FAITH.

So the Grace is what saves you. The Faith is the gift God gives you in order to appropriate the Salvation.

And of course it must be this way. And Paul tells us exactly why.

SO YOU WONT BOAST!

The real question is why people have such a an easy time giving themselves credit for their ability to be persuaded, and take credit away from God, and think they are superior to those that have heard the Gospel but don’t believe.

The more and more insidious I believe that thought process to be.

 

[posthuman]

If you are referring to judicial hardening that does mean people are born judicially hardened.
Those judicially hardened or cut off are not born in this condition, but have “grown hardened” over years of rebellion (Acts 28:27), they are cut off for unbelief (11:20) and the hope of the apostle is that they may be grafted back in and saved (11:11-32).

Romans 9:19-21​

You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed [it], "Why have you made me like this?" Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?​

​

​

it has always been profoundly interesting to me that God in His wisdom directly and clearly addresses this argument in scripture.

• Q: how can God judge mankind if He by His will causes some hearts to be hardened - even before they are born?
• A: who do you think you are to question Him? what a foolish thing it is to say, why has God made you or someone else the way He chose to make them!

 

[posthuman]

If you are referring to judicial hardening that does mean people are born judicially hardened.
Those judicially hardened or cut off are not born in this condition, but have “grown hardened” over years of rebellion (Acts 28:27), they are cut off for unbelief (11:20) and the hope of the apostle is that they may be grafted back in and saved (11:11-32).

this does not explain how that the example in Romans 9:10-13 is Jacob and Esau before they were even born.

 

[HeIsHere]

many writers write many wrong things. that's your own argument; it is a logical fallacy.

one thing we do know is true is that God hardens whom He will, and has mercy on whom He will, and that it is vain to think to judge Him.

Yeah you write many things lol, this is a discussion board not a debate club. And drawing from the knowledge of others is not always a logical fallacy.

An appeal to authority is not always a fallacy. Citing the informed opinion of an expert is legitimate in an argument when certain criteria is met: The authority is an expert in the specific subject area under discussion
link

So there is that.

Once again no one is born morally incapable of responding to the truth of the Gospel message.
This is not established in scripture.

And Romans 9:18 is to be understood within context of God dealing with unbelieving Israel.

• Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

Sometimes God will fulfill His promises by showing Israelites mercy, but His Word will never fail.
Sometimes God will fulfill His promises by hardening Israelites, but His Word will never fail.

Those judicially hardened or cut off are not born in this condition, but have “grown hardened” over years of rebellion (Acts 28:27), they are cut off for unbelief (11:20) and the hope of the apostle is that they may be grafted back in and saved (11:11-32).

 

[posthuman]

“Because you have little faith,” he said. “I assure you that if you have faith the size of a mustard seed, you could say to this mountain, ‘Go from here to there,’ and it will go. There will be nothing that you can’t do.”
Matthew 17:20

It does not state the gift of faith.

they said to Him,
Lord, increase our faith!

 

[posthuman]

Those judicially hardened or cut off are not born in this condition, but have “grown hardened” over years of rebellion (Acts 28:27), they are cut off for unbelief (11:20) and the hope of the apostle is that they may be grafted back in and saved (11:11-32).

Jacob and Esau, before they were born.
"in order that the promise of election might stand"

the argument you are citing does not address this.

 

[HeIsHere]

this does not explain how that the example in Romans 9:10-13 is Jacob and Esau before they were even born.

Believe as you will. I will go with this man's de-calvinized understanding.

Neither brother would be justified apart from grace through faith in God, even though they are direct descendants of both Abraham and Isaac. Salvation is by the covenant of grace through faith in the call of God, not the covenant of law through works.

The expressed hatred toward Esau’s household reflected in the quote from Malachi reveals:

1. Even direct descendants of Isaac himself (Edom) are not chosen for the noble purposes that God elected Israel, thus one should not assume that the opposition of direct descendants to God’s Word is an indication of its failure.
2. Even direct descendants of Isaac himself (Edom) are not guaranteed salvation, especially if they remain in opposition to those who are chosen to bring the Word of God. As conditioned upon the original promise… “I will curse those who curse you” (Gen. 12:3).

Many examples in scripture are given to show the concept of “hate” referring to simply rejecting (without disdain) one over another for a noble task (Genesis 29:31, 33; Deuteronomy 21:15; Matthew 6:24; Luke 14:26; John 12:25). (L. Flowers)

 

[HeIsHere]

they said to Him,
Lord, increase our faith!

And He did... saving faith is then strengthened by God.

 

[posthuman]

And He did... saving faith is then strengthened by God.

when you read this with no presupposition, what does it say to you?

​

The hearing ear and the seeing eye, ​

The LORD has made them both.​

(Proverbs 20:12)​

​

i never even heard of Calvin before i came to this forum, and i never heard anything about him but from people who actually disagree with ((what i later learned)) is actually hyper-calvinism, not the orthodoxy that was put down on paper by Augustine which Calvin later took up and voiced during the reformation.

 

[HeIsHere]

when you read this with no presupposition, what does it say to you?

​

The hearing ear and the seeing eye, ​

The LORD has made them both.​

(Proverbs 20:12)​

​

i never even heard of Calvin before i came to this forum, and i never heard anything but people who actually disagree with ((what i later learned)) is actually hyper-calvinism, not the orthodoxy that was put down on paper by Augustine which Calvin later took up and voiced during the reformation.

I am speaking to the narrative, I know it can seem personal but it sometimes I use "you" which I am trying to avoid but sometimes I forget, good question.

I need to read the passage but cannot it not just be the physical eye/ear not a added spiritual endowment provided to some and not others.

Both men are worth a read, I agree with some of what they say but I also see where they go off the rails because of their own personal experiences and temperaments.