Tribute To Arminianism

[hhhlga89]

Tribute to Arminianism

I tried to write this in the most inoffensive way possible (to Calvinists, obviously) I was a former Calvinist and learned that Calvinism was more of a man made theology, a sort of brain bender, then a biblical soteriology...I hope you read the whole thing, I tried to make it as concise as possible as well, God bless.

Total Depravity

Man is totally depraved, he has no capability of being good in the purest sense. His sinfulness is his nature, passed down to him from his ancestor Adam after the fall. Therefore, there is non righteous, neither is there any man that can become righteous or perfect. However, man has, out of the image of God in him, the ability to choose to do good rather then evil.

Romans 3:10 - as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one;

Matthew 5:46 - For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?

(the "tax collectors" were are a reference to unsaved people, even they have the ability to do good.)

Conditional Election

God saves in a corporate sense. He does not saved each person individually prior to their believing, but saves the group of people related to the corporate head, which is Christ. I am elected in the sense that I am in the group that God is choosing to elect, the condition by which we enter the group is faith in the work of Christ. It is similar to God "electing" Israel and not individuals, the corporate head would be Abraham, and relating to Abraham (or his lineage) was the only way one could be part of God's chosen people, that is, Israel.

Ephesians 1:4 - For he chose us IN HIM before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love

(The Father chose us only because we were in Christ.)

John 1:12 - But as many as received him, TO THEM gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

(Two things: we see that faith is how we become sons of God (how we are affiliated with the corporate head. Second thing: faith proceeds being a child of God. God does not save/make "sons of God" before faith. Faith is the condition in which we become sons of God, it is prior to regeneration.)

Unlimited Atonement

God died for ever single person on the face of the earth, throughout the entire span of history. Potentially he is the savior of all men, but in actuality only a few come by faith.

1 Timothy 4:10 - For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.

(c'mon, how can you say that means anything other then what it says...)

1 John 2:2 - He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

Resistible Grace

The infinite, omnipotent God draws men as a means of saving them. He does not save those who have not come to faith, he saves those who come to faith. Since the bible shows faith as the reason behind God granting us his Spirit, we must assume faith proceeds regeneration. If faith proceeds regeneration, an unsaved, unregenerate man is making the decision to come to Christ; since man is totally depraved it is necessary that a prevenient grace come prior to that mans decision in order to enable him to come to saving faith. Contrary to what some may think this grace does not enable part of are will (say, 50 percent), but permeates the soul into a state of neutrality. No man can boast of how he came and another didn't because each man has his own unique walk of life, and I believe God's grace appears to all men but not to all men equally.

Acts 7:51 - “You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit. As your fathers did, so do you.

Matthew 23:37 - "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.

* 2 Titus 2:11 - For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.

(If God's grace has appeared to all men and all are clearly not saved, then it is obvious that God's grace has been resisted by some.)

Conditional Perseverance of the Saints

I am not too sold on either side of the argument, but I am leaning more towards the idea that one could loose their faith. It does not mean that faith is based on works; salvation can only be lost if faith is lost. It is clear by James differentiating between faith and works (James 2:20), that faith IS NOT a work. Faith is the condition by which God sustains and keeps us. The bible gives TONS and TONS and TONS of instances where the believer is being warned not to loose his faith, warned about going to hell, told to persevere, etc. All indicating that our faith is something to be maintained.

Heb 10:26-31 - For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Heb 3:12 - Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Mark 13:13 - And you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

1 Timothy 4:1 - Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, I hope you all enjoyed, God bless.

 

[Tombo]

Read Romans chapter nine very carefully. It was written by Paul, not Calvin, and it's pretty hard to not see that God is the one who chooses us.
I've always said that there are two perspectives when we look at salvation, God's and ours. From our perspective we are to call on God for forgivenss, and trust in Jesus Christ alone for our salvation. We we see it from God's perspective we see that we are incapable of doing any good, and that He must work in us first to believe on Him. See Romans 3, "none is righteous, no, not one." "no one seeks for God" , etc. That is why we are told to "make our calling and election sure". To do that we must examine if our lives are are bearing fruit. Are we repeneting of known sin and living more sanctified lives. If we still live as the world does, we are fooling ourselves.
I love to give all honor and glory to God for my salvation. I know that it was He who saved me, and not myself. I know it from His word, and from experience. If God did not open my eyes, I would not want anything to with Him. Remeber, "no one seeks for God", Romans 3:11
God has done it all, from beginning to end.
God bless.

Tom

 

[hhhlga89]

It seems like Romans 9 is the only passage of scripture that Calvinists can site to support their claims. I did not post this as a way to start a debate, I'm not saying I am displeased with you posting. In Romans 9 Paul is simply trying to emphasise that God does not choose men based on their works or lineage. “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated,”"though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad" to show that God does not save men simply because of works or who their fathers were, like they thought. In this new covenant his election is based on faith in Christ, saving those in association with Christ. God is not Allah, he is not arbitrary. I sited that verse (Romans 3:10) in my original post, I agree, but when you bring up verses like "make our calling and election sure," it makes me think you aren't giving your theology the critical thought you should. Of course no one seeks God until his grace appears and opens our eyes and then men come to faith. You say God opened your eyes, but don't seem to agree that God does convict other men who still decide to stay in their sins. It's selfcentered and unscriptural to think God only convicts us of sin, I'm not trying to offend. Unbelievers get convicted, conviction means your eyes were made open to your sin.

Think about it. Say someone who came into the church desired to make sure they were saved, if they found out they weren't saved the whole time, they at least showed that they had the ability and desire to come (by Gods grace), if they did not have God giving them the ability and desire, they wouldn't come into the church in the first place. They would have keep fully in sin. So God does not irrisistable draw, and only some.

It is offensive to me that you say "I love to give all honor and glory to God for my salvation. I know that it was He who saved me, and not myself." If I was totally inable to come to Christ with out his enabling grace then I have no reason to give myself any thanks. Also, salvation is really the act in which God regenrates us and calls us into his kingdom; faith is something else, how salvation is granted to me. I do not regenerate myself, I do not impute righteousness to myself, I do not give myself a glorified body when I die, I do not climb my way into heaven, and anything else that is mentioned when someone speaks of salvation. salvation and faith are related but are not the same thing. NO man can do anything to save themselves. No man can die on the cross for their own sins.

Sorry for any typos.

 

[Tombo]

It seems like Romans 9 is the only passage of scripture that Calvinists can site to support their claims. I did not post this as a way to start a debate, I'm not saying I am displeased with you posting. In Romans 9 Paul is simply trying to emphasise that God does not choose men based on their works or lineage. “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated,”"though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad" to show that God does not save men simply because of works or who their fathers were, like they thought. In this new covenant his election is based on faith in Christ, saving those in association with Christ. God is not Allah, he is not arbitrary. I sited that verse (Romans 3:10) in my original post, I agree, but when you bring up verses like "make our calling and election sure," it makes me think you aren't giving your theology the critical thought you should. Of course no one seeks God until his grace appears and opens our eyes and then men come to faith. You say God opened your eyes, but don't seem to agree that God does convict other men who still decide to stay in their sins. It's selfcentered and unscriptural to think God only convicts us of sin, I'm not trying to offend. Unbelievers get convicted, conviction means your eyes were made open to your sin.

Think about it. Say someone who came into the church desired to make sure they were saved, if they found out they weren't saved the whole time, they at least showed that they had the ability and desire to come (by Gods grace), if they did not have God giving them the ability and desire, they wouldn't come into the church in the first place. They would have keep fully in sin. So God does not irrisistable draw, and only some.

It is offensive to me that you say "I love to give all honor and glory to God for my salvation. I know that it was He who saved me, and not myself." If I was totally inable to come to Christ with out his enabling grace then I have no reason to give myself any thanks. Also, salvation is really the act in which God regenrates us and calls us into his kingdom; faith is something else, how salvation is granted to me. I do not regenerate myself, I do not impute righteousness to myself, I do not give myself a glorified body when I die, I do not climb my way into heaven, and anything else that is mentioned when someone speaks of salvation. salvation and faith are related but are not the same thing. NO man can do anything to save themselves. No man can die on the cross for their own sins.

Sorry for any typos.

Look at John 6:44 "No one can to me unless the Father who sent me draws him." It doesn't say that all are drawn there, does it? If you think it is your "acceptance" of Christ that saved you, then you are relying on your works and not on God's grace.
Who do you think gives repentance? We can't repent and believe until God opens our eyes. Look at 2 Timothy 2:25, where it is speaking about pastors dealing with opponents, "correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth..."

I brought this up in another thread: Why didn't anyone in Noah's day repent and believe what he preached??? Not one soul repented and was saved. It was only Noah and his family who found grace/favor in the eyes of God. The entire world perished beacuse they were passed over by God, just as today God saves some and passes by others. It may sound harsh, but if we realize that the entire human race is dead (spiritually), and that God would have been perfectly just to destroy us all; how can we find fault with God if He decided to choose some (at a great price to Himself) and let the others perish?
I know where you're coming from, I was once there myself. I was of the belief that all one had to do was decide to trust Jesus and they were saved. Say the sinners prayer, etc. It is a lie.
Like I said, election and predestination are clearly taught in God's word, but it was not taught in order to limit the gospel call, because we don't know who the elect are and it's none of our business. From our perspective, we are to tell people to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. If God wants any saved, He will take care of it. We need not even think of election when sharing the gospel.
I have not written any of this to offend you, but to try and show you truth from God's word. Anyone who holds to the "Arminian" teaching (I hate titles) is robbing God of His glory in saving us by His free grace. To say that God saved me, but......hold it right there. God has to do it all or we are lost. We are born lost, blind, and enemies of God. The only thing we can do is call out for mercy, like the tax collector did, "God have mercy on me, a sinner." No one will have the desire to do that if God did not take the first step. Ephesians says that we are dead in sin. Dead. As Luther used to say, "dead does not mean a little alive."
I know you mean well, my friend. Just keep reading God's word and praying for wisdom as you do. We all must do that.
God bless.

Tom

 

[hhhlga89]

I don't get what you think your proving, like the verse says God "draws" not "makes". When you draw someone you don't make them, you compel them.
2 Timothy 2:25 has nothing to do with repentance and faith given to an unbeliever.

Your simply reading into the text what you want it to say. Your also doing it concerning the days of Noah when you say "The entire world perished beacuse they were passed over by God" can you provide some scriptural support?????

Of course predestination is taught in the bible, your presuppositions aren't though. Thats the problem with Calvinism, everything your telling me is based on Calvinists presuppostions that don't have to necessarly be so.

You say you know where I am coming from, but I once was a Calvinist and know where your coming from, so why does mentioning that even matter??? Who is saying "God saved me, but......"??? Yes we do need to ask for wisdom and not fall into the trap of the Watchtower and have men tell us what the bible means, as many Calvinists fall into. I too hate titles, Arminianism is just a convenience.

 

[Tombo]

I don't get what you think your proving, like the verse says God "draws" not "makes". When you draw someone you don't make them, you compel them.
2 Timothy 2:25 has nothing to do with repentance and faith given to an unbeliever.

Your simply reading into the text what you want it to say. Your also doing it concerning the days of Noah when you say "The entire world perished beacuse they were passed over by God" can you provide some scriptural support?????

Of course predestination is taught in the bible, your presuppositions aren't though. Thats the problem with Calvinism, everything your telling me is based on Calvinists presuppostions that don't have to necessarly be so.

You say you know where I am coming from, but I once was a Calvinist and know where your coming from, so why does mentioning that even matter??? Who is saying "God saved me, but......"??? Yes we do need to ask for wisdom and not fall into the trap of the Watchtower and have men tell us what the bible means, as many Calvinists fall into. I too hate titles, Arminianism is just a convenience.

Do I have scriptural support that no one in Noah's day was saved? The Bible says they all perished. How am I reading my ideas into that?
John 6:44 "no one can come to me unless that Father who sent me draws Him." It means that no one has the capability to come to Jesus unless the Father draws them. If no one can come to Jesus unless the Father draws them, and not all believe, then it is clear that not all are drawn. The greek word helkuo, is stronger than just wooing or appealing to someone. It means to drag someone. Look at Acts 16:19 "But when her owners saw that their hope of gain was gone, they seized Paul and Silas and dragged them into the marketplace before the rulers." The word dragged is the same greek work, helkuo.
People stumble over this because they think God would be unfair to save some and not all. But there is nothing unfair about it. As I've already said, since we are all dead in sin and deserve destruction, how is God unfair if He chooses some (and made a way for them to be forgiven) and leaves others in their sins?
But as I've also said, we don't know who is elect or not, and it's none of our business. You ask what my point is? My point is this: When we share the gospel with anyone, we know that if God wants to save that person, He will. It is not dependant on them "accepting" Jesus, although from our perspective we are to receive Jesus, and we will do so if God has saved us. The doctrine of election gives me comfort, because I know from my own experience that I was dead as dead could be when it came to seeking God. I was happy in my sins. So is the rest of the unsaved world. Do you think they are weeping and wailing because God didn't choose them to salvation??? The majority could care less. Most of them deny God's existence and God's word. Look at the two thieves on the cross with Jesus, both were insulting and mocking him. But then we see a change in one of them. He came to know that he was justly condemned and asked Jesus to remember him. The other thief was left in his lost state. One was not better than the other, but we see from the one's change of heart that God had worked the miracle of salvation in that mans heart.
I mean no disrespect to you in speaking about this. It is not my intention to offend. But you must have known that a title like " Tribute to Arminianism" would cause a stir. I am only trying to show you what I see from God's word.
God bless, my friend.

Tom

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It seems like Romans 9 is the only passage of scripture that Calvinists can site to support their claims. I did not post this as a way to start a debate, I'm not saying I am displeased with you posting. In Romans 9 Paul is simply trying to emphasise that God does not choose men based on their works or lineage. “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated,”"though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad" to show that God does not save men simply because of works or who their fathers were, like they thought. In this new covenant his election is based on faith in Christ, saving those in association with Christ. God is not Allah, he is not arbitrary. I sited that verse (Romans 3:10) in my original post, I agree, but when you bring up verses like "make our calling and election sure," it makes me think you aren't giving your theology the critical thought you should. Of course no one seeks God until his grace appears and opens our eyes and then men come to faith. You say God opened your eyes, but don't seem to agree that God does convict other men who still decide to stay in their sins. It's selfcentered and unscriptural to think God only convicts us of sin, I'm not trying to offend. Unbelievers get convicted, conviction means your eyes were made open to your sin.

Think about it. Say someone who came into the church desired to make sure they were saved, if they found out they weren't saved the whole time, they at least showed that they had the ability and desire to come (by Gods grace), if they did not have God giving them the ability and desire, they wouldn't come into the church in the first place. They would have keep fully in sin. So God does not irrisistable draw, and only some.

It is offensive to me that you say "I love to give all honor and glory to God for my salvation. I know that it was He who saved me, and not myself." If I was totally inable to come to Christ with out his enabling grace then I have no reason to give myself any thanks. Also, salvation is really the act in which God regenrates us and calls us into his kingdom; faith is something else, how salvation is granted to me. I do not regenerate myself, I do not impute righteousness to myself, I do not give myself a glorified body when I die, I do not climb my way into heaven, and anything else that is mentioned when someone speaks of salvation. salvation and faith are related but are not the same thing. NO man can do anything to save themselves. No man can die on the cross for their own sins.

Sorry for any typos.

Rom 9 does not even support them. only if you misinterpret romans 9 does it appear to support them.

God did not love jacob and hate esau the children, he spoke of their nations (isreal and edom) God even told their mother, two nations are in your womb, One I will bless. one I will not.

God hates none of his creation. not to mention, the word hate in hebrew does not always mean hate, but "love less" And god did not even say he hated one until malachi, many hundreds of years after the two children were dead!

 

[Tombo]

Rom 9 does not even support them. only if you misinterpret romans 9 does it appear to support them.

God did not love jacob and hate esau the children, he spoke of their nations (isreal and edom) God even told their mother, two nations are in your womb, One I will bless. one I will not.

God hates none of his creation. not to mention, the word hate in hebrew does not always mean hate, but "love less" And god did not even say he hated one until malachi, many hundreds of years after the two children were dead!

Well, God surely didn't love His creation in Noah's day. He destroyed every single one except Noah and his family. Man is not good, it's just a fact. And Romans nine could not be clearer that God chooses whom He wills. Yes, the original context was about God's choice of Jacob over Esau, but the context in Romans nine about every indiviual can't be missed, unless you want to miss it. All one has to do is look at verse 22-24 "What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of His glory for vessels of mercy, which He has prepared beforehand for glory-even us whom He has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?" Just the fact that he speaks of Jews and Gentiles shows that this chapter in not speaking of nations, but the true Israel of God composed of both Jew and Gentile.
I still say the denial comes from looking at things from our perspective of right and wrong, and not seeing that all mankind is born dead in sin and deserve to be destroyed. It also comes from a misunderstanding of the nature of hell. If one believes that God will forever torture the unsaved in a palce called hell, then we must, in our minds, make up a salvation that takes away God's sovereignty to save whom He wills, and turn it into a salvation of man who must choose God or be responsible for sending himself to a place of torment, because God would not send someone there who never had a chance to be saved. But still, even people who hold to the doctrine of the destruction of the ungodly will still try to make it that man chose it for himself. Mankind just will not admit that we are completely at the mercy of God for our salvation.
Again, from our perspective, we must receive Christ as savior. But from God's, He chooses us.
God bless.

Tom

 

[Crossfire]

In my personal opinion, Romans 5 is probably one of - if not the most - damaging chapters of scripture to Calvinism, namely the Calvinistic idea of Limited Atonement. Basicallly, limited atonement states that Christ only died for those that God selects to be saved or "the elect". However, Romans 5 states that just as sin entered and infected the entire world through one man (Adam), the cross of Christ is far greater.

Romans 5: 12-21

Death through Adam and Life through Christ

Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, in this way death spread to all men, because all sinned. In fact, sin was in the world before the law, but sin is not charged to a person’s account when there is no law. Nevertheless, death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who did not sin in the likeness of Adam’s transgression. He is a prototype of the Coming One.

But the gift is not like the trespass. For if by the one man’s trespass the many died, how much more have the grace of God and the gift overflowed to the many by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ. And the gift is not like the one man’s sin, because from one sin came the judgment, resulting in condemnation, but from many trespasses came the gift, resulting in justification. Since by the one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive the overflow of grace and the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.

So then, as through one trespass there is condemnation for everyone, so also through one righteous act there is life-giving justification for everyone.For just as through one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so also through the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous. The law came along to multiply the trespass. But where sin multiplied, grace multiplied even more so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace will reign through righteousness, resulting in eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Well, God surely didn't love His creation in Noah's day. He destroyed every single one except Noah and his family. Man is not good, it's just a fact. And Romans nine could not be clearer that God chooses whom He wills. Yes, the original context was about God's choice of Jacob over Esau, but the context in Romans nine about every indiviual can't be missed, unless you want to miss it. All one has to do is look at verse 22-24 "What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of His glory for vessels of mercy, which He has prepared beforehand for glory-even us whom He has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?" Just the fact that he speaks of Jews and Gentiles shows that this chapter in not speaking of nations, but the true Israel of God composed of both Jew and Gentile.
I still say the denial comes from looking at things from our perspective of right and wrong, and not seeing that all mankind is born dead in sin and deserve to be destroyed. It also comes from a misunderstanding of the nature of hell. If one believes that God will forever torture the unsaved in a palce called hell, then we must, in our minds, make up a salvation that takes away God's sovereignty to save whom He wills, and turn it into a salvation of man who must choose God or be responsible for sending himself to a place of torment, because God would not send someone there who never had a chance to be saved. But still, even people who hold to the doctrine of the destruction of the ungodly will still try to make it that man chose it for himself. Mankind just will not admit that we are completely at the mercy of God for our salvation.
Again, from our perspective, we must receive Christ as savior. But from God's, He chooses us.
God bless.

Tom

rom 9 was never about induviduals.

iJacob and Esau were about nations being chosen or not chosen.

Vessels spoke of the nation of Isreal. God made it. it became deformed (by its sin) and thus God would rebuild it.

there is nothing in romans 9 about salvation or non salvation of induvidual people.

if you want context of the OT passages paul mentioned, Go back to the OT and read what he quoted, then read the whole passage in the OT to get context. doing this destroys calvins interpretation of romans 9.

The context of romans 9 - 11 is did God make a mistake chosing the nation of Isreal.

 

[Tombo]

rom 9 was never about induviduals.

iJacob and Esau were about nations being chosen or not chosen.

Vessels spoke of the nation of Isreal. God made it. it became deformed (by its sin) and thus God would rebuild it.

there is nothing in romans 9 about salvation or non salvation of induvidual people.

if you want context of the OT passages paul mentioned, Go back to the OT and read what he quoted, then read the whole passage in the OT to get context. doing this destroys calvins interpretation of romans 9.

The context of romans 9 - 11 is did God make a mistake chosing the nation of Isreal.

I have read it all, and I respectfully disagree with your conclusions.
God bless.

Tom

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I have read it all, and I respectfully disagree with your conclusions.
God bless.

Tom

I have also, I even went further. I taught on romans 9. from a calvanistic perspective (which I angered a few people until they saw what I was doing) and from another persepective. I have been told to date it was one of my best teachings ever.

Thus, I also respectfully disagree with your conclusions. But you still my Bro in Christ

 

[Tombo]

I have also, I even went further. I taught on romans 9. from a calvanistic perspective (which I angered a few people until they saw what I was doing) and from another persepective. I have been told to date it was one of my best teachings ever.

Thus, I also respectfully disagree with your conclusions. But you still my Bro in Christ

Amen, brother EG. You are a brother in Christ.
God bless.

Tom

 

[hhhlga89]

Do I have scriptural support that no one in Noah's day was saved? The Bible says they all perished. How am I reading my ideas into that?

I meant scriptural support of you saying they weren't saved because God didn't irresistibly regenerate them. I know that is not what you said, but I am sure that's what you meant because your a Calvinist, am I correct? I believe no one was saved because they resisted the Holy Spirit. I believe man chose hell.

John 6:44 "no one can come to me unless that Father who sent me draws Him." It means that no one has the capability to come to Jesus unless the Father draws them. If no one can come to Jesus unless the Father draws them, and not all believe, then it is clear that not all are drawn. The greek word helkuo, is stronger than just wooing or appealing to someone. It means to drag someone. Look at Acts 16:19 "But when her owners saw that their hope of gain was gone, they seized Paul and Silas and dragged them into the marketplace before the rulers." The word dragged is the same greek work, helkuo.

No matter how you try to make John 6:44 mean what you want it to say, its just as easy to type "make" then it is "draw". I took your word for it and looked up helkuo:

definition:
1. to draw, drag off
2. metaph., to DRAW by inward power, LEAD, impel

Look, the author meant "draw" in 6:44. Just because the same word is used, doesn't always mean it means the same exact thing, you know that.

People stumble over this because they think God would be unfair to save some and not all. But there is nothing unfair about it.

You want to get psychological and make statements like this, it's really irrelevant. God just seems to be more just in a human perspective from my understanding of scripture, GOD DOESN'T ALWAYS HAVE TO SEEM IMMORAL FOR IT TO BE CORRECT THEOLOGY. If the theology that makes God seem unjust is true (Calvinism), then I would just assume I don't know it all and accept it. I don't base my theology on emotions, as you seem to think. Also we can base what is just based on God's word, he never goes against what the bible calls just, never. Not even to meet our theological desires.

As I've already said, since we are all dead in sin and deserve destruction, how is God unfair if He chooses some (and made a way for them to be forgiven) and leaves others in their sins

Because he has the power to save all.

Romans 2:11 - for there is no respect of persons with God.

God doesn't ever violate His word.

You ask what my point is? My point is this: When we share the gospel with anyone, we know that if God wants to save that person, He will. It is not dependant on them "accepting" Jesus, although from our perspective we are to receive Jesus, and we will do so if God has saved us.

So you feel good that you don't have to feel like a failure if someone doesn't get saved, good for you. I don't feel like a failure either, it can't make anyone saved. It is dependant on us accepting Jesus, just because some do who aren't saved doesn't mean no one has to...

Romans 10:9 - because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Anyone who is saved will do this. And they have to. Because that's what the bible says. If not with their mouth, then by their actions and their hearts they must show to all that they identify with Christ.

The doctrine of election gives me comfort, because I know from my own experience that I was dead as dead could be when it came to seeking God. I was happy in my sins. So is the rest of the unsaved world. Do you think they are weeping and wailing because God didn't choose them to salvation??? The majority could care less. Most of them deny God's existence and God's word. Look at the two thieves on the cross with Jesus, both were insulting and mocking him. But then we see a change in one of them. He came to know that he was justly condemned and asked Jesus to remember him. The other thief was left in his lost state. One was not better than the other, but we see from the one's change of heart that God had worked the miracle of salvation in that mans heart.
I mean no disrespect to you in speaking about this. It is not my intention to offend. But you must have known that a title like " Tribute to Arminianism" would cause a stir. I am only trying to show you what I see from God's word.
God bless, my friend.

Tom

I believe I was dead in my sins too, I did not have eternal life so I was going to hell. I was happy in my sins as well. I don't get your point of you writing about people being happy in sins. I will say, just because someone isn't aware of you being unjust to them doesn't mean it's ok to do it. So can I steal from my mothers purse while she's asleep? Not that I want to.

Luke 23:39,40 - One of the criminals who were hanged railed at him, saying, “Are you not the Christ? Save yourself and us!” But the other rebuked him, saying, “Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation?

One railed him, but the other didn't, so that argument is founded on flawed ground, so it's erroneous. I wasn't trying to start in argument, didn't you read???

I tried to write this in the most inoffensive way possible (to Calvinists, obviously)

I did not post this as a way to start a debate, I'm not saying I am displeased with you posting.

How on earth can you think I wanted to "cause a stir"????????????? Can't I just be happy about what God revealed to me and want to tell everyone????? You must think people who wave the American flag are trying to stir foreigners to anger. I don't mean to offend, but you read what I wrote and then essentially say I am being an instigator. Do you think I am a liar? I don't get it.

 

[Tombo]

I meant scriptural support of you saying they weren't saved because God didn't irresistibly regenerate them. I know that is not what you said, but I am sure that's what you meant because your a Calvinist, am I correct? I believe no one was saved because they resisted the Holy Spirit. I believe man chose hell.



No matter how you try to make John 6:44 mean what you want it to say, its just as easy to type "make" then it is "draw". I took your word for it and looked up helkuo:

definition:
1. to draw, drag off
2. metaph., to DRAW by inward power, LEAD, impel

Look, the author meant "draw" in 6:44. Just because the same word is used, doesn't always mean it means the same exact thing, you know that.



You want to get psychological and make statements like this, it's really irrelevant. God just seems to be more just in a human perspective from my understanding of scripture, GOD DOESN'T ALWAYS HAVE TO SEEM IMMORAL FOR IT TO BE CORRECT THEOLOGY. If the theology that makes God seem unjust is true (Calvinism), then I would just assume I don't know it all and accept it. I don't base my theology on emotions, as you seem to think. Also we can base what is just based on God's word, he never goes against what the bible calls just, never. Not even to meet our theological desires.



Because he has the power to save all.

Romans 2:11 - for there is no respect of persons with God.

God doesn't ever violate His word.



So you feel good that you don't have to feel like a failure if someone doesn't get saved, good for you. I don't feel like a failure either, it can't make anyone saved. It is dependant on us accepting Jesus, just because some do who aren't saved doesn't mean no one has to...

Romans 10:9 - because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Anyone who is saved will do this. And they have to. Because that's what the bible says. If not with their mouth, then by their actions and their hearts they must show to all that they identify with Christ.



I believe I was dead in my sins too, I did not have eternal life so I was going to hell. I was happy in my sins as well. I don't get your point of you writing about people being happy in sins. I will say, just because someone isn't aware of you being unjust to them doesn't mean it's ok to do it. So can I steal from my mothers purse while she's asleep? Not that I want to.

Luke 23:39,40 - One of the criminals who were hanged railed at him, saying, “Are you not the Christ? Save yourself and us!” But the other rebuked him, saying, “Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation?

One railed him, but the other didn't, so that argument is founded on flawed ground, so it's erroneous. I wasn't trying to start in argument, didn't you read???





How on earth can you think I wanted to "cause a stir"????????????? Can't I just be happy about what God revealed to me and want to tell everyone????? You must think people who wave the American flag are trying to stir foreigners to anger. I don't mean to offend, but you read what I wrote and then essentially say I am being an instigator. Do you think I am a liar? I don't get it.

If you've read both Gospels giving the account of the two thieves on the cross, you would see that one, Matthew 27:44, relates that both were railing and insulting Jesus.

And my point about being happy in my sins wasn't said to encourage sin!!!! I was just trying to prove the point that no one is worried or searching for God when they are unsaved. Have you ever seen an unsaved person unhappy while sleeping around, using drugs, drinking, etc.?
As to your other objections, I have only showed you what I see from the Bible. It is not my intention to insult you, or imply that you are saying or believing the examples that I use. If I gave that impression I apologize.
But still, you must admit that the title of your thread is just inviting those of the opposite opinion to show why we think you're wrong. No one can post something on a forum like this and expect that only those who agree with your position will comment.
Anyway, I never meant to imply that you are holding to any specific things that I mentioned Arminianism may lead to.
God bless, friend.

Tom