Trinity?

[Bowman]

Ok, show me scripture explaining you're last statement. Where does God define himself as triune?

He reveals this is Genesis and ends in Revelation.

 

[resurrection33]

Well hello!
All you Christians out there I want YOUR opinion!

I have studied this doctrine defined as the Trinity, and I tend to see a lot of issues with it. So I am just curious is someone that actually knows anything about it. (Not what you have always been taught, But what you have Studied) Would give me a brief but intellectual standpoint on it, in hopes of a discussion. What is the Trinity in your own words? And from a biblical point of view Why do you believe it?

I believe God is simultaneously a Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, like a man can simultaneously be a father, son, and husband.

 

[JCJP]

There are logical absoluTes in The field of philosophy 1 is called the law of non contradiction whcih states that an object cannot be one thing and then also another at the same time, for example. A cercle cannot be a square and a cercle at the same time this is an observable LAW therefore God cannot be ONE and THREE at the same time, this is called a lodical fallocy

 

[cmckey7127]

He reveals this is Genesis and ends in Revelation.

This is a copout!
Actually God defines himself as one throughout the entire bible.
To believe the trinity you must basically deny the entire old testament.
Isaiah 44:6, 8, 24. Isaiah 45:6,21,22, Isaiah 46:9 Due 6:4

God is not a group of persons that define them self's as one.
Them is not a correct word to use when referring to God! The correct word is HE.

All the fullness of the Godhead is in Jesus.
That's bible!
Jesus was God manifest in flesh. Not one person out of 3.

 

[JCJP]

7127 i agree with yoir post

 

[jb]

Why have you decided to insult me in such a way? I am 50 years old and was raised in an apostate church (rapture,trinity,Sunday worship,etc) where I answered the altar call at 9 years old. So brother I have been studying the word longer than you have been off of your mothers milk. Let's not insult each other over our disagreements. Prove what you believe with scripture. Show me in scripture where the word trinity is used to describe who or what God is. If it can't be found in the bible how do you know what is the definition of a trinity? Allow the bible to interpret itself and don't add to it or take anything away from it. If you decide to answer this please use scripture to prove your point.

I see you have recently edited your profile, from when I wrote my post, for under 'When saved' was written '2010' and now it reads 'the moment that I discovered the truth,' so I certainly did not insult you, I was just stating a fact that you are indeed a 2 year old Christian (as was shown by your profile)!

The word 'Trinity' does not indeed appear in the Scriptures, but the TRUTH of it is EVERYWHERE! This topic has been discussed many times on this forum, so I suggest you use the 'Search' facility and this will bring up many result, even my own posts on it.

You have used 1 Scripture, 1John 5v7, in your attempt to prove that the Trinity is wrong, so, I must say I certainly don't take you seriously.

Any other teaching on the Godhead other than that of the Trinity has AWAYS been rejected as error and heresy by the Church and this is indeed a fact of history, so, why come on here and try and peddle some other erroneous doctrine on it?

 

[jimmydiggs]

I believe that the Trinity is a false doctrine pushed in by the Catholic church to allow a small bit of paganism in the Church.

The Catholic church believes the Doctrine of the Trinity to be true, yes. The doctrine does not find its origin in the Catholic church though. It finds itself firstly in scripture, and throughout history from there.

I find no biblical evidence of the apostles believing in such a God.

Just a start:

Galatians 1:1
1 Paul, an apostle—not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead—

Paul recognizes that there is a distinction between Jesus and The Father.

Ephesians 1:3-10
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known[c] to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

Paul makes a distinction between Jesus and the Father.
It states that the Father sent Jesus, and blessed us with Jesus.

Look later in Ephesians 1, how Paul shows the exaltation of Christ.

20 that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.

Here, in Romans 5:5
5 and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.

... Paul makes a distinction between God (speaking of the Father's role in regeneration) and the Holy Spirit.

Distinctions are made, they are not the same person, but we know they each are God. Notice I said "God" singular, not "Gods" plural.

Actually In Matthew 28:19 when Jesus commanded them to Baptize in the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. They went and Baptized in the Name of Jesus Christ. (Acts 2:38) Showing that they understood that Father Son, and Holy ghost are tittles Jesus is the name.

Show me from the text that those terms; father, son, holy ghost, are just titles and nothing more.

I also will make the same statement I made earlier and That is Isaiah 9:6 where they give a Prophecy saying "[/B]
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace." Here it calls The Son (Jesus) the Father, and the counsellor which is the Holy ghost.

The verse isn't dealing with the relationship of the persons of the trinity. Rather, what it is addressing is the child who is born, Jesus. What you have is a Hebraism and it is an idiom, and the statement of "Everlasting Father" is referring to Jesus being the eternal God. The portion regarding Counselor, is not in regards to the spirit. It states expression that it is referring to the child born.

I do recognize diffrent roles God play's in.

It isn't just as though God puts on different uniforms. One moment he's a fireman, the next a mailman, and the next he's flipping burgers.

Modalism is what is called "heresy".

The above picture is a common analogy used to describe the trinity, but it is actually modalism.

The three persons aren't three hats, or three uniforms worn in different occupations. The three persons could sit together at a bus stop.

Here's an example of what I was speaking of:
Matthew 3
13 Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to John, to be baptized by him. 14 John would have prevented him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?” 15 But Jesus answered him, “Let it be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then he consented. 16 And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him,[a] and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him; 17 and behold, a voice from heaven said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.”

Jesus is being baptized, Spirit descends, and the Father in heaven says he is pleased with his Son.

But In light of the Shama I can not believe that There is 3 Deitys that somehow make up one God!

Notice, no one so far that I know of has said there are 3 deities. Rather, we have affirmed there is only one Deity, God. God exists in three persons: Father, Son, Holy Spirit.

Because that is not in the bible, The bible is about Jesus, And Jesus is God Manifest in flesh for the salvation of mankind.

The Trinity is in the bible, I have shown you this.

The Father is God manifest as are Creator, and the Father of the man Jesus, And the holy Ghost is God in action, or the spirit of Restoration. But all these three manifestations NOT PERSONS equal 1 God.

So God is just wearing three hats?

Show me from scripture.

That's the short version. If you have questions pleas ask one at a time.

Ok.

Do you believe Jesus is God?

Do you believe the Spirit is God?

Do you believe the Father is God?

 

[cmckey7127]

You have used 1 Scripture, 1John 5v7, in your attempt to prove that the Trinity is wrong, so, I must say I certainly don't take you seriously.

Any other teaching on the Godhead other than that of the Trinity has AWAYS been rejected as error and heresy by the Church and this is indeed a fact of history, so, why come on here and try and peddle some other erroneous doctrine on it?

Pleas don't be rude. And anyone that uses scripture you should take seriously.

And truthfully if you are talking about the catholic church, yeah it's been rejected. But Murder has been justified also.
If not then what church are you referring to in history?

 

[JCJP]

Again i say it is a logical fallocy to say. Something is 1 and then say it is also 3 this violates the law of non contradiction

 

[JCJP]

I would never base doctrinal issues on weather the church in history accepted it or not but rather what the bible has to say

 

[jimmydiggs]

I believe God is simultaneously a Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, like a man can simultaneously be a father, son, and husband.

This is a heresy called Modalism, it is not the scripture truth of the Trinity.

 

[jimmydiggs]

Again i say it is a logical fallocy to say. Something is 1 and then say it is also 3 this violates the law of non contradiction

Nope. It is not a violation.

The one, and the three, are not addressing the same thing.

It would be a contradiction if we said there is one God, and then say there are three Gods. That is not what we are proclaiming via the Trinity, and ultimately scripture.

 

[jb]

Pleas don't be rude. And anyone that uses scripture you should take seriously.

And truthfully if you are talking about the catholic church, yeah it's been rejected. But Murder has been justified also.
If not then what church are you referring to in history?

Rest assured, young fellow, I was not being rude but very serious!

I suggest you go and do some more reading and consult different references on Church history and you will see that every teaching offered on the Godhead, other than that of the Trinity has ALWAYS been rejected as heresy!

Now, quite frankly, if you had done a Search of the forum you would have found stacks of posts on this subject and all you are doing here is going over ground that has been covered numerous times!

 

[JCJP]

Jimmy diggs, that very long post that was written i would. Love to reply to.
1st yes i belive that father, son and spirit are GOD (singular) but apon asking this question i wander if you have fallen on your own sward, if i am going to acknowledge that the father, son and spirit are all godin what way should i go about that?

2nd its vital to Understand that when paul is giving a salutaion in scripture he is proclaiming a doctrinal stants he was him self a ONEGOD jew After all it should. Further be noted that in EPH. 1 he DIDNOT mention a trinity but rather God our father (the omnipotant bing) and the Lord Jesus (the doorway to that being) using that verse alnoe does not do Justus in explaining or edentifying the New Testiment God.

 

[cmckey7127]

The only church history I'm interested in is what's shown in the bible.
I understand this has been covered many time's.
Does not mean it is settled.

Pleas do not try to announce your superiority by calling me young. Thank you.

 

[cmckey7127]

As for the rest of the comment made tonight, I will try to get back to them tomorrow! And post a more full description of the Truth.
Good night. God Bless!

 

[jimmydiggs]

Actually God defines himself as one throughout the entire bible.

We believe there is only one God.

To believe the trinity you must basically deny the entire old testament.
Isaiah 44:6, 8, 24. Isaiah 45:6,21,22, Isaiah 46:9 Due 6:4

No there is no denial of the OT. Each of those verses is dealing with the number of gods. That there is only one God.

Isaiah 44:6
6 Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel
and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
“I am the first and I am the last;
besides me there is no god.

Yes, there is only one God.

Isaiah 44:8
Fear not, nor be afraid;
have I not told you from of old and declared it?
And you are my witnesses!
Is there a God besides me?
There is no Rock; I know not any.”

There is no God besides God.

Isaiah 45:6
that people may know, from the rising of the sun
and from the west, that there is none besides me;
I am the Lord, and there is no other.

The hebrew word used for "Lord" is Yhovah, and there is only one Jehovah.

On and on I could go.. but I think you get the point.

God is not a group of persons that define them self's as one.

That's not what we are saying.

The three do not define themselves as one, as though they are separate beings.

Them is not a correct word to use when referring to God! The correct word is HE.

If the persons are distinct, yes. The three persons are a "them", and God is a "He." Each of the persons of the Trinity are a "he".

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCxmR3ntDfQ[/video]

 

[jimmydiggs]

If not then what church are you referring to in history?

The Bride of Christ.

Revelation 19:7-9
Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride has made herself ready; it was granted her to clothe herself with fine linen, bright and pure”— for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints. And the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.” And he said to me, “These are the true words of God.”

2 Corinthians 11:2
For I feel a divine jealousy for you, since I betrothed you to one husband, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ.

 

[JCJP]

Jimmybriggs
John 3:6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

Proverbs 16:4 The LORD works out everything to its proper end—even the wicked for a day of disaster.

John 1:13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
I am not sure how these verses are relevent in explaining how God is simaltaniousely 1 and not 1 this is after all refering to the LAW of NON contradiction theese verses are refering to Gods constancy but not his personhood i think its an additional point to say "no this is not a fallocy" but only gives verses that do not refer to god as a trinity.

 

[jimmydiggs]

Jimmy diggs, that very long post that was written i would. Love to reply to.
1st yes i belive that father, son and spirit are GOD (singular)

Is the Father the Son?
Is the Father the Spirit?
Is the Son the Spirit?
Is the Son the Father?
Is the Spirit the Son?
Is the Spirit the Father?

if i am going to acknowledge that the father, son and spirit are all godin what way should i go about that?

I'm not sure I understand your question. Could you please clarify?

2nd its vital to Understand that when paul is giving a salutaion in scripture he is proclaiming a doctrinal stants he was him self a ONEGOD jew After all it should.

We affirm there is only one God. Christians and Jews agree that there is only one deity.

Further be noted that in EPH. 1 he DIDNOT mention a trinity but rather God our father (the omnipotant bing) and the Lord Jesus (the doorway to that being) using that verse alnoe does not do Justus in explaining or edentifying the New Testiment God.

It does not give the full doctrine of the Trinity, and that was not my point.

Ephesians 1
3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.

Does this verse say that God the Father is the God of our Lord Jesus Christ?

John 20:17
Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"

You believe Jesus is God.

Yet, Jesus says that he has a God. Who is his God?