Da... Man is not a trinity man is flesh and spirit which became a living soul being joined together. BECAME ....no longer .... BECAME
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Da... Man is not a trinity man is flesh and spirit which became a living soul being joined together. BECAME ....no longer .... BECAME
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ELECT
Guest
[h=1]1 Thessalonians 5:23New King James Version (NKJV)[/h][h=3]Blessing and Admonition[/h]23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
First of all, who says ALL you Christians..believe it? It's none biblical and of no sense to the Christian.
Galatians 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
Notice it doesn't say, sent forth the third person of the trinity (known by false teaches) as the Holy Spirit.
That is because there is no third person. God is Spirit and the Son is God. Amen. And that is the facts. It's isn't hard to understand if you see and hear what the Spirit says.
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Anonimous
Guest
Re: You're reaching for the stars...
19 Go therefore [SUP][/SUP] and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,...
19 Go therefore [SUP][/SUP] and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,...
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Anonimous
Guest
19 Go therefore [SUP][/SUP] and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
That sums it up. It's not something we can figure out, like a math problem. The Trinity can be best understood by analogy. Analogy is a similarity between like features of two things, on which a comparison may be based: the analogy between the heart and a pump. The human family is the closest analogy we have that helps us understand the Trinity.
The creeds teach that while there is one God, He exists in three distinct persons. The bible, on the other hand, reveals that man is made in the 'image of God'. From these two truths, therefore, we can acknowledge that the complete image of God is found in the Triune understanding of Him.
This understanding of His Triune nature is reflected by the human family whose personal relationships approach the likeness of the Trinity. There are multiple demonstrations of this truth.
Consider the unity of the Trinity which is reflected in the unity of the family. Or the "family of persons" which is found in both. The persons of the Trinity share the 'same substance ' while a human family becomes one flesh: wife with husband and parents with children.
There is also another element in the Trinity that lends itself to human likeness. The Nicene Creed professes this about the Trinity: "We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life who proceeds from the Father and the Son."
The Holy Spirit is said to proceed from the will of both the Father and the Son, or in other words, through the activity which they engage in, otherwise known as "love".
The Holy Spirit is poured forth through the exchange of love between the Father and the Son. This is why perhaps Jesus says to the Apostles: " Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you." (John 16:7)
In the eternal economy of the Trinity, therefore, a person 'proceeds' from the love between two other persons. And so, the Holy Spirit is love 'proceeding' or 'coming from' the first two persons of the Blessed Trinity.
The human family has a rather striking parallel to this dynamic. The ultimate act of intimacy in a marriage mirrors the eternal exchange of love between the first two persons of the Trinity. And like the eternal or continual procession of the Holy Spirit in the Trinity, the act of love between a man and a woman causes a 'procession' of another human person (i.e. the birth of a child).
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ChristIsGod
Guest
Hi Brother. I'm sorry that I'm just finding this. Also sorry for my wording last night. I should know better than to post after a long day. Your posts do seem patient, from what I've read on this thread - but it's bothered me since I went offline last night that my wording was not as polite as it should have been.
Moving along to my definition of the Trinity - all I would give as an answer to that is Scripture. As our conversation started with 'we will make our abode" and my own analogy of what I believe to be the created trichotomy of man as body, soul & spirit - created in the image of God, tripartite - but of course not perfect in comparison - though to be one as Jesus and the Father & Spirit are one would be wonderful. One fine day we will be!
Though this verse gets or has been thrown out as not original to the text - I do find nothing in it that should merit the rush to disregard it... 1John 5:7 is still a keeper for me regardless.
As I mentioned earlier - I'm classified as a trinitarian, but I've seen such nonsense coming from some that have the pre-incarnate Word of God, asking "father" - "How can we save them from their sin, Father?" and similarly composed 'conversations' between The LORD of Hosts/The Word of God who is needing to ask GOD what's going to happen next, and so forth.
And as I also mentioned last night - people telling the Holy Spirit what to do and referring to Him as an 'it'.
I do not believe that the pre-incarnate Word of God needed to ask any questions - for He is the same GOD through-out the O.T. and He was and now is again omniscient - until and while He became/was a man, to be our Example of how to fully depend on God for our words and acts, as He did while in the flesh.
Brother, there are literally hundreds of O.T. verses that prove out that He Who is also called The Word is as equal to the Father and His Spirit is not a different Spirit than The Holy Spirit or The Spirit of God.... They are ONE GOD. But for GOD to try to explain this to pea brained humans like us - He didn't have much mincing of words in explaining Himself for our benefit in the O.T., but in the New Testament, the man Jesus, had to almost use parables of sorts to explain Who He was. The very GOD that Israel knew through their own Scriptures. Creator GOD!
When it truly hits us that Creator GOD was on that cross - it should knock us off our seats onto our faces, but though we read what John wrote - we read it without much breath-taking awe. Even Rev 19's description of how He'll look at His 2nd Coming, only becomes something that artists find fun to try to paint - when it should take our breath away. John fell on his face when he saw glorified Christ in Rev 1, the same disciple that had his head on the Savior's chest, had to be lifted up when seeing Him Who is returning with a new Name that no man knows. Mystery of mysteries - we don't know it all.
Very few Christians that I've met, can see that the man they know as Jesus is the same GOD of the O.T. that's doing all the talking and giving the words that these prophets wrote by His Own Spirit, as Peter said. The same GOD that came as the fire by night - the Shekinah glory - and every other manifestation of GOD "The Almighty".
I believe most are awed by the big events that they read of in the O.T. but not as many are seeing that this is the same One that hung on that cross for them.
As I said before, Brother - I'm more concerned about us seeing the "echad" part of the Shema because I think that's what's wrong with The Church as far as their 'reverence' for The Holy.
I wanted to give you all Scriptures - but it appears I needed to release a heavy burden instead. It weighs on me when I hear certain types of 'Christian' music - I wonder if they've "seen Him" as Isaiah or Ezekiel did and would they sing such flippant songs to the One True GOD - the LORD GOD Almighty - The LORD of Hosts? The One standing in the midst of the seven candlesticks and the seven spirits of GOD and The Lamb - GOD our Savior - all being One.
Thank you for your patience.
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The Trinity as absolute truth is not something that is intellectually known or rationalized. It is an absolute truth that you KNOW HIM as the Triune GOD, the only GOD that exists, in your human spirit AFTER you are Born Again, which is when the HOLY SPIRIT brings your human spirit to become eternally alive, KNOWING HIM in your spirit personally. In fact in 1 Cor. 2:10-14, we find that there are many deep things about GOD that can only be understood after your human spirit is alive (born again). Prior to that our human spirits are dead in our trespasses, not in tune with the will of God, but rather in tune with the will of the flesh. Therefore spiritual truths are foolishness until the Holy Spirit comes into our hearts, and flips that spiritual switch from "dead in our trespasses" to "eternally alive in Christ".
For me the easiest way to understand what is a Triune Being is to remember that we are created in the image of GOD, and YET there is NOTHING about us that is like GOD, except ONE THING
We were created with a Body, a Soul, and a Human Spirit.
THREE Separate parts, each with a separate function within our make-up,
YET we are still only ONE HUMAN BEING.
Two of the parts are invisible, and one is visible.
JUST LIKE GOD.
That is why it is NOT a grammatical error when HE says to Baptize in the NAME (SINGULAR)
of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.
Perhaps this song will help you to genuinely come to KNOW HIM in your human spirit, as the Holy Trinity:
[video=youtube;HcnfT4arZtI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcnfT4arZtI[/video]
I would say that a 'Christian Jew' is an oxymoron.
There cannot be such a thing....A Jew, by definition, denies The Son...and a Christian, by definition, accepts The Son.
You need to ask yourself why only a remnant of Jews were allowed to move into the future, while the majority improperly worshiped Yahweh, and were utterly destroyed, as recorded in thousands of OT verses...
The Shema is Triune...the Jews that see this are now called Christians...
Agreed...
Elohim is a flexible term, and its usage is determined by context.
Elohim does NOT mean 'three gods' when applied to Yahweh....it refers to the Three Persons of the One Being, God.
The Holy Spirit is NOT Jesus....there are legions of scriptures showing that they are separate Persons.
Actually, 'echad' or any root derivative is not even mentioned in Isa 45.18....
What is mentioned is 'haelohim'...i.e. literally 'all the Gods', again referring to The Triune God.
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Re: You're reaching for the stars...
not dip three time or dip and in the name of the F S HS
Which is just Jesus name
not dip three time or dip and in the name of the F S HS
Again...
Your next three examples ALL state the same thing in the Hebrew...that Yahweh is 'haelohim'...i.e. all the Gods!
Your selection of scriptures really is impeccable....
Interesting theory, but GOD disagrees with you, they retain the Jewish lineage when they become Christian.
AND there are NOT three Gods that make up the Triune GOD, there are three personages that make the ONE AND ONLY GOD. All other gods are created in the minds of men and really do not exist, and NEVER have and NEVER will.
Romans 2:28-29 (HCSB)
[SUP]28 [/SUP] For a person is not a Jew who is one outwardly, and ⌊true⌋ circumcision is not something visible in the flesh.
[SUP]29 [/SUP] On the contrary, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision is of the heart—by the Spirit, not the letter. That man’s praise is not from men but from God.
Romans 9:6-8 (GW)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Now it is not as though God's word has failed. Clearly, not everyone descended from Israel is part of Israel
[SUP]7 [/SUP] or a descendant of Abraham. However, {as Scripture says,} “Through Isaac your descendants will carry on your name.”
[SUP]8 [/SUP] This means that children born by natural descent {from Abraham} are not necessarily God's children. Instead, children born by the promise are considered Abraham's descendants.
You are trying to apply your OWN definition to the word Jew, and NOT using GOD's Definition.
Statement of Faith - MJAA
Isaiah 43:10-12 (HCSB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] “You are My witnesses”— ⌊this is⌋ the LORD’s declaration— “and My servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe Me and understand that I am He. No god was formed before Me, and there will be none after Me.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] I, I am Yahweh, and there is no other Savior but Me.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] I alone declared, saved, and proclaimed— and not some foreign god among you. So you are My witnesses”— ⌊this is⌋ the LORD’s declaration— “and I am God.
1 Kings 8:60 (HCSB)
[SUP]60 [/SUP] and so that all the peoples of the earth may know that Yahweh is God. There is no other!
2 Chronicles 13:9 (NIV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] But didn't you drive out the priests of the LORD, the sons of Aaron, and the Levites, and make priests of your own as the peoples of other lands do? Whoever comes to consecrate himself with a young bull and seven rams may become a priest of what are not gods.
Jeremiah 16:20 (HCSB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] Can one make gods for himself? But they are not gods.
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ChristIsGod
Guest
Re: TriUnity
Good day, Bowman!
I wrote that I'm looking through the eyes of a Christian Jew [looking at the Shema] and ...
I'd have to reply to what you've written with -
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Rom 11:17-24 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
Who indwells true believers? Are the Three in One "Co-Equal"?
See how interchangeably 'The Spirit' and 'He' are used in different verses?
John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and We will come unto him, and make Our abode with him.
Gal 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
Php 1:19 For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ
Job 26:13 By 'His spirit' He hath garnished the heavens; His hand hath formed the crooked serpent.
[Heb 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God ....]
1Corth 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by His Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
1John 4:13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
Rom 8:9-11 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
1Pet 1:10,11 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
Out of the list of verses that I posted ...
If John 1:3 & 10 states that 'Jesus' created all things, can you see why Isaiah 45:18 was also in that list of verses I posted - to display the 'echad' of our LORD and God, in that Jesus created all things = Co-equality, that is also called 'compound unity' by some. There are non-Christian Jews/Hebrew scholars that believe that 'Elohim' is plural, as well --- but though I've posted that I do believe in this plurality from my beginning post - I've also posted why it is also important to see 'echad' in the Shema for some very important reasons that I've tried to share.
Do you see any Names of the Almighty that are used in the O.T. that refer to "God the father" & other names for who we now call Jesus? Some do, some don't - so that's why I ask.
Anxiously awaiting This Day ...
Zech 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and His name One.
[interesting chpts - Zech 13 & 14]
Praise:
Jude 1:25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.
Good day, Bowman!
I wrote that I'm looking through the eyes of a Christian Jew [looking at the Shema] and ...
I'd have to reply to what you've written with -
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Rom 11:17-24 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
and ...
Who indwells true believers? Are the Three in One "Co-Equal"?
See how interchangeably 'The Spirit' and 'He' are used in different verses?
John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and We will come unto him, and make Our abode with him.
Gal 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
Php 1:19 For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ
Job 26:13 By 'His spirit' He hath garnished the heavens; His hand hath formed the crooked serpent.
[Heb 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God ....]
1Corth 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by His Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
1John 4:13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
Rom 8:9-11 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
1Pet 1:10,11 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
Out of the list of verses that I posted ...
If John 1:3 & 10 states that 'Jesus' created all things, can you see why Isaiah 45:18 was also in that list of verses I posted - to display the 'echad' of our LORD and God, in that Jesus created all things = Co-equality, that is also called 'compound unity' by some. There are non-Christian Jews/Hebrew scholars that believe that 'Elohim' is plural, as well --- but though I've posted that I do believe in this plurality from my beginning post - I've also posted why it is also important to see 'echad' in the Shema for some very important reasons that I've tried to share.
Do you see any Names of the Almighty that are used in the O.T. that refer to "God the father" & other names for who we now call Jesus? Some do, some don't - so that's why I ask.
Anxiously awaiting This Day ...
Zech 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and His name One.
[interesting chpts - Zech 13 & 14]
Praise:
Jude 1:25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.
Re: You're reaching for the stars...
No either are correct as GOD is the sum total of all that He is, but NOTICE:
In Mat. 28:19 it CORRECTLY says in the NAME (Singular), because the Three are ONE GOD.
No either are correct as GOD is the sum total of all that He is, but NOTICE:
In Mat. 28:19 it CORRECTLY says in the NAME (Singular), because the Three are ONE GOD.
Re: You're reaching for the stars...
One other point, I personally know of very few Churches that dip the Baptizee three times, because the THREE ARE ONE GOD.
After giving their statement of faith, publicly proclaiming their testimony of believing and receiving Jesus Christ as their LORD, I baptize them with one immersion with this statement: "Because of your statement of faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, I baptize you in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."
One other point, I personally know of very few Churches that dip the Baptizee three times, because the THREE ARE ONE GOD.
After giving their statement of faith, publicly proclaiming their testimony of believing and receiving Jesus Christ as their LORD, I baptize them with one immersion with this statement: "Because of your statement of faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, I baptize you in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."
I found more information for you. Please read this page: Messianic Judaism - MJAA
And please remember what GOD said:
Jeremiah 3:12-15 (ESV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Go, and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, “‘Return, faithless Israel, declares the LORD. I will not look on you in anger, for I am merciful, declares the LORD; I will not be angry forever.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Only acknowledge your guilt, that you rebelled against the LORD your God and scattered your favors among foreigners under every green tree, and that you have not obeyed my voice, declares the LORD.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Return, O faithless children, declares the LORD; for I am your master; I will take you, one from a city and two from a family, and I will bring you to Zion.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] “‘And I will give you shepherds after my own heart, who will feed you with knowledge and understanding.
GOD is not finished with those of ISRAEL who are His chosen Nation, especially those who choose to receive Yeshua as LORD. The 70th Week of Daniel will be fulfilled in the future, and maybe it will happen SOON. GOD is calling the scattered children of Israel back to their homeland.
Jeremiah 32:37-42 (NKJV)
[SUP]37 [/SUP] Behold, I will gather them out of all countries where I have driven them in My anger, in My fury, and in great wrath; I will bring them back to this place, and I will cause them to dwell safely.
[SUP]38 [/SUP] They shall be My people, and I will be their God;
[SUP]39 [/SUP] then I will give them one heart and one way, that they may fear Me forever, for the good of them and their children after them.
[SUP]40 [/SUP] And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from doing them good; but I will put My fear in their hearts so that they will not depart from Me.
[SUP]41 [/SUP] Yes, I will rejoice over them to do them good, and I will assuredly plant them in this land, with all My heart and with all My soul.'
[SUP]42 [/SUP] "For thus says the LORD: 'Just as I have brought all this great calamity on this people, so I will bring on them all the good that I have promised them.
1 Chronicles 16:13-18 (NKJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] O seed of Israel His servant, You children of Jacob, His chosen ones!
[SUP]14 [/SUP] He is the LORD our God; His judgments are in all the earth.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] Remember His covenant forever, The word which He commanded, for a thousand generations,
[SUP]16 [/SUP] The covenant which He made with Abraham, And His oath to Isaac,
[SUP]17 [/SUP] And confirmed it to Jacob for a statute, To Israel for an everlasting covenant,
[SUP]18 [/SUP] Saying, "To you I will give the land of Canaan As the allotment of your inheritance,"
(How many true Jewish believers in Yeshua as Messiah in their mortal bodies
will inherit the land in HIS Kingdom? FEW, 144,000 to be exact.)
No worries...
No doubt, this is where your confusion first started...as you don't really have a defined reference point as to what the Orthodox definition of the Trinity is....right?
Yes, it is derived from scripture....but, what do you think that it is....?
Your confusion of the Holy Spirit being Jesus is clearly NOT what orthodoxy teaches, and your examples likewise do not merit your worldview...
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Guest
Water can occur in three states: solid (ice), liquid, or gas (vapor).but it is still water
Thus the Godhead is the same
Thus the Godhead is the same
Do you believe that The Son was in the flesh in the OT...?
John does...
He was in the world, and the world came into being through Him, yet the world did not know Him. He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave authority to become children of God, to the ones believing into His name, who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but were born of God. And the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us. And we beheld His glory, glory as of an only begotten from the Father, full of grace and of truth. John witnesses concerning Him, and has cried out, saying, This One was He of whom I said, He coming after me has been before me, for He was preceding me. And out of His fullness we all received, and grace on top of grace. For the Law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God, who is in the bosom of the Father, that One declares Him.(John 1.10 – 18)
Scripture clearly informs the reader that the Word occupied flesh when He was in the world and that He was beheld as The Glory of God.
That the second person of the Trinity occupied flesh before being born of a woman and being referred to as God The Son, is made crystal clear by John’s proclamation that ‘He coming after me has been before me, for He was preceding me’.This is a full admission that The Son was manifest both before John’s time and after John’s time.