True Born Again Christians Have Eternal Security

[svedbygrace]

John 10:27-29

27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

It's impossible that one of Christ's Sheep can perish, die in their sins, because Christ has already died in their stead for their sins 1 Cor 15:3, and He was raised again for their Justification Rom 4:25. He has already accomplished their Eternal Redemption for them Heb 9:12, and now is seated in heaven at the right hand of God making intercession for them. Heb 7:25; Rom 8:34

34Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.


34

 

[follower2]

So with all of this, is it enough simply to sin that makes you lose your salvation?
and 2: are we just talking about the 10 commandments? or other things that are considered sinful?

 

[svedbygrace]

So with all of this, is it enough simply to sin that makes you lose your salvation?
and 2: are we just talking about the 10 commandments? or other things that are considered sinful?

Did you understand the points of Post 361?

 

[follower2]

Than why is there a 360 + post thread about this?
and to those who think that sinning does lose your salvation (Sinless ?)
Does this only apply to the 10 commandments?

 

[homwardbound]

Than why is there a 360 + post thread about this?
and to those who think that sinning does lose your salvation (Sinless ?)
Does this only apply to the 10 commandments?

We all have sinned, whether we still do or not is not the issue here to me from waht I see
The issue is what did God do at the cross through his Son?
it is up to each person to read for themselves to learn truth. Not just hear others For example When Christ went to the cross what was his purpose? was it to take away sin or not?
[h=3]John 1:29[/h]King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]29 [/SUP]The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

John was and is the witness for this to be before it came to be, so let's see what Doctines, epistles have to say
Galatians 3:13
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”
Galatians 3:14He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.
1 Peter 1:18For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your ancestors,
Romans 3:24and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
1 Corinthians 1:30It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption
Ephesians 1:7In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace
Ephesians 1:14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.
Ephesians 4:30And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
Colossians 1:14in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
Hebrews 9:12He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption

Just these scriptures by themselves tells me that Christ died for all and took away all sin eradicated it for all that do come to belief, and then came the resurrection where we are then made alive to God the Father of Christ
Romans 6:4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

Just food for thought and if you will go and read all the verses in context and just see for yourself how amazing God is and start your reaponse to God today if you haven't yet
I see God as the creator of all and me as the creation. I used to try and do this or that trying to create my own atmosphere until I saw what I just said today I am a responder to God's grace and not an initiator any longer
Love God's type best described in 1 cor 13:4-13

 

[Skinski7]

Than why is there a 360 + post thread about this?
and to those who think that sinning does lose your salvation (Sinless ?)
Does this only apply to the 10 commandments?

Well that answer to your question would depend on your definition of salvation would it not?

If salvation is purely akin to receiving a "stamp of approval" which is totally disconnected from the condition of your heart thus assuring a disconnect between salvation and the fruit one produces then how could anything you do or don't do effect this stamp of approval?

If salvation, on the other hand, is actually a state whereby one has actually been rescued from the bondage of sin (ie. the compulsion and practice of ongoing engagement in sin) and being rescued from the death due for sins already committed then the answer to your question is something else entirely.

Thus instead of asking of one can "lose their salvation" perhaps it is pertinent to examine "what actually is salvation."

Also, are there multiple facets to salvation as described in the Bible with some being applicable now whilst others are a hope for the future?



Word definitions and the actual concepts behind them are very important for words are mere shadows of an idea in the mind. In order to communicate an idea we use language ala "character strings" as the means to present the same idea to another. If the other person (who is receiving the communique) has a different understanding of the language then the "idea" or "mind concept" they'll receive will be vastly different than that which was originally intended and communicated.

We see this evidenced when Satan tempted Jesus in the wilderness with his misuse of the Scripture. Whilst Satan accurately quoted Scripture he presented it out of context in order to communicate an idea which was a perversion of the truth.

There is nothing new under the sun.

 

[notuptome]

Those who claim one can lose their salvation are in a weak position. For that to be possible the blood of Christ would need be less than sufficient to save. The Holy Spirit would need to be less than able to seal unto the day of redemption. Of those who teach loss of salvation none teach that one cannot be re-saved. I have never met one who thought that they would lose their salvation only saw it in others.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Skinski7]

We should [OPTIONAL, skin] do good works after we get saved. After all, we have the Judgment Seat of Christ to look forward to. And we should want to earn as many rewards for our Lord Jesus Christ as we possibly can. [In other words WHAT YOU CHOOSE TO DO has NOTHING to do with the outcome of your salvation. Whether you spit in God's face or submit to His will only relates to rewards right? , skin]

But to teach that our good works is what keeps us saved is not Scriptural. [Saved from WHAT? What is one saved from? , skin] At least not for the Church Age. It is the Holy Spirit that seals us who keeps us saved. And it is the power of God which keeps us saved.

Let's put this to the test where the rubber meets the road.

Under your doctrine can a serial murderer STILL be engaged in acts of serial murder AFTER SALVATION?

Is that a possibility?

Or would the murdering have completely stopped?


Can you DIRECTLY answer that question?

Here is your dilemma. If you answer YES that the murdering will have ceased then you'll be admitting that CONDUCT is connected to salvation. If you answer NO then you'll be upholding that salvation is purely forensic and that conduct does not matter which, when taken in context of ongoing murder, show the fallacious nature of your doctrine.



Here is what the Bible teaches...

1Jn 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
1Jn 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
1Jn 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

It seems pretty clear to me.

 

[svedbygrace]

Than why is there a 360 + post thread about this?
and to those who think that sinning does lose your salvation (Sinless ?)
Does this only apply to the 10 commandments?

Did you understand the points of Post 361?

 

[Skinski7]

Those who claim one can lose their salvation are in a weak position. For that to be possible the blood of Christ would need be less than sufficient to save. [Only not sufficient in the context of the blood of Christ being a CLOAK FOR ONGOING REBELLION, yet if the blood of Christ is understood to "cleanse the conscience of the guilt of PAST transgression" then the engagement in FUTURE transgression redefiles the conscience.]

Here is a pertinent passage...

Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. Those who preach that "you can sin and not surely die completely ignore that the blood of Christ sprinkles the heart from an evil conscience. If I am wrong with this assertion then how can ongoing acts of rebellion to God be maintained with a clean conscience UNLESS the "blood is a cloak for ongoing rebellion" hence "grace is a license to sin and not surely die."
Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised
Heb 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
Heb 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? Ongoing willful sin after being sanctified by the blood is treading on the blood of Christ.

2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

If the blood of Christ purges us from our "old sins/dead works" and one CONTINUES TO ENGAGE IN TRANSGRESSION ala prooftexting 1Joh 1:8-9 then is not the blood of Jesus a license to sin?

If on the other hand the blood of Christ remits the PAST CRIMINAL RECORD of rebellion to God upon the condition of repentance and faith (whereby the rebellion has ceased) then to re-offend would surely be treating the grace of God with contempt would it not?

What does the Bible actually teach is the question that one must ask.

Does conduct matter? I say yes it does!

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

 

[starfield]

As for me, I won't gloss over this verse that clearly refutes unconditional eternal security: "But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven" (Matt 10:33). Christians today may not necessarily deny Jesus by saying "I don't know you", but rather deny Him by their lifestyle; such are merely Christians by word only, and it displeases God. Authentic faith will be accompanied with godly fruit - the fruit of the Spirit. I believe every born again Christian should make a firm decision to cleave to the One who bought their salvation in every circumstance.

 

[Skinski7]

Skinski = Blue (with some red for emphasis).

John 10:27-29

27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: [The sheep of Jesus FOLLOW Him. If you are not FOLLOWING Him you are not His sheep.]

28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. [Those who FOLLOW will never perish. Those who FOLLOW will not be plucked out by any man.]

Compare to...

Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Compare to...

Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. [If one is led then they must be FOLLOWING]

Gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
Gal 6:9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not. [IF WE FAINT NOT we will reap life everlasting.]

You won't present those scriptures above svedbygrace will you in your teachings??? You do what Satan does and isolate scriptures out of context in order to manufacture a lie.

How about this one...

Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

The Bible harmonises perfectly on CONTINUING.

Salvation is a STATE and eternal life is a HOPE conditioned on CONTINUING in the faith. It is not lip service to God but a WALK.

Romans 11:17-22 undermines your theological system at the very root. What purpose would there be of such a warning is the souls of men were secure apart from the choices they continue to make?

Those in the wilderness "believed in God" in the sense that they knew he existed and was real. Their unbelief was not lack of "lip service," rather it was a lack of obedience to the will of God. The rebellion of those in the wilderness is set forth as an example to us that we not follow in their footsteps.

1Co 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
1Co 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
1Co 10:3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
1Co 10:5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
1Co 10:6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
1Co 10:7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
1Co 10:8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
1Co 10:9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
1Co 10:10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
1Co 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
1Co 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
1Co 10:14 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry.

You CAN FALL if you CHOOSE to yield to temptation instead of choosing the way of escape.

Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Rev 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. Many are called but FEW are chosen. It is the FEW who are FOLLOWERS, who PICK UP THEIR CROSS, DENY THEMSELVES, and ENDURE TO THE END. It is those who no man will pluck out of the Father's hand, it is those who will not be lost.

It's impossible that one of Christ's Sheep can perish, die in their sins, because Christ has already died in their stead for their sins 1 Cor 15:3, and He was raised again for their Justification Rom 4:25. You read substitutional heresy into these verses when they say no such thing. Jesus died for our sins (1Cor 15:3) so that we can be cleansed of our past sin (Rom 3:25, 1Pet 1:9) upon approaching God in repentance and faith (Luk 24:47). He was raised again for our justification (Rom 4:25) in that it is by faith that we are justified (Rom 5:1, Rom 4:5) a faith that has a walk (Rom 4:12), a faith which involves a full persuasion of the mind (Rom 4:21), a faith whereby we are DOERS (Heb 11) and not hearers only (Mat 7:26) deceiving ourselves (Jam 1:22).

Faith is the dynamic whereby we submit ourselves to God having been fully persuaded that God has our best interest in mind and that His ways are the right ways. When we do this the love of God is manifested through us, is perfected in us, the end result being the manifest fruit of righeousness.

1Ti 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:

Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

So instead of...

Act_14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

You spend your time defending, "YOU CAN SIN AND NOT SURELY DIE" via the methodology of isolating carefully selected prooftexts in order to give credence toyour deception.


Act 20:27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
Act 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Act 20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
Act 20:31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.


Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.



He has already accomplished their Eternal Redemption for them Heb 9:12, and now is seated in heaven at the right hand of God making intercession for them. Heb 7:25; Rom 8:34

34Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

You are very deceptive with how you manipulate scriptures...

Heb 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

One has to COME TO GOD in order to be saved. One has to come to God with a TRUE HEART.

Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

Your doctrine COMPLETELY IGNORES what the Bible teaches on WALKING AFTER THE SPIRIT.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

 

[notuptome]

Here is a pertinent passage...

Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. Those who preach that "you can sin and not surely die completely ignore that the blood of Christ sprinkles the heart from an evil conscience. If I am wrong with this assertion then how can ongoing acts of rebellion to God be maintained with a clean conscience UNLESS the "blood is a cloak for ongoing rebellion" hence "grace is a license to sin and not surely die."
Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised
Heb 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
Heb 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? Ongoing willful sin after being sanctified by the blood is treading on the blood of Christ.

2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

If the blood of Christ purges us from our "old sins/dead works" and one CONTINUES TO ENGAGE IN TRANSGRESSION ala prooftexting 1Joh 1:8-9 then is not the blood of Jesus a license to sin?

If on the other hand the blood of Christ remits the PAST CRIMINAL RECORD of rebellion to God upon the condition of repentance and faith (whereby the rebellion has ceased) then to re-offend would surely be treating the grace of God with contempt would it not?

What does the Bible actually teach is the question that one must ask.

Does conduct matter? I say yes it does!

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

We are made new in Christ the old is passed away. 2 Cor 5:17 We are no longer under the law we are under grace. I do not say that we are free to sin. We are created unto good works in Christ but this is a result of salvation not a requirement to maintain it. Believers do not stand before the great white throne judgment but before the judgment seat of Christ. The believers works are tried not his soul. Believers suffer the loss of rewards not their inheritance in heaven. Any works we do as believers is the direct result of the Holy Spirit ministering through us. The Holy Spirit never leaves those who have trusted Christ. We may grieve Him and not allow Him to work in our hearts but He cannot leave us.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Skinski7]

We are made new in Christ the old is passed away. 2 Cor 5:17

2Co 5:15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. We go from being a "servant of sin" (ie. living according to the lusts of the flesh) to being a "servant if righteousness" (ie. walking according to the leading of the Spirit).
2Co 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. This verse is in the context of verse 15, as well as what Paul writes in Romans chapter 6 and 8 in regards to being set free from sin and thus becoming a servant of righteousness. It is not forensic or positional in any way whatsoever but is an ACTUAL CHANGE because the HEART HAS BEEN MADE CLEAN (via faith Act 15:9 through the blood Heb 9:14)
2Co 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; Jesus reconciled the world to himself (see v. 19) thus giving us (the saints) the Ministry of Reconciliation by which sinners CAN BE reconciled to God through repentance and faith via the blood of Jesus Christ.
2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2Co 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. Being reconciled to God on an individual basis is not a done deal. One must meet the conditions or repentance and faith in order to be truly reconciled. Many false teachers ignore this verse and focus exclusively on verses 19 and 21 for they teach the heresy of salvation as PURELY POSITIONAL for they deny heart purity in salvation.
2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. We are made the righteousness of God IN Him for it is the Spirit of life IN Jesus Christ that we find salvation from sin (Rom 8:2).

Thus with the above in mind let's look at what you said...

We are no longer under the law we are under grace. I do not say that we are free to sin. We are created unto good works in Christ but this is a result of salvation not a requirement to maintain it.

You are viewing salvation as an abstract provision of having been set free from condemnation due to your perception that grace somehow cancels the righteous requirements of the law. This is error and I will explain to you why.

The righteous requirements of the law is still in full effect and those who are IN Christ FULFULL IT.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

In other words a Christian does not produce the fruit of righteousness because they are "under the law" in that they have to obey outward rules and regulations. No. A Christian is subservient to the leading of the Spirit which transforms the inner man and the righteousness thus flows from a heart that has been cleansed by God.

This is why Paul says things like...

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Righteousness is through ABIDING IN CHRIST not of following rules and regulations. This is very important to understand for it lays at the root of what it means to be "under grace."

The false teachers have twisted the meaning of grace via introducing the Penal Substitution view of the atonement (a Reformed doctrine which is only 400 years old) whereby salvation is purely a forensic legal transaction. In other words Jesus was punished in your place for your guilt was credited to Him and His innocence was credited to you.

What the Penal Substitution doctrine does is supplant the true message of the cross with a deception which does not address the issue of iniquity within the heart thus resulting in the denial of heart purity in a believer.

The truth is that Christ died for you so that you can die with Him. When you die with Him (through repentance and faith) His blood then purges your conscience from your previous rebellion to God thus enabling you to be reconciled to God and given a fresh start.

Penal Substitution perverts the death of Christ into being a cloak for ongoing rebellion. This is why those who uphold Penal Substitution will defend being able to "sin and not surely die." Out of one side of their mouth they profess "Jesus is Lord" whilst out of the other they deny His teachings and preach "Ye Can Disobey God and NOT surely die."

I can tell you have fallen for this deception at least in part because you say things like this...

Believers do not stand before the great white throne judgment but before the judgment seat of Christ. The believers works are tried not his soul. Believers suffer the loss of rewards not their inheritance in heaven. Any works we do as believers is the direct result of the Holy Spirit ministering through us. The Holy Spirit never leaves those who have trusted Christ. We may grieve Him and not allow Him to work in our hearts but He cannot leave us.

In one fell swoop you are teaching that what you do doesn't really matter in so far as obtaining the inheritance of eternal life. This is a stark denial of many scriptures like...

Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
Gal 6:9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

Eph 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
Eph 5:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Eph 5:7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

You are teaching that YOU CAN do those things that Paul listed and still inherit the kingdom.

Please believe the WHOLE COUNSEL of God and don't fall for those who isolate and proof text various verses completely out of their context.

 

[livingepistle]

"Why was Judas lost?" he had Salvation in the flesh just as did the other Eleven. Eternal security, I do not think so, unless someone can use scripture to explain away what happened to Judas. For all doubters, the thief (turned believer) on the cross and made it to paradise.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. 12] While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

 

[livingepistle]

So with all of this, is it enough simply to sin that makes you lose your salvation?
and 2: are we just talking about the 10 commandments? or other things that are considered sinful?

I view this as a good question. To answer your question, we must examine Judas.


John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. 12] While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Notice what type of sin Judas committed and you will have 50% of the answer.

 

[livingepistle]

Re: Do not Believe the Apostle's Doctrine !

Those who reject the biblical teaching of Eternal Security for the Believer, they do not believe Pauls words to some believers 2 Thess 3:3

3But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil.

Now its evil for one to depart from the Lord Heb 3:12

Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

So if one who truly believes can depart from God as desribed here, then Paul lied in 2 Thess 3:3, even moreso, God the Holy Spirit lied since He inspired Paul on what to write !

Please explain the following:

Acts 5:3-5, 5:7-10

3] But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? 4] Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God. 5] And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.

7] And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in. 8] And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much. 9] Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out. 10] Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband.

These people lost out with G-d for lying. Chances are they did not make it to heaven/paradise; "Please Explain" how this could happen to two believers?"

After considering these two please explain Judas; please.

 

[livingepistle]

Re: Do not Believe the Apostle's Doctrine !

Those who reject the biblical teaching of Eternal Security for the Believer, they do not believe Pauls words to some believers 2 Thess 3:3

3But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil.

Now its evil for one to depart from the Lord Heb 3:12

Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

So if one who truly believes can depart from God as desribed here, then Paul lied in 2 Thess 3:3, even moreso, God the Holy Spirit lied since He inspired Paul on what to write !

Revelation 3:16-18

16] So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
17] Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
18] I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

"Who is Jesus spewing (rejecting) out of his mouth?" and this has nothing to do with rewards.

 

[starfield]

Re: Do not Believe the Apostle's Doctrine !

Please explain the following:

Acts 5:3-5, 5:7-10

3] But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? 4] Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God. 5] And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.

7] And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in. 8] And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much. 9] Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out. 10] Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband.

These people lost out with G-d for lying. Chances are they did not make it to heaven/paradise; "Please Explain" how this could happen to two believers?"

After considering these two please explain Judas; please.

You have brought up an interesting point. I must warn you though that some proponents of this doctrine will not hesitate to say that Ananias and Sapphira died in a justified state since they were once saved. In essence, if the believer sins so badly God may terminate their life and take them to heaven early for rebelling against Him so that they won't be able to sin anymore.

 

[svedbygrace]

Re: Do not Believe the Apostle's Doctrine !

Please explain the following:

Acts 5:3-5, 5:7-10

3] But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? 4] Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God. 5] And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.

7] And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in. 8] And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much. 9] Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out. 10] Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband.

These people lost out with G-d for lying. Chances are they did not make it to heaven/paradise; "Please Explain" how this could happen to two believers?"

After considering these two please explain Judas; please.

You quoted post 349 but then evaded my points. Please rehearse each point with me just so I know you understand them even though you may disagree with them. Thanks, looking forward to your participation !