Two category's that must be kept separate JUSTIFICATION - SANCTIFICATION

[FlyingDove]

Re "your AI is uninformed." What AI is that? I learned my information before AI was invented.

Re "Jesus defines the will of the Father for salvation in John 6:40: believe in the Son." Yes, John 6:40 is another way of stating GRFS.

Re "Everything else, repentance, obedience, love, endurance. Are the fruit of salvation, not the requirement for it." Perseverance in sanctification is required per Rom. 11:22, 1Cor. 15:2, Col. 1:22-23, 2Thes. 1:4-5, 2Tim. 2:12, Heb. 3:6&14, 10:35-36, Jam. 1:12, 2Pet. 1:10-11, 2:20, 1John 2:24-25 and Rev. 2:10.

Re "Matthew 7 condemns false believers (I never knew you), not believers who didn't obey enough." True, saints sin.

Re "Paul treats justification & sanctification as distinct works of God (1 Cor 6:11). Both are past tense, both are results of salvation & both are positional realities": Note that you used the present tense!

Re "God placing the believer into union with Christ (in Christ) at conversion. Justification is once‑for‑all & NOT ongoing.": I was raised to believe the P of TULIP as a Baptist, but then I read Rom. 11:22, 1Cor. 15:2, Col. 1:22-23, 2Thes. 1:4-5, 2Tim. 2:12, Heb. 3:6&14, 10:35-36, Jam. 1:12, 2Pet. 1:10-11, 2:20, 1John 2:24-25 and Rev. 2:10.

Re "Sanctification is both positional (completed at conversion) & progressive (the Holy Spirit’s ongoing work in the believer, carrying out the very purpose for which the believer was set apart)." True, and what I learned is that there is no qualitative difference between faith that accepts God’s saving grace at conversion and faith that accepts God’s working grace or motivates good works while walking/living (Eph. 2:8-10, 2Cor. 5:7), but only a quantitative difference as each additional moment passes–and of course faith remains non-meritorious during the saint’s entire lifetime (Rom. 1:17). IOW, the ability to do good works as well as have saving faith are both due to God’s grace. Saving faith is not mere belief (Jam. 2:19), but it is more accurate to view faith as will to action (MFW) or motivation rather than the action or work itself (Heb. 4:12-13, 11:6).

Re "The NT never teaches that obedience is the condition for receiving or maintaining eternal life. It teaches that obedience is the evidence of having received eternal life." On the contrary obeying the command of Jesus to repent aka have saving faith is the condition for entering heaven and for remaining there. Just ask Satan's angels who fell.

The passages you listed (Rom 11:22, 1 Cor 15:2, Col 1:22–23, 2 Thes 1:4–5, 2 Tim 2:12, Heb 3:6,14, Heb 10:35–36, James 1:12, 2 Pet 1:10–11; 2:20, 1 John 2:24–25 & Rev 2:10) are not teaching that obedience or perseverance maintain salvation. They are warning against the one thing that actually separates a person from salvation: unbelief. Every one of those texts is addressed to a mixed audience where some profess faith but do not possess it & the warnings function the same way Jesus' warnings do , to expose false faith, not to threaten the loss of true salvation.

Scripture is consistent: eternal life is given through believing in the Son (Jn 6:40) & those who truly believe are sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption (Eph 1:13–14 & Eph 4:30), kept by God's power (1 Pet 1:5), never cast out (Jn 6:37), never lost (Jn 10:28) & already passed from death to life (Jn 5:24).

Perseverance is the evidence of genuine faith, not the condition for keeping salvation. Paul treats justification & sanctification as distinct works of God (1 Cor 6:11): justification is once‑for‑all and not ongoing, while sanctification is both positional (completed at conversion) & progressive (the Holy Spirit's ongoing work in the believer).

The NT never teaches that obedience, repentance, or endurance maintain eternal life. It teaches that these are the fruit of having been born of God (1 Jn 2:29, 3:9–10). Even your own examples prove this: Satan's angels did not ""lose salvation"", they were never redeemed, never sealed, never indwelt, never justified & never placed in Christ. Their fall has nothing to do with a believer's security in Christ. The command to repent & believe is the condition for entering life, repent meaning a turn from unbelief to belief (Jn 16:9 & Acts 20:21). Everything that follow: obedience, love, endurance, is the result of the Holy Spirit's guiding work in those who have already been saved (Eph 2:10, Titus 2:11–14,\; Gal 5:22–23).

 

[studier]

GWH, your AI is uninformed.

Projection.

 

[hornetguy]

Everything else, repentance, obedience, love, endurance. Are the fruit of salvation, not the requirement for it.

I believe you are completely wrong on this.
"You believe that God is one; well and good. Even the demons believe that—and tremble with fear."

 

[mailmandan]

Walking in the light in 1 John 1:7 is NOT presented as the condition for receiving or maintaining eternal life, but as the evidence that someone already possesses it. John is writing to believers who already have eternal life (1 Jn 5:13), already know the Father (2:13) & are already ""in Him"" (2:5–6). When he says, If we walk in the light... the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin, the present tense cleansing (katharizei) describes the ongoing fellowship & experiential purification believers enjoy because they are already saved, not the means by which they become saved.

The contrast in 1 John is NOT between obedient Christians & disobedient Christians, but between those who know God & those who claim to know Him but walk in darkness (1 Jn 1:6 & 2:4). Walking in the light is the natural result of having been born of God (1 Jn 3:9), indwelt by the Holy Spirit (1 Jn 2:27) & brought into fellowship with the Father & the Son (1 Jn 1:3). It is the fruit of eternal life, not the basis of it.

The New Testament never teaches that obedience or walking in the light is the condition for receiving or maintaining eternal life. It consistently teaches that obedience is the evidence of having already received eternal life (Jn 10:27–28, Eph 2:8–10 & Titus 2:11–14).

If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

*Walking in darkness is DESCRIPTIVE of children of the devil. Walking in the light is DESCRIPTIVE of children of God. Only those who are saved/born again believers are in the light.

Acts 26:18 - to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.

2 Corinthians 6:14 - Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness?

Ephesians 5:8 - for you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light. Children of the devil walk in darkness, not in the light. Children of God walk in the light, not in darkness. IF confirms these positions in verses 6 and 7. It's one or the other.

In 1 John 2:9, we read - He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now. In vs. 11 - But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.

*Compare with 1 John 3:10 - In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, (compare with 1 John 1:6 - does not practice the truth) nor is he who does not love his brother.

*Notice that walks in darkness, hates his brother is DESCRIPTIVE of children of the devil.

 

[studier]

If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

*Walking in darkness is DESCRIPTIVE of children of the devil. Walking in the light is DESCRIPTIVE of children of God. Only those who are saved/born again believers are in the light.

Acts 26:18 - to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.

2 Corinthians 6:14 - Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness?

Ephesians 5:8 - for you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light. Children of the devil walk in darkness, not in the light. Children of God walk in the light, not in darkness. IF confirms these positions in verses 6 and 7. It's one or the other.

In 1 John 2:9, we read - He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now. In vs. 11 - But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.

*Compare with 1 John 3:10 - In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, (compare with 1 John 1:6 - does not practice the truth) nor is he who does not love his brother.

*Notice that walks in darkness, hates his brother is DESCRIPTIVE of children of the devil.

I've noticed how the more Free Grace sector of the Faith-Alone sector like this 'descriptive' vs. 'prescriptive' concept.

Ultimately it's because they both align in OSAS, so they need something to explain away conditional statements and commands.

Strange bedfellows these two sects, but not really - they're both monergistic at some point.

 

[GWH]

The passages you listed (Rom 11:22, 1 Cor 15:2, Col 1:22–23, 2 Thes 1:4–5, 2 Tim 2:12, Heb 3:6,14, Heb 10:35–36, James 1:12, 2 Pet 1:10–11; 2:20, 1 John 2:24–25 & Rev 2:10) are not teaching that obedience or perseverance maintain salvation. They are warning against the one thing that actually separates a person from salvation: unbelief. Every one of those texts is addressed to a mixed audience where some profess faith but do not possess it & the warnings function the same way Jesus' warnings do , to expose false faith, not to threaten the loss of true salvation.

Scripture is consistent: eternal life is given through believing in the Son (Jn 6:40) & those who truly believe are sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption (Eph 1:13–14 & Eph 4:30), kept by God's power (1 Pet 1:5), never cast out (Jn 6:37), never lost (Jn 10:28) & already passed from death to life (Jn 5:24).

Perseverance is the evidence of genuine faith, not the condition for keeping salvation. Paul treats justification & sanctification as distinct works of God (1 Cor 6:11): justification is once‑for‑all and not ongoing, while sanctification is both positional (completed at conversion) & progressive (the Holy Spirit's ongoing work in the believer).

The NT never teaches that obedience, repentance, or endurance maintain eternal life. It teaches that these are the fruit of having been born of God (1 Jn 2:29, 3:9–10). Even your own examples prove this: Satan's angels did not ""lose salvation"", they were never redeemed, never sealed, never indwelt, never justified & never placed in Christ. Their fall has nothing to do with a believer's security in Christ. The command to repent & believe is the condition for entering life, repent meaning a turn from unbelief to belief (Jn 16:9 & Acts 20:21). Everything that follow: obedience, love, endurance, is the result of the Holy Spirit's guiding work in those who have already been saved (Eph 2:10, Titus 2:11–14,\; Gal 5:22–23).

You - your AI is uninformed. Me - What AI is that? I learned my information before AI was invented.
You - The passages you listed (Rom 11:22, 1 Cor 15:2, Col 1:22–23, 2 Thes 1:4–5, 2 Tim 2:12, Heb 3:6,14, Heb 10:35–36, James 1:12, 2 Pet 1:10–11; 2:20, 1 John 2:24–25 & Rev 2:10) are not teaching that obedience or perseverance maintain salvation. Me - GW is not AI. Here is what they teach:

Matt. 10:22, “All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.” [Back-sliding is the opposite of standing firm or persevering, cf. Jer. 2:19, 3:22, 5:6, 14:7, 15:6 and Ezek. 37:23.]

Rom. 11:22, “Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.”

1Cor. 15:2, “By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.”

Gal. 5:4, “You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.”

Col. 1:22-23, “But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.”

2Thes. 1:4-5, “Therefore, among God’s churches we boast about your perseverance and faith in all the persecutions and trials you are enduring. All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering.”

2Tim. 2:12, “If we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us;”

Heb. 3:6&14, “But Christ is faithful as a son over God’s house. And we are his house, if we hold on to our courage and the hope of which we boast… We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.”

Heb. 6:4-6, “It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.” This passage indicates that apostasy may be viewed as total depravity or blasphemy against the HS (MT 12:31).

Heb. 10:26-36, “If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God… So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.”

Jam. 1:12, “Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.”

2Pet. 1:10-11, “Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.”

2Pet. 2:20, “If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.”

1John 2:24-25, “See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he promised us—even eternal life.”

Jude 21, “Keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.”

Rev. 2:10, “Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.”

In summary: Perseverance in justifying saving faith throughout the lifelong process of sanctification is required.

You - Paul treats justification & sanctification as distinct works of God (1 Cor 6:11). Both are past tense, both are results of salvation & both are positional realities. Me - Note that you used the present tense! You did not respond to this irony in your reply.

You - God placing the believer into union with Christ (in Christ) at conversion. Justification is once‑for‑all & NOT ongoing.
Me - I was raised to believe that, but as I read more of GW than what the SBC taught I learned that Paul's view of justification
(Eph. 2:8-9) assumed or included lifelong sanctification (Eph. 2:10). Salvation includes both conversion and progression, and
there is no qualitative difference between faith that accepts God’s saving grace at conversion and faith that accepts God’s working grace or motivates good works while walking/living, but only a quantitative difference as each additional moment passes–and of course faith remains non-meritorious during the saint’s entire lifetime.

You - Satan's angels did not ""lose salvation"", they were never redeemed, never sealed, never indwelt, never justified & never placed in Christ. Me- They also were never in hell until they fell, which seems like a loss to me.

You - Their fall has nothing to do with a believer's security in Christ.
Me - Actually, it may have everything to do with God's plan of salvation for humans. It shows that being in heaven from the start does not guarantee eternal bliss.

You - The command to repent & believe is the condition for entering life, repent meaning a turn from unbelief to belief.
Me - Yes, turning from disbelief and not returning to unbelief. IOW, perseverance is needed.

 

[FlyingDove]

I believe you are completely wrong on this.
"You believe that God is one; well and good. Even the demons believe that—and tremble with fear."

You're free to believe whatever you choose, as am I. Saving faith is trusting the Son (John 6:40) & everyone who trusts Him is sealed by the Holy Spirit & given eternal life (Eph 1:13–14 & Jn 10:28).

Obedience, love & good works are the fruit of salvation that's given freely through faith alone (Eph 2:8) & NOT the requirement for it. Scripture consistently treats good works as the basis for rewards (Matt 10:42, Matt 19:28, 1 Cor 3:12–15 & Rev 22:12), never as the basis for receiving or keeping eternal life (Jn 10:28 & Eph 1:13–14).

Demons fear because they have no possibility of salvation. Your free to live in trembling fear. I live in joy & thanks giving looking forward to the Blessed Hope & the glorious appearing of the great God & our Savior Jesus the Christ. Amen

 

[FlyingDove]

Matt. 10:22, “All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.” [Back-sliding is the opposite of standing firm or persevering, cf. Jer. 2:19, 3:22, 5:6, 14:7, 15:6 and Ezek. 37:23.]

Rom. 11:22, “Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.”

1Cor. 15:2, “By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.”

Gal. 5:4, “You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.”

Col. 1:22-23, “But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.”

2Thes. 1:4-5, “Therefore, among God’s churches we boast about your perseverance and faith in all the persecutions and trials you are enduring. All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering.”

2Tim. 2:12, “If we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us;”

Heb. 3:6&14, “But Christ is faithful as a son over God’s house. And we are his house, if we hold on to our courage and the hope of which we boast… We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.”

Heb. 6:4-6, “It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.” This passage indicates that apostasy may be viewed as total depravity or blasphemy against the HS (MT 12:31).

Heb. 10:26-36, “If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God… So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.”

Jam. 1:12, “Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.”

2Pet. 1:10-11, “Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.”

2Pet. 2:20, “If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.”
ou - The command to repent & believe is the condition for entering life, repent meaning a turn from unbelief to belief.
Me - Yes, turning from disbelief and not returning to unbelief. IOW, perseverance is needed.

JOHN
Jn 3:36 (A) 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life:
(MY NOTE: Anyone that places their FAITH in the Son HAS ALREADY/RIGHT NOW eternal life)

Jn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
(MY NOTE: He that has FAITH in Christ & believes the Father sent Him "HAS" < present tense > ETERNAL LIFE.)

Jn 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
(MY NOTE: Whoever has FAITH in Christ: HAS eternal life)

Jn 14:
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
MY NOTE: Believers in the Son will be "given" the Holy Spirit. Who will ABIBE with you FOREVER)

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
(MY NOTE: The HOLY Spirit of Truth GIVEN to ALL believers DWELLS & REMAINS in them)

1 Jn 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God..
(MY NOTE: John writes, those who BELIEVE in the Son of God ALREADY HAVE eternal life)

LUKE & PETER:
Acts 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
(MY NOTE: The Holy Spirit falls on these gentiles, void of any works/strings beyond FAITH)

45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
(MY NOTE: Thru FAITH ALONE these gentiles received the free gift of God's eternally indwelling, salvation sealing Holy Spirit.)

Acts 11:
16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost..’
(MY NOTE: Only Christ can baptize with His salvation sealing, eternal life giving Holy Spirit)

17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
(MY NOTE: Gentiles that believed/had FAITH in the Lord Jesus Christ. FREELY received Christ's salvation sealing Holy Spirit baptism/GIFT/Acts 10:45, 11:17!)

Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
MY NOTE: These gentiles BELIEVED & were ORDAINED to eternal life)

Acts 15:
8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
(MY NOTE: Christ knows every persons true heart & GAVE these gentiles His salvation sealing, eternal life giving Holy Spirit. Next verse by cites by FAITH ALONE!)

9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
(MY NOTE: Thru FAITH ALONE these BELIEVING were PURIFIED/CLEASNED when GIVEN Christ's eternal life giving Holy Spirit, thru FAITH ALOVE)

PAUL:
Rom 5:
5 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
(MY NOTE: We = BELIEVERS - Rom 1:7 - Have been <past tense > justified = Judicially declared/pronounced righteous by a sovereign creator Godthru/by FAITH)

Rom 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
(MY NOTE: Jesus the justifier; Judicially declared/pronounced the believer righteous thru FAITH ALONE)

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
(MY NOTE: He that believes on Jesus, the justifier. Thru FAITH ALONE is pronounced righteous/placed in a right standing with God the Father).

Eph 2:
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
(MY NOTE: Salvation is accessed by Grace thru FAITH)

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
(MY NOTE: No self-works requirements allowed)

Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
(MY NOTE: It's Christ that's able to keep you, not our self-works)

1 Jn 2:12 I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake.
(MY NOTE: Believers you ARE forgiven (NOT just until your next sin) for Christ's name's sake, because He paid for ALL the believrs sins)

Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
(MY NOTE: Christ via the offering of his own sinless blood, entered once into heaven holy place & obtained ETERNAL REDEMPTION for us.)

Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
(MY NOTE: Christ sinless payment REDEEMED believers/saints from Mosaic law sin punishment & has obtained scriptures promise of an ETERNAL inheritance)

Heb 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
(NOTE: This new Christ administered order of Melchizedek sin management blood covenant is EVERLASTING!)

Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
(MY NOTE: Christ PERFECTED FOREVER those that are sanctified)

Ps 37:28 For the Lord loves justice, And does not forsake His saints; They are preserved forever, But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off.
(MY NOTE: The Lord doesn't forsake His saints/believers, but, PRESERVES them FOREVER!)

If a person is sealed by the Holy Spirit (Eph 1:13–14 & Eph 4:30), born of God (Jn 1:13), made a new creation (2 Cor 5:17), given a new heart (Rom 2:29), indwelt by the Holy Spirit (Rom 8:9) & kept by God's power (1 Pet 1:5), then returning to unbelief is impossible. Unbelief is the condition of the unregenerate, not the regenerate. The warnings you listed expose false faith, they do not describe the loss of true salvation. A sealed believer cannot go back to unbelief any more than a person can ""un‑re born."" Perseverance is the evidence of life, not the condition for keeping it.

 

[FlyingDove]

The question is answered throughout the NC and the will of the Father is John6:40 and more.

Your system is to limit Scripture to not include all it says about God's will in this case.

Obedience is also included in believing the Gospel because believing the Gospel is commanded and because according to the NC writers and to a Hebrew concept of believing, there is no faith apart from obedience.

Your Faith-Alone system is a disaster.

Obedience, love & good works are the Holy Spirit's sanctifying fruits in the life of someone who has already been saved through faith alone (Eph 2:8). Good works the result of salvation, not the requirement for it. Scripture consistently treats good works as the basis for rewards (Matt 10:42, Matt 19:28, 1 Cor 3:12–15 & Rev 22:12), never as the basis for receiving, keeping, or maintaining eternal life (Jn 10:28 & Eph 1:13–14).

Paul says Christ GAVE Himself for our sins... according to the will of God & our Father (Gal 1:3–4) & Jesus defines that will with absolute clarity: This is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son & believes in Him may have everlasting life. (Jn 6:40)

Saving faith is trusting the Son (Jn 6:40) & everyone who trusts Him is sealed by the Holy Spirit & GIVEN eternal life (Eph 1:13–14, & Jn 10:28). When a person calls on the Lord Jesus for forgiveness & believes in His finished sin atoning work & resurrection. God, who alone knows the true heart (Rev 2:23, John 2:24-25 & Matt 15:18) baptizes that believer with the Holy Spirit (Matt 3:11 & Lk 3:16) & places them into union with Christ (In-Christ). At that moment, Christ takes the believer's sin upon Himself (1 Pet 3:18 & 1 Cor 15:3), grants full pardon & imputes His righteousness to them so that we ""become the righteousness of God in Him"" (2 Cor 5:21).

Paul emphasizes that justification is entirely apart from works: To the one who does not work but believes..... his faith is counted as righteousness (Rom 4:5). God imputes righteousness apart from works (Rom 4:6) & ""the Lord will not impute sin"" to the justified (Rom 4:8). Justification is therefore a completed, past tense act of God. A positional reality given at conversion & NOT an ongoing process or a transformation produced by human effort.

Paul's warning still stands:
Even if we or an angel from heaven preach any other gospel... let him be accursed. (Gal 1:8). I'll stay with the gospel Jesus preached & Paul defended. Eternal life received by faith & the life that follows produces obedience.

 

[GWH]

Jn 3:36 (A) 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life:
(YOUR NOTE: Anyone that places their FAITH in the Son HAS ALREADY/RIGHT NOW eternal life)
[My note: Anyone who believes on the Son/in Jesus as Lord has eternal life.]

Jn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. (YOUR NOTE: He that has FAITH in Christ & believes the Father sent Him "HAS" < present tense > ETERNAL LIFE.) [My note: Anyone who believes on the Son/in Jesus as Lord has eternal life.]

Jn 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. (YOUR NOTE: Whoever has FAITH in Christ: HAS eternal life) [My note: Anyone who believes on the Son/in Jesus as Lord has eternal life.]

Jn 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; (YOUR NOTE: Believers in the Son will be "given" the Holy Spirit. Who will ABIBE with you FOREVER) [My note: Anyone who believes on the Son/in Jesus as Lord has the HS.]

Jn 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. (YOUR NOTE: The HOLY Spirit of Truth GIVEN to ALL believers DWELLS & REMAINS in them)
[My note: Anyone who believes on the Son/in Jesus as Lord has the HS.]

1 Jn 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.. (MY NOTE: John writes, those who BELIEVE in the Son of God ALREADY HAVE eternal life) [My note: Anyone who believes on the Son/in Jesus as Lord has eternal life.]

LUKE & PETER:
Acts 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. (YOUR NOTE: The Holy Spirit falls on these gentiles, void of any works/strings beyond FAITH) [My note: Anyone who believes on the Son/in Jesus as Lord has the HS.]

Acts 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. (YOUR NOTE: Thru FAITH ALONE these gentiles received the free gift of God's eternally indwelling, salvation sealing Holy Spirit.) [My note: Anyone who believes on the Son/in Jesus as Lord has the HS.]

Acts 11:
16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost..’ (YOUR NOTE: Only Christ can baptize with His salvation sealing, eternal life giving Holy Spirit) [My note: Anyone who believes on the Son/in Jesus as Lord is baptized with the HS.]

17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God? (YOUR NOTE: Gentiles that believed/had FAITH in the Lord Jesus Christ. FREELY received Christ's salvation sealing Holy Spirit baptism/GIFT/Acts 10:45, 11:17!) [My note: Anyone who believes on the Son/in Jesus as Lord has eternal life/the HS.]

Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. (YOUR NOTE: These gentiles BELIEVED & were ORDAINED to eternal life) [My note: Anyone who believes on the Son/in Jesus as Lord has eternal life.]

Acts 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; (YOUR NOTE: Christ knows every persons true heart & GAVE these gentiles His salvation sealing, eternal life giving Holy Spirit. Next verse by cites by FAITH ALONE!) [My note: Anyone who believes on the Son/in Jesus as Lord has eternal life/the HS.]

Acts 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. (YOUR NOTE: Thru FAITH ALONE these BELIEVING were PURIFIED/CLEASNED when GIVEN Christ's eternal life giving Holy Spirit, thru FAITH ALOVE) [My note: Anyone who believes on the Son/in Jesus as Lord has eternal life.]

PAUL:
Rom 5:5 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: (YOUR NOTE: We = BELIEVERS - Rom 1:7 - Have been <past tense > justified = Judicially declared/pronounced righteous by a sovereign creator God thru/by FAITH) [My note: Anyone who believes on the Son/in Jesus as Lord has eternal life.]

Rom 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
(YOUR NOTE: Jesus the justifier; Judicially declared/pronounced the believer righteous thru FAITH ALONE) [My note: Anyone who believes on the Son/in Jesus as Lord has been justified by Jesus.]

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
(YOUR NOTE: He that believes on Jesus, the justifier. Thru FAITH ALONE is pronounced righteous/placed in a right standing with God the Father). [My note: Anyone who believes on the Son/in Jesus as Lord is counted as righteous.]

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: (YOUR NOTE: Salvation is accessed by Grace thru FAITH) [My note: Anyone who believes on the Son/in Jesus as Lord has eternal life.]

Eph. 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. (YOUR NOTE: No self-works requirements allowed) [My note: Salvation cannot be earned by doing enough good works, because perfection is required and all have sinned]

Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, (YOUR NOTE: It's Christ that's able to keep you, not our self-works) [My note: Anyone who keeps on believing on the Son/in Jesus as Lord has eternal life.]

1 Jn 2:12 I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake. (YOUR NOTE: Believers you ARE forgiven (NOT just until your next sin) for Christ's name's sake, because He paid for ALL the believers sins) [My note: Anyone who believes on the Son/in Jesus as Lord has forgiveness of sin.]

Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. (YOUR NOTE: Christ via the offering of his own sinless blood, entered once into heaven holy place & obtained ETERNAL REDEMPTION for us.) [My note: Anyone who believes on the Son/in Jesus as Lord has been redeemed by the blood/death/atonement of the Lamb.]

Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
(YOUR NOTE: Christ sinless payment REDEEMED believers/saints from Mosaic law sin punishment & has obtained scriptures promise of an ETERNAL inheritance) [My note: Anyone who believes on the Son/in Jesus as Lord has the promise of eternal life.]

Heb 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, (YOUR NOTE: This new Christ administered order of Melchizedek sin management blood covenant is EVERLASTING!) [My note: I agree.]

Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. (YOUR NOTE: Christ PERFECTED FOREVER those that are sanctified) [My note: Do not ignore Scripture such as Heb. 10:23-39]

Ps 37:28 For the Lord loves justice, And does not forsake His saints; They are preserved forever, But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off. (YOUR NOTE: The Lord doesn't forsake His saints/believers, but, PRESERVES them FOREVER!) [Assuming they want to be preserved per Heb. 10:23-39, etc.]

YOU - If a person is sealed by the Holy Spirit (Eph 1:13–14 & Eph 4:30), born of God (Jn 1:13), made a new creation (2 Cor 5:17), given a new heart (Rom 2:29), indwelt by the Holy Spirit (Rom 8:9) & kept by God's power (1 Pet 1:5), then returning to unbelief is impossible.

GW: Rom. 11:22, 1Cor. 15:2, Col. 1:22-23, 2Thes. 1:4-5, 2Tim. 2:12, Heb. 3:6&14, 10:35-36, Jam. 1:12, 2Pet. 1:10-11, 2:20, 1John 2:24-25 and Rev. 2:10.

YOU - Unbelief is the condition of the unregenerate, not the regenerate. The warnings you listed expose false faith, they do not describe the loss of true salvation. A sealed believer cannot go back to unbelief any more than a person can ""un‑re born.""

Me - If what you say is true, then a person cannot be confident that they are regenerate or sealed until they die without having committed apostasy.

You - Perseverance is the evidence of life, not the condition for keeping it.

Me - There is no qualitative difference between faith that accepts God’s saving grace at conversion and faith that accepts God’s working grace or motivates good works while walking/living (Eph. 2:8-10, 2Cor. 5:7), but only a quantitative difference as each additional moment passes–and of course faith remains non-meritorious during the saint’s entire lifetime (Rom. 1:17). IOW, the ability to do good works as well as have saving faith are both due to God’s grace. Saving faith is not mere belief (Jam. 2:19), but it is more accurate to view faith as will to action (MFW) or motivation rather than the action or work itself (Heb. 4:12-13, 11:6).

 

[studier]

Obedience, love & good works are the Holy Spirit's sanctifying fruits in the life of someone who has already been saved through faith alone (Eph 2:8).

Partially correct but faith alone without obedience is a farce and thus made optional instead of being part of initial and ongoing salvation.

Good works are also intrinsic to Faith and are thus not optional for rewards only.

The whole soteriology is fundamentally flawed at the foundation.

You'll note I don't continue with your posts. The flaw is at the beginning and generally carried through out. No need to post lengthy posts to me but they look like they're repeated copy and paste versions, so do carry on.

 

[FlyingDove]

Jn 3:36 (A) 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life:
(YOUR NOTE: Anyone that places their FAITH in the Son HAS ALREADY/RIGHT NOW eternal life)
[My note: Anyone who believes on the Son/in Jesus as Lord has eternal life.]

Jn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. (YOUR NOTE: He that has FAITH in Christ & believes the Father sent Him "HAS" < present tense > ETERNAL LIFE.) [My note: Anyone who believes on the Son/in Jesus as Lord has eternal life.]

Jn 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. (YOUR NOTE: Whoever has FAITH in Christ: HAS eternal life) [My note: Anyone who believes on the Son/in Jesus as Lord has eternal life.]

Jn 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; (YOUR NOTE: Believers in the Son will be "given" the Holy Spirit. Who will ABIBE with you FOREVER) [My note: Anyone who believes on the Son/in Jesus as Lord has the HS.]

Jn 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. (YOUR NOTE: The HOLY Spirit of Truth GIVEN to ALL believers DWELLS & REMAINS in them)
[My note: Anyone who believes on the Son/in Jesus as Lord has the HS.]

1 Jn 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.. (MY NOTE: John writes, those who BELIEVE in the Son of God ALREADY HAVE eternal life) [My note: Anyone who believes on the Son/in Jesus as Lord has eternal life.]

LUKE & PETER:
Acts 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. (YOUR NOTE: The Holy Spirit falls on these gentiles, void of any works/strings beyond FAITH) [My note: Anyone who believes on the Son/in Jesus as Lord has the HS.]

Acts 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. (YOUR NOTE: Thru FAITH ALONE these gentiles received the free gift of God's eternally indwelling, salvation sealing Holy Spirit.) [My note: Anyone who believes on the Son/in Jesus as Lord has the HS.]

Acts 11:
16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost..’ (YOUR NOTE: Only Christ can baptize with His salvation sealing, eternal life giving Holy Spirit) [My note: Anyone who believes on the Son/in Jesus as Lord is baptized with the HS.]

17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God? (YOUR NOTE: Gentiles that believed/had FAITH in the Lord Jesus Christ. FREELY received Christ's salvation sealing Holy Spirit baptism/GIFT/Acts 10:45, 11:17!) [My note: Anyone who believes on the Son/in Jesus as Lord has eternal life/the HS.]

Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. (YOUR NOTE: These gentiles BELIEVED & were ORDAINED to eternal life) [My note: Anyone who believes on the Son/in Jesus as Lord has eternal life.]

Acts 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; (YOUR NOTE: Christ knows every persons true heart & GAVE these gentiles His salvation sealing, eternal life giving Holy Spirit. Next verse by cites by FAITH ALONE!) [My note: Anyone who believes on the Son/in Jesus as Lord has eternal life/the HS.]

Acts 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. (YOUR NOTE: Thru FAITH ALONE these BELIEVING were PURIFIED/CLEASNED when GIVEN Christ's eternal life giving Holy Spirit, thru FAITH ALOVE) [My note: Anyone who believes on the Son/in Jesus as Lord has eternal life.]

PAUL:
Rom 5:5 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: (YOUR NOTE: We = BELIEVERS - Rom 1:7 - Have been <past tense > justified = Judicially declared/pronounced righteous by a sovereign creator God thru/by FAITH) [My note: Anyone who believes on the Son/in Jesus as Lord has eternal life.]

Rom 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
(YOUR NOTE: Jesus the justifier; Judicially declared/pronounced the believer righteous thru FAITH ALONE) [My note: Anyone who believes on the Son/in Jesus as Lord has been justified by Jesus.]

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
(YOUR NOTE: He that believes on Jesus, the justifier. Thru FAITH ALONE is pronounced righteous/placed in a right standing with God the Father). [My note: Anyone who believes on the Son/in Jesus as Lord is counted as righteous.]

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: (YOUR NOTE: Salvation is accessed by Grace thru FAITH) [My note: Anyone who believes on the Son/in Jesus as Lord has eternal life.]

Eph. 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. (YOUR NOTE: No self-works requirements allowed) [My note: Salvation cannot be earned by doing enough good works, because perfection is required and all have sinned]

Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, (YOUR NOTE: It's Christ that's able to keep you, not our self-works) [My note: Anyone who keeps on believing on the Son/in Jesus as Lord has eternal life.]

Scripture never treats faith as ""will‑to‑action,"" ""motivation,"" or ""obedience in seed form."" It treats faith as trust in the Son & the moment a person believes, God justifies, seals, indwells & regenerates them (Jn 6:40, Eph 1:13–14 & Titus 3:5).

Heb 10, It's a congregational exhortation, not a doctrinal statement about the nature of regeneration. The author uses we, us AND you broadly, because he is addressing the entire assembly, not diagnosing the spiritual state of each individual. This passage is not describing regenerate people losing salvation. It is describing professing Jews in a mixed congregation who were in danger of abandoning Christ & returning to the Temple sacrifices to escape persecution. That rejection of Christ doesn't turn a regenerate person into an unregenerate one. It exposes that they were never regenerate in the 1st place. You cannot be ""perfected forever"", ""forgiven forever"" & ""granted bold access to God (Heb 10:14–19) & then lose ETERNAL salvation 10 verses later.

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us (1 Jn 2:19). The warnings expose false faith & they do not describe the loss of true salvation.

Universal Salvation Formula
Acts 10 is where Jesus Himself shows how He saves under the New Covenant apart from Jewish rituals. This is the 1st time the gospel goes to Gentiles & faith alone required. NO circumcision, NO obedience test, NO perseverance requirement, NO repentance formula. Cornelius didn't have to ""turn from personal sins"" to qualify for salvation, he had already repented from unbelief to belief in God (Acts 10:2) but had never heard the gospel of Jesus Christ. When he heard it, he believed it & ""while Peter was still speaking"" Jesus who knows everyone's heart (Rev 2:23, Jn 2:24-25, Matt 15:18) Holy Spirit baptized on all who heard the word (Acts 10:44).

This is the universal salvation pattern Jesus Himself implemented: Hear > Believe > Receive the Holy Spirit.

The New Covenant began at Pentecost (Acts 2) when the Holy Spirit was poured out onto Jews Only! But Acts 10 is the moment salvation is opened to Jew & Gentile alike, when the ""twain are made one"" & the Body of Christ begins.

Paul's warning fits perfectly here: if anyone preaches a different salvation pattern than the one Jesus revealed, let him be accursed (Gal 1:8–9). I'm staying with the salvation formula Jesus himself publicly instituted in Acts 10, not a system that adds conditions He never required.

 

[GWH]

Scripture never treats faith as ""will‑to‑action,"" ""motivation,"" or ""obedience in seed form."" It treats faith as trust in the Son & the moment a person believes, God justifies, seals, indwells & regenerates them (Jn 6:40, Eph 1:13–14 & Titus 3:5).

Heb 10, It's a congregational exhortation, not a doctrinal statement about the nature of regeneration. The author uses we, us AND you broadly, because he is addressing the entire assembly, not diagnosing the spiritual state of each individual. This passage is not describing regenerate people losing salvation. It is describing professing Jews in a mixed congregation who were in danger of abandoning Christ & returning to the Temple sacrifices to escape persecution. That rejection of Christ doesn't turn a regenerate person into an unregenerate one. It exposes that they were never regenerate in the 1st place. You cannot be ""perfected forever"", ""forgiven forever"" & ""granted bold access to God (Heb 10:14–19) & then lose ETERNAL salvation 10 verses later.

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us (1 Jn 2:19). The warnings expose false faith & they do not describe the loss of true salvation.

Universal Salvation Formula
Acts 10 is where Jesus Himself shows how He saves under the New Covenant apart from Jewish rituals. This is the 1st time the gospel goes to Gentiles & faith alone required. NO circumcision, NO obedience test, NO perseverance requirement, NO repentance formula. Cornelius didn't have to ""turn from personal sins"" to qualify for salvation, he had already repented from unbelief to belief in God (Acts 10:2) but had never heard the gospel of Jesus Christ. When he heard it, he believed it & ""while Peter was still speaking"" Jesus who knows everyone's heart (Rev 2:23, Jn 2:24-25, Matt 15:18) Holy Spirit baptized on all who heard the word (Acts 10:44).

This is the universal salvation pattern Jesus Himself implemented: Hear > Believe > Receive the Holy Spirit.

The New Covenant began at Pentecost (Acts 2) when the Holy Spirit was poured out onto Jews Only! But Acts 10 is the moment salvation is opened to Jew & Gentile alike, when the ""twain are made one"" & the Body of Christ begins.

Paul's warning fits perfectly here: if anyone preaches a different salvation pattern than the one Jesus revealed, let him be accursed (Gal 1:8–9). I'm staying with the salvation formula Jesus himself publicly instituted in Acts 10, not a system that adds conditions He never required.

Scripture treats saving faith as including the following:

Matt. 10:22, “All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.” [Back-sliding is the opposite of standing firm or persevering, cf. Jer. 2:19, 3:22, 5:6, 14:7, 15:6 and Ezek. 37:23.]

Rom. 11:22, “Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.”

1Cor. 15:2, “By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.”

Gal. 5:4, “You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.”

Col. 1:22-23, “But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.”

2Thes. 1:4-5, “Therefore, among God’s churches we boast about your perseverance and faith in all the persecutions and trials you are enduring. All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering.”

2Tim. 2:12, “If we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us;”

Heb. 3:6&14, “But Christ is faithful as a son over God’s house. And we are his house, if we hold on to our courage and the hope of which we boast… We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.”

Heb. 6:4-6, “It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.” This passage indicates that apostasy may be viewed as total depravity or blasphemy against the HS (MT 12:31).

Heb. 10:26-36, “If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God… So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.”

Jam. 1:12, “Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.”

2Pet. 1:10-11, “Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.”

2Pet. 2:20, “If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.”

1John 2:24-25, “See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he promised us—even eternal life.”

Jude 21, “Keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.”

Rev. 2:10, “Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.”

These have nothing to do with "congregational exhortation".

Regarding leftovers you have not yet addressed:

There is no qualitative difference between faith that accepts God’s saving grace at conversion and faith that accepts God’s working grace or motivates good works while walking/living (Eph. 2:8-10, 2Cor. 5:7), but only a quantitative difference as each additional moment passes–and of course faith remains non-meritorious during the saint’s entire lifetime (Rom. 1:17). IOW, the ability to do good works as well as have saving faith are both due to God’s grace. Saving faith is not mere belief (Jam. 2:19), but it is more accurate to view faith as will to action (MFW) or motivation rather than the action or work itself (Heb. 4:12-13, 11:6).

Obeying the command of Jesus to repent aka have saving faith is the condition for entering heaven and for remaining there.

Over...

 

[FlyingDove]

Partially correct but faith alone without obedience is a farce and thus made optional instead of being part of initial and ongoing salvation.

Good works are also intrinsic to Faith and are thus not optional for rewards only.

The whole soteriology is fundamentally flawed at the foundation.

You'll note I don't continue with your posts. The flaw is at the beginning and generally carried through out. No need to post lengthy posts to me but they look like they're repeated copy and paste versions, so do carry on.

Scripture never treats faith as ""will‑to‑action,"" ""motivation,"" or ""obedience in seed form."" It treats faith as trust in the Son/Savior & the moment a person believes, Jesus justifies, seals, indwells & regenerates them (Jn 6:40, Eph 1:13–14 & Titus 3:5). Paul reinforces this category distinction explicitly in 1 Cor 6:11, where he separates the ""divine acts done"" ""to the believer"", you are washed, you are sanctified, you are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus & by the Holy Spirit. These are distinct, completed realities & NOT a blended process. That's why believing is the only condition for justification & obedience is sanctification's fruit. Justification is God’s once‑for‑all legal declaration (Rom 4:5–8), while sanctification is the Holy Spirit's ongoing work guiding those already saved (Eph 2:10 & Titus 3:8). Blending these categories is what collapses the gospel, keeping them distinct is what preserves it.

You keep asserting faith plus obedience,"" but that's the very point in dispute. Scripture never defines faith as obedience, nor obedience as a condition for receiving or maintaining eternal life. You're importing that definition into the text, not deriving it from the text. And honestly, if I were promoting a system that needed works smuggled into salvation passages, I'd probably duck out too - because the moment you let Jesus & Paul define faith (Jn 6:40 & Eph 2:8), the whole ""faith plus this, plus that"" framework collapses under its own weight.

 

[FlyingDove]

These have nothing to do with "congregational exhortation".

Regarding leftovers you have not yet addressed:

There is no qualitative difference between faith that accepts God’s saving grace at conversion and faith that accepts God’s working grace or motivates good works while walking/living (Eph. 2:8-10, 2Cor. 5:7), but only a quantitative difference as each additional moment passes–and of course faith remains non-meritorious during the saint’s entire lifetime (Rom. 1:17). IOW, the ability to do good works as well as have saving faith are both due to God’s grace. Saving faith is not mere belief (Jam. 2:19), but it is more accurate to view faith as will to action (MFW) or motivation rather than the action or work itself (Heb. 4:12-13, 11:6).

Obeying the command of Jesus to repent aka have saving faith is the condition for entering heaven and for remaining there.

Here is my reply you just replied to:
Scripture never treats faith as ""will‑to‑action,"" or ""obedience in seed form."" It treats faith as trust in the Son & the moment a person believes, God justifies, seals, indwells & regenerates them (Jn 6:40, Eph 1:13–14 & Titus 3:5).

Universal Salvation Formula
Acts 10 is where Jesus Himself shows how He saves under the New Covenant apart from Jewish rituals. This is the 1st time the gospel goes to Gentiles & faith alone required. NO circumcision, NO obedience test, NO perseverance requirement, NO repentance formula. Cornelius didn't have to ""turn from personal sins"" to qualify for salvation, he had already repented from unbelief to belief in God (Acts 10:2) but had never heard the gospel of Jesus Christ. When he heard it, he believed it & ""while Peter was still speaking"" Jesus who knows everyone's heart (Rev 2:23, Jn 2:24-25, Matt 15:18) Holy Spirit baptized on all who heard the word (Acts 10:44).

This is the universal salvation pattern Jesus Himself implemented: Hear > Believe > Receive the Holy Spirit.

The New Covenant began at Pentecost (Acts 2) when the Holy Spirit was poured out onto Jews Only! But Acts 10 is the moment salvation is opened to Jew & Gentile alike, when the ""twain are made one"" & the Body of Christ begins.

SO:

In that reply I already answered the categories you're now repeating. I opened by stating plainly that Scripture treats faith as trust in the Son & the moment a person believes, God justifies, seals, Holy Spirit indwells, regenerating the believer (Jn 6:40, Eph 1:13–14 & Titus 3:5). That alone dismantles your entire framework of - qualitative faith - repentance/faith and conditions for entering heaven. Because none of those categories appear in Scripture. They are theological imports, not biblical definitions.

Then I walked you through Acts 10, where Jesus Himself publicly demonstrates the salvation pattern for Gentiles: NO repentance formula - NO turning from personal sins - NO perseverance requirement - NO obedience test - NO covenant‑renewal language - NO Law & NO water.

Cornelius simply heard > believed & received the Holy Spirit while Peter was still speaking. That is Jesus Himself administering salvation. That is the universal pattern. That is the moment Jew & Gentile become one new man.

Everything you're asking again was already answered in the Acts 10 section of my reply that you ignored. If your system requires more than Jesus required, it's not the gospel.

As for the warning passages you listed you're free to tremble & live in fear under them if you want. That's your choice. I rejoice daily without fear because I BELIEVE: Jesus is my Lord & Savior, He died for my sins, was buried & rose on the 3 day (1 Cor 15:1-4) for my justification (Rom 4:25). That HE is the faithful One (Phil 2:8-11 & Rev 1:5), He is the obedient One (Rom 5:19) He is the one & only Savior (Acts 4:12, Jn 4:42 & Titus 2: 13-14) I am justified, sanctified & He is glorified. Nothing can separate me from His love (Rom 8:38-39) & nothing can snatch me from Him (Jn 10:28-29) Best wishes JJ

 

[GWH]

Here is my reply you just replied to:
Scripture never treats faith as ""will‑to‑action,"" or ""obedience in seed form."" It treats faith as trust in the Son & the moment a person believes, God justifies, seals, indwells & regenerates them (Jn 6:40, Eph 1:13–14 & Titus 3:5).

Universal Salvation Formula
Acts 10 is where Jesus Himself shows how He saves under the New Covenant apart from Jewish rituals. This is the 1st time the gospel goes to Gentiles & faith alone required. NO circumcision, NO obedience test, NO perseverance requirement, NO repentance formula. Cornelius didn't have to ""turn from personal sins"" to qualify for salvation, he had already repented from unbelief to belief in God (Acts 10:2) but had never heard the gospel of Jesus Christ. When he heard it, he believed it & ""while Peter was still speaking"" Jesus who knows everyone's heart (Rev 2:23, Jn 2:24-25, Matt 15:18) Holy Spirit baptized on all who heard the word (Acts 10:44).

This is the universal salvation pattern Jesus Himself implemented: Hear > Believe > Receive the Holy Spirit.

The New Covenant began at Pentecost (Acts 2) when the Holy Spirit was poured out onto Jews Only! But Acts 10 is the moment salvation is opened to Jew & Gentile alike, when the ""twain are made one"" & the Body of Christ begins.

SO:

In that reply I already answered the categories you're now repeating. I opened by stating plainly that Scripture treats faith as trust in the Son & the moment a person believes, God justifies, seals, Holy Spirit indwells, regenerating the believer (Jn 6:40, Eph 1:13–14 & Titus 3:5). That alone dismantles your entire framework of - qualitative faith - repentance/faith and conditions for entering heaven. Because none of those categories appear in Scripture. They are theological imports, not biblical definitions.

Then I walked you through Acts 10, where Jesus Himself publicly demonstrates the salvation pattern for Gentiles: NO repentance formula - NO turning from personal sins - NO perseverance requirement - NO obedience test - NO covenant‑renewal language - NO Law & NO water.

Cornelius simply heard > believed & received the Holy Spirit while Peter was still speaking. That is Jesus Himself administering salvation. That is the universal pattern. That is the moment Jew & Gentile become one new man.

Everything you're asking again was already answered in the Acts 10 section of my reply that you ignored. If your system requires more than Jesus required, it's not the gospel.

As for the warning passages you listed you're free to tremble & live in fear under them if you want. That's your choice. I rejoice daily without fear because I BELIEVE: Jesus is my Lord & Savior, He died for my sins, was buried & rose on the 3 day (1 Cor 15:1-4) for my justification (Rom 4:25). That HE is the faithful One (Phil 2:8-11 & Rev 1:5), He is the obedient One (Rom 5:19) He is the one & only Savior (Acts 4:12, Jn 4:42 & Titus 2: 13-14) I am justified, sanctified & He is glorified. Nothing can separate me from His love (Rom 8:38-39) & nothing can snatch me from Him (Jn 10:28-29) Best wishes JJ

On the contrary, GW frequently views faith as action or obedience as well as trust in the Son. I recently posted a list in another thread; let me know if you want me to post it here.

Yes, "the moment a person believes, God justifies, seals, indwells & regenerates them (Jn 6:40, Eph 1:13–14 & Titus 3:5)."

Yes, faith alone is required for salvation, but there is no qualitative difference between faith that accepts God’s saving grace at conversion and faith that accepts God’s working grace or motivates good works while walking/living (Eph. 2:8-10, 2Cor. 5:7), but only a quantitative difference as each additional moment passes–and of course faith remains non-meritorious during the saint’s entire lifetime (Rom. 1:17). IOW, the ability to do good works as well as have saving faith are both due to God’s grace. Saving faith is not mere belief (Jam. 2:19), but it is more accurate to view faith as will to action (MFW) or motivation rather than the action or work itself (Heb. 4:12-13, 11:6).

IOW, Hear > Believe > Receive the Holy Spirit > Cooperate with the HS.
It is you who dismantles by omitting/exporting Eph. 2:10, Gal. 5:6 & 22-23, etc. from the definition of faith.

As for the warning passages I listed, you're free to ignore them, but if you disobey them, then you should tremble in fear.
Jesus is your savior as long as you do not renounce him as your Lord.

Nothing can separate you from His love other than your own will to commit apostasy.
The need is to harmonize Rom 8:38-39 & (Jn 10:28-29 with the list I cited.
Do you want to go first?

 

[FlyingDove]

On the contrary, GW frequently views faith as action or obedience as well as trust in the Son. I recently posted a list in another thread; let me know if you want me to post it here.

Yes, "the moment a person believes, God justifies, seals, indwells & regenerates them (Jn 6:40, Eph 1:13–14 & Titus 3:5)."

Yes, faith alone is required for salvation, but there is no qualitative difference between faith that accepts God’s saving grace at conversion and faith that accepts God’s working grace or motivates good works while walking/living (Eph. 2:8-10, 2Cor. 5:7), but only a quantitative difference as each additional moment passes–and of course faith remains non-meritorious during the saint’s entire lifetime (Rom. 1:17). IOW, the ability to do good works as well as have saving faith are both due to God’s grace. Saving faith is not mere belief (Jam. 2:19), but it is more accurate to view faith as will to action (MFW) or motivation rather than the action or work itself (Heb. 4:12-13, 11:6).

IOW, Hear > Believe > Receive the Holy Spirit > Cooperate with the HS.
It is you who dismantles by omitting/exporting Eph. 2:10, Gal. 5:6 & 22-23, etc. from the definition of faith.

As for the warning passages I listed, you're free to ignore them, but if you disobey them, then you should tremble in fear.
Jesus is your savior as long as you do not renounce him as your Lord.

Nothing can separate you from His love other than your own will to commit apostasy.
The need is to harmonize Rom 8:38-39 & (Jn 10:28-29 with the list I cited.
Do you want to go first?

I'll address the new condition you've inserted: ""Jesus is your Savior as long as you do not renounce Him"". This is conditional security. Not supported by Rom 8, Jn 10, Acts 10 or Eph 1 I already shared. You're importing your system & trying to force the text to fit it.

More help:
Jn 14:16 Jesus says the Holy Spirit He indwells you with will abide with you FOREVER

2 Tim 1:14 Refers to the Holy Spirit as a Good Deposit

2 Cor 5:5, Eph 1:14 & 2 Cor 1:22. Refer to the Holy Spirit as "the earnest" = Deposit or Pledge

Eph 1:13, 2 Cor 1:22 & Eph 4:30 Refer to the Holy Spirit as an eternal Seal

I've already addressed rest of this reply in posts #212 & 215.

 

[GWH]

I'll address the new condition you've inserted: ""Jesus is your Savior as long as you do not renounce Him"". This is conditional security. Not supported by Rom 8, Jn 10, Acts 10 or Eph 1 I already shared. You're importing your system & trying to force the text to fit it.

More help:
Jn 14:16 Jesus says the Holy Spirit He indwells you with will abide with you FOREVER

2 Tim 1:14 Refers to the Holy Spirit as a Good Deposit

2 Cor 5:5, Eph 1:14 & 2 Cor 1:22. Refer to the Holy Spirit as "the earnest" = Deposit or Pledge

Eph 1:13, 2 Cor 1:22 & Eph 4:30 Refer to the Holy Spirit as an eternal Seal

I've already addressed rest of this reply in posts #212 & 215.

The condition is what the NT inserted per the verses cited previously: perseverance.
This is conditional security, just as salvation is conditional--on saving faith from first to last (Rom. 1:17).

I see that you made no attempt to harmonize Scriptures on this subject, so I will go first. Passages cited in support of predestination may be harmonized with those cited previously supporting moral free will and need for perseverance as follows:

1. John 10:27-29 – being “unsnatchable” does not disallow a person from choosing to jump out of the “Father’s hand”. Also, in John 6:37 “never drive away” does not mean a person cannot go away, and in John 6:39 “I shall lose none” may refer to those who persevere or do not stray, who stand firm, who endure, who hold firmly, etc.

2. Rom. 8:38-39 – “anything else” may refer to powers other than one’s own will.

3. Rom. 14:4&10, Paul says not to judge a servant of Jesus, who is able to make them stand before God’s judgment. The verb “make” may mean “provide a way”.

4. 1Cor 1:8, 10:12 & 15:58, Paul says that Jesus will keep the Corinthian believers firm to the end, warns them that if they think they are standing firm to be careful that they don’t fall and therefore, stand firm, letting nothing move them from the work of the Lord. These verses indicate that standing firm involves a believer cooperating with the way Jesus provides.

5. 2Cor 1:20-24, Paul says that God makes us stand firm in Christ and anointed our hearts with the HS as a seal and deposit; it is by faith that we stand firm. This indicates that the way God provides for standing firm is for believers to persevere in cooperating with the HS.

6. Eph. 1:11-14 – what is “predestined” is God’s plan to choose or elect anyone who desires to be “in him” or to satisfy GRFS. Thus, being “marked in him with a seal” does not abrogate moral free will (cf. 2Pet. 1:10f).

7. 1 John 2:19 – when synthesized with verse 24 must mean that those who repudiate their Faith do not eternally “belong”.

8. Psalm 135:6 – in light of “volitional verses” (such as Deut. 30:19 & Matt. 23:37) means that God “pleases” to permit limited free will.

9. Pro. 21:1 – in order not to make God responsible for the sins cited in the rest of the chapter must mean that the “king’s heart” or will is choosing to cooperate with the Lord’s “hand” or directions.

Over...

 

[FlyingDove]

The condition is what the NT inserted per the verses cited previously: perseverance.
This is conditional security, just as salvation is conditional--on saving faith from first to last (Rom. 1:17).

I see that you made no attempt to harmonize Scriptures on this subject, so I will go first. Passages cited in support of predestination may be harmonized with those cited previously supporting moral free will and need for perseverance as follows:

1. John 10:27-29 – being “unsnatchable” does not disallow a person from choosing to jump out of the “Father’s hand”. Also, in John 6:37 “never drive away” does not mean a person cannot go away, and in John 6:39 “I shall lose none” may refer to those who persevere or do not stray, who stand firm, who endure, who hold firmly, etc.

2. Rom. 8:38-39 – “anything else” may refer to powers other than one’s own will.

3. Rom. 14:4&10, Paul says not to judge a servant of Jesus, who is able to make them stand before God’s judgment. The verb “make” may mean “provide a way”.

4. 1Cor 1:8, 10:12 & 15:58, Paul says that Jesus will keep the Corinthian believers firm to the end, warns them that if they think they are standing firm to be careful that they don’t fall and therefore, stand firm, letting nothing move them from the work of the Lord. These verses indicate that standing firm involves a believer cooperating with the way Jesus provides.

5. 2Cor 1:20-24, Paul says that God makes us stand firm in Christ and anointed our hearts with the HS as a seal and deposit; it is by faith that we stand firm. This indicates that the way God provides for standing firm is for believers to persevere in cooperating with the HS.

6. Eph. 1:11-14 – what is “predestined” is God’s plan to choose or elect anyone who desires to be “in him” or to satisfy GRFS. Thus, being “marked in him with a seal” does not abrogate moral free will (cf. 2Pet. 1:10f).

7. 1 John 2:19 – when synthesized with verse 24 must mean that those who repudiate their Faith do not eternally “belong”.

8. Psalm 135:6 – in light of “volitional verses” (such as Deut. 30:19 & Matt. 23:37) means that God “pleases” to permit limited free will.

9. Pro. 21:1 – in order not to make God responsible for the sins cited in the rest of the chapter must mean that the “king’s heart” or will is choosing to cooperate with the Lord’s “hand” or directions.

Over...

More of the same today you add a new twist: eternal doesn't mean eternal. You wrote: This is conditional security, just as salvation is conditional—on saving faith from first to last & you anchor it to Romans 1:17. But Romans 1:17 does not support conditional security.

Romans 1:17 is about how God saves, not how long salvation lasts. It harmonizes perfectly with the rest of Scripture when read as Paul intended: faith is the instrument of justification, not the condition for keeping yourself saved.

You are free to believe & promote the notion that our Creator (Jn 1:3,10, Col 1:16–17, 1 Cor 8:6, Eph 3:9), God Almighty (Rev 1:8), our Redeemer (Gal 3:13, Titus 2:14, 1 Pet 1:18–19), and Savior (Lk 2:11, Jn 4:42, 1 Tim 1:15), who willingly gave Himself (Matt 26:53), fulfilled the law's required sin payment (Rom 6:23) & declared ""It is finished"" (Jn 19:30), really didn't finish the job & now it's now up to me to complete what He supposedly left undone. But I adamantly disagree.

And as for the warning passages you've listed, you're free to tremble & live in fear under them if you want. That's your choice. I rejoice daily without fear because I BELIEVE: Jesus is my Lord & Savior, He died for my sins, was buried & rose on the 3 day (1 Cor 15:1-4) for my justification (Rom 4:25). That HE is the faithful One (Phil 2:8-11 & Rev 1:5), He is the obedient One (Rom 5:19) He is the one & only Savior (Acts 4:12, Jn 4:42 & Titus 2: 13-14) I am justified, sanctified & He is glorified. Best wishes JJ

 

[GWH]

More of the same today you add a new twist: eternal doesn't mean eternal. You wrote: This is conditional security, just as salvation is conditional—on saving faith from first to last & you anchor it to Romans 1:17. But Romans 1:17 does not support conditional security.

Romans 1:17 is about how God saves, not how long salvation lasts. It harmonizes perfectly with the rest of Scripture when read as Paul intended: faith is the instrument of justification, not the condition for keeping yourself saved.

You are free to believe & promote the notion that our Creator (Jn 1:3,10, Col 1:16–17, 1 Cor 8:6, Eph 3:9), God Almighty (Rev 1:8), our Redeemer (Gal 3:13, Titus 2:14, 1 Pet 1:18–19), and Savior (Lk 2:11, Jn 4:42, 1 Tim 1:15), who willingly gave Himself (Matt 26:53), fulfilled the law's required sin payment (Rom 6:23) & declared ""It is finished"" (Jn 19:30), really didn't finish the job & now it's now up to me to complete what He supposedly left undone. But I adamantly disagree.

And as for the warning passages you've listed, you're free to tremble & live in fear under them if you want. That's your choice. I rejoice daily without fear because I BELIEVE: Jesus is my Lord & Savior, He died for my sins, was buried & rose on the 3 day (1 Cor 15:1-4) for my justification (Rom 4:25). That HE is the faithful One (Phil 2:8-11 & Rev 1:5), He is the obedient One (Rom 5:19) He is the one & only Savior (Acts 4:12, Jn 4:42 & Titus 2: 13-14) I am justified, sanctified & He is glorified. Best wishes JJ

Rom. 1:17 supports faith, which is the condition for salvation (Eph. 2:8-9) and security (Rom. 11:22, 1Cor. 15:2, Col. 1:22-23, 2Thes. 1:4-5, 2Tim. 2:12, Heb. 3:6&14, 10:35-36, Jam. 1:12, 2Pet. 1:10-11, 2:20, 1John 2:24-25 and Rev. 2:10). Per Paul faith is the instrument of both justification and remaining saved.

Jesus finished the job of atoning for the sins of humanity (John 19:30), but it is up to sinners whether to choose saving faith or ignore GW (Rom. 1:16-3:22).

Re the warning passages: We rejoice because of choosing to keep on believing rather than repent of having saving faith.
We remain justified and continue to be sanctified. LIC, GWH