Two main issues

[wattie]

yeah but see whenever baptism is mentioned it’s this

“And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭8:36-39‬ ‭KJV‬‬

see my point is there’s one baptism

“There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭4:4-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

And that one baptism is always done in water it’s the same baptism Jesus partook of all his disciples partook of before and after the cross like that person above or there’s folks ot specifically mentions water in baptism

“Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭10:47-48‬ ‭KJV‬‬

If there’s one baptism like it says and it’s well explained to be done in water for remission of sins why are we talking about a second form of “ baptism “ the apostles established baptism in water done in Jesus name for the remission of sins it’s the same baptism God sent before Jesus came forth done in water for remission of sins there is no second is my point Jesus gives the spirit to anyone that believes that’s what John was talking about it isn’t a second baotism just part of the one baptism

Well, when the disciples were empowered in Acts 2.. Jesus called this being baptised by the Holy Spirit and fire.

They were converted, believers before this happened.

Then it repeats in Acts to whole groups.

Already converted believers gathered, that are empowered by the Holy Spirit... As a group. I believe this is when a church becomes one of God's own. They have the Holy Spirit 'in the midst'

Then there is also water baptism.

 

[Cameron143]

yeah but see whenever baptism is mentioned it’s this

“And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭8:36-39‬ ‭KJV‬‬

see my point is there’s one baptism

“There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭4:4-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

And that one baptism is always done in water it’s the same baptism Jesus partook of all his disciples partook of before and after the cross like that person above or there’s folks ot specifically mentions water in baptism

“Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭10:47-48‬ ‭KJV‬‬

If there’s one baptism like it says and it’s well explained to be done in water for remission of sins why are we talking about a second form of “ baptism “ the apostles established baptism in water done in Jesus name for the remission of sins it’s the same baptism God sent before Jesus came forth done in water for remission of sins there is no second is my point Jesus gives the spirit to anyone that believes that’s what John was talking about it isn’t a second baotism just part of the one baptism

I appreciate your response greatly. But I'm not referring to a physical baptism in water. I'm talking about a spiritual baptism that places us into the body of Christ. For reference...Romans 6:3-5. This spiritual baptism is typified by water baptism.

This is similar to how the Lord's supper typifies how we feed on Christ. We don't literally partake of Him, we feed spiritually on Him.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I appreciate your response greatly. But I'm not referring to a physical baptism in water. I'm talking about a spiritual baptism that places us into the body of Christ. For reference...Romans 6:3-5. This spiritual baptism is typified by water baptism.

This is similar to how the Lord's supper typifies how we feed on Christ. We don't literally partake of Him, we feed spiritually on Him.

“But I'm not referring to a physical baptism in water. I'm talking about a spiritual baptism that places us into the body of Christ”

brother look though your talking about two baptisms but

“There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭4:4-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

What I’m saying is simple were the apostle and early church practicing this “ baptism of water “ that’s different from some other second baptism of spirit ?

“And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? ( that’s baptism there’s just one )

And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. ( first one believes in Jesus )

And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭8:36-39‬

are you telling me th are not the right baptism they practiced and there’s a different one ? Your talking about two baptisms water and spirit in sayong it’s one

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, ( baptism in water for repentance and remission of sins in Christs name )


and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”( spirit baptism )
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:38‬ ‭KJV‬‬


There’s one baptism brother commanded by Jesus for us to practice what John spoke of was fulfilled at pentocost when Jesus gave his spirit to them this part

“I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭3:11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

your thinkin there must be two baptisms but this part was fulfilled at pentocost

“he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:”

after Jesus rose

“For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judæa, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭1:5, 8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

a few days later they are “ baptized with fire and the Holy Ghost “

“And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:3-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬


Receiving the Holy Ghost is to become part of his body and the spiritual baptism John foretold it hadn’t happened yet is why he said it that way now baptism includes receiving the holt spirit or it comes after we do

it’s why when we get baptized we do it on his name brother there’s one name under heaven for salvation as well as one baptism in his one name

“Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭4:12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

baptism is still the same but now we receive the spirit by faith either like this

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, ( baptism in water for repentance and remission of sins in Christs name )


and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”( spirit baptism )
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:38‬ ‭K

One act by us one gift given by Jesus

Or it can come like this like the “pentecost” of gentiles when e Holy Ghost was given to them as well

“And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead. To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. ( spirit baptism )

And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. ( he baptized them also with the Holy Ghost )

Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭10:42-45, 47-48‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Whenever you say baptism you are actually talking about the baptism Jesus went through all his disciples went through all the early church went through it just happens to be done in water receiving the Holy Ghost is what John called baptism of the Holy Ghost

a there’s not baptism of water and baptism of spirit it’s baptism and receiving the spirit now it’s one act of faith one gift of promise given by Jesus


the Holy Ghost and fire came and now is freely available to all
Believers as is baptism for remission of sins

 

[Cameron143]

“But I'm not referring to a physical baptism in water. I'm talking about a spiritual baptism that places us into the body of Christ”

brother look though your talking about two baptisms but

“There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭4:4-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

What I’m saying is simple were the apostle and early church practicing this “ baptism of water “ that’s different from some other second baptism of spirit ?

“And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? ( that’s baptism there’s just one )

And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. ( first one believes in Jesus )

And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭8:36-39‬

are you telling me th are not the right baptism they practiced and there’s a different one ? Your talking about two baptisms water and spirit in sayong it’s one

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, ( baptism in water for repentance and remission of sins in Christs name )


and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”( spirit baptism )
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:38‬ ‭KJV‬‬


There’s one baptism brother commanded by Jesus for us to practice what John spoke of was fulfilled at pentocost when Jesus gave his spirit to them this part

“I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭3:11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

your thinkin there must be two baptisms but this part was fulfilled at pentocost

“he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:”

after Jesus rose

“For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judæa, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭1:5, 8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

a few days later they are “ baptized with fire and the Holy Ghost “

“And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:3-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬


Receiving the Holy Ghost is to become part of his body and the spiritual baptism John foretold it hadn’t happened yet is why he said it that way now baptism includes receiving the holt spirit or it comes after we do

it’s why when we get baptized we do it on his name brother there’s one name under heaven for salvation as well as one baptism in his one name

“Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭4:12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

baptism is still the same but now we receive the spirit by faith either like this

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, ( baptism in water for repentance and remission of sins in Christs name )


and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”( spirit baptism )
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:38‬ ‭K

One act by us one gift given by Jesus

Or it can come like this like the “pentecost” of gentiles when e Holy Ghost was given to them as well

“And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead. To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. ( spirit baptism )

And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. ( he baptized them also with the Holy Ghost )

Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭10:42-45, 47-48‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Whenever you say baptism you are actually talking about the baptism Jesus went through all his disciples went through all the early church went through it just happens to be done in water receiving the Holy Ghost is what John called baptism of the Holy Ghost

a there’s not baptism of water and baptism of spirit it’s baptism and receiving the spirit now it’s one act of faith one gift of promise given by Jesus


the Holy Ghost and fire came and now is freely available to all
Believers as is baptism for remission of sins

Thanks for responding. I'm only talking about 1 baptism. It's spiritual. By it we are placed into Christ or into His body. It isn't something we do or experience. It is done for us by God. Water baptism is our recognition of this and confirming this reality publicly.

Consider the case of the Ethiopian eunuch. The gospel is shared and he asks to be baptized. But Philip doesn't immediately baptize him. Why? Because he has no evidence of genuine salvation. He doesn't know whether the eunuch is a believer or not. He isn't sure whether what is happening is genuinely of God or the work of the eunuchs conscience. So he probes further. He tells the eunuch he may if he believes with all his heart. The eunuch responded that he believed Jesus was the Son of God. Philip accepts this answer as evidence that the profession made by the eunuch is genuine and is a true conversion.
So why is Philip so sure now when only moments before he was hesitant? The answer lies in the eunuchs response. It is almost exactly what Peter said in answer to the Lord's question...who do you say I am? After Peter answered, Jesus went on to say that it was not flesh and blood that gives such revelation but God and that the church would be built in this manner.
Thus, having confirmed that the eunuchs confession of faith was authentic, he saw nothing to hinder an outward baptism, recognizing that a true inward baptism into Christ had occurred.
The same is true of Peter in the story you shared above. But in that case, the confirmation of authentic conversion is the manifestation of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Nehemiah6]

What I’m saying is simple were the apostle and early church practicing this “ baptism of water “ that’s different from some other second baptism of spirit ?

I believe you are somewhat confused. Repentance and faith in Christ results in the baptism WITH the Holy Spirit (the gift of the Holy Spirit). Christ is the Baptizer. There is also a "second" baptism if you will, and that is when the Holy Spirit "baptizes" a believer into the Body of Christ (1 Cor 12:13).

At the same time, the one who is saved is COMMANDED to be baptized by immersion in water, and in the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. Yet there are some Hyper-Dispensationalists who deny the necessity of water baptism. And that is plainly rebellion against the commandment of Christ.

Therefore there are in fact THREE BAPTISMS -- two spiritual and supernatural, and one physical (as an act of obedience to Christ). So to answer your question, the apostles always had the two baptisms in view (and only Paul mentions the baptism BY the Holy Spirit). The "one baptism" mentioned in Ephesians is Spirit baptism with Chrtist as the Baptizer, but that DOES NOT cancel the other baptism. Everything must remain in context.

 

[mustaphadrink]

JohnnyMac has no PHD in anything. I used to listen to him years ago until I found out he's a cessationist.
His wrote a book titled "Strange Fire": in it he openly condemns the Charismatic movement. If that's not enough, he judges the Pentecostals & charismatics as one group for creating strange fire. In my opinion he's the spiritual opposite of Kenneth Copeland & just as bad.

An observation. I have noticed that anti charismatic and cessationist preachers get a good following if they are good preachers. In my home town two churches that were just that were the largest. I think the appeal is that you can get some good teaching but you don't have to do anything, just turn up at meetings. A lot of these preachers believe that if you go through a book verse by verse, then you are giving solid teaching.

 

[wattie]

An observation. I have noticed that anti charismatic and cessationist preachers get a good following if they are good preachers. In my home town two churches that were just that were the largest. I think the appeal is that you can get some good teaching but you don't have to do anything, just turn up at meetings. A lot of these preachers believe that if you go through a book verse by verse, then you are giving solid teaching.

How would it not be solid teaching to teach the bible expositionally? Verse by verse?

The best way to understand the bible is that way. In context.

Do you mean there was little emotional content?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Thanks for responding. I'm only talking about 1 baptism. It's spiritual. By it we are placed into Christ or into His body. It isn't something we do or experience. It is done for us by God. Water baptism is our recognition of this and confirming this reality publicly.

Consider the case of the Ethiopian eunuch. The gospel is shared and he asks to be baptized. But Philip doesn't immediately baptize him. Why? Because he has no evidence of genuine salvation. He doesn't know whether the eunuch is a believer or not. He isn't sure whether what is happening is genuinely of God or the work of the eunuchs conscience. So he probes further. He tells the eunuch he may if he believes with all his heart. The eunuch responded that he believed Jesus was the Son of God. Philip accepts this answer as evidence that the profession made by the eunuch is genuine and is a true conversion.
So why is Philip so sure now when only moments before he was hesitant? The answer lies in the eunuchs response. It is almost exactly what Peter said in answer to the Lord's question...who do you say I am? After Peter answered, Jesus went on to say that it was not flesh and blood that gives such revelation but God and that the church would be built in this manner.
Thus, having confirmed that the eunuchs confession of faith was authentic, he saw nothing to hinder an outward baptism, recognizing that a true inward baptism into Christ had occurred.
The same is true of Peter in the story you shared above. But in that case, the confirmation of authentic conversion is the manifestation of the Holy Spirit.

brother was Jesus baptism “ spiritual “

“Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying,

the heaven was opened, and the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭3:21-22‬ ‭KJV‬‬

You’re telling me this isn’t the one baptism Jesus went through and it’s not spiritual ? But this is e command to baptize for the church notice how it’s exactly what Jesus went through when he was baptized ?


“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,

and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:38‬ ‭KJV‬‬

your saying this isn’t baptism and isnt spiritual because God designed it to be performed in water ? Yet it’s a promise that you’ll receive the holy spirit do you see my conundrum ?

Do you believe God sent John the Baptist to establish baptism of repentance fire remission of sins preparing the people for the messiah ?

Or did John make up baptism in water himself ? If it’s what God established then why are we searching for a second baptism where no one does anything ?

baptism is basic if you hear and believe Jesus does for your sins you believe and get baptized in his name what that means is what it says in the Bible about baptism it’s not what I’m saying it’s what the Bible explains about baptism

any looking at it like “ well water doesn’t mean anything “ your eliminating what God said baptism means thereby eliminating faith that you heard just by rejecting a basic thing chrirtians are taught to believe and do

when you go beneath the water and are submerged and raised up in Jesus name it means this if we don’t reject what it says that is

This is why you do that confessing faith in his name

“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:3-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

your buried with him into death and raised with him to new life that’s why your buried beneath the water and raised up from it it’s an act of faith , faith doesn’t mean now you don’t need to don the action it means you. NOw believe what God said the action means so you’ll gladly do it believing what you hearrd

even if you stick to a second spiritual baptism existing lol itnis t something we can do I can’t give anyone the Holy Ghost nor can any man only Jesus can give the gift of the holy spirit and he commanded us to baptize and be baptized in his name

it’s just basic and simple I’ve never understood the argument about changing baptism from the one baptism the Bible teaches us about

 

[Cameron143]

brother was Jesus baptism “ spiritual “

“Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying,

the heaven was opened, and the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭3:21-22‬ ‭KJV‬‬

You’re telling me this isn’t the one baptism Jesus went through and it’s not spiritual ? But this is e command to baptize for the church notice how it’s exactly what Jesus went through when he was baptized ?


“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,

and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:38‬ ‭KJV‬‬

your saying this isn’t baptism and isnt spiritual because God designed it to be performed in water ? Yet it’s a promise that you’ll receive the holy spirit do you see my conundrum ?

Do you believe God sent John the Baptist to establish baptism of repentance fire remission of sins preparing the people for the messiah ?

Or did John make up baptism in water himself ? If it’s what God established then why are we searching for a second baptism where no one does anything ?

baptism is basic if you hear and believe Jesus does for your sins you believe and get baptized in his name what that means is what it says in the Bible about baptism it’s not what I’m saying it’s what the Bible explains about baptism

any looking at it like “ well water doesn’t mean anything “ your eliminating what God said baptism means thereby eliminating faith that you heard just by rejecting a basic thing chrirtians are taught to believe and do

when you go beneath the water and are submerged and raised up in Jesus name it means this if we don’t reject what it says that is

This is why you do that confessing faith in his name

“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:3-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

your buried with him into death and raised with him to new life that’s why your buried beneath the water and raised up from it it’s an act of faith , faith doesn’t mean now you don’t need to don the action it means you. NOw believe what God said the action means so you’ll gladly do it believing what you hearrd

even if you stick to a second spiritual baptism existing lol itnis t something we can do I can’t give anyone the Holy Ghost nor can any man only Jesus can give the gift of the holy spirit and he commanded us to baptize and be baptized in his name

it’s just basic and simple I’ve never understood the argument about changing baptism from the one baptism the Bible teaches us about

Thanks for replying. I'm sure I'm doing a poor job of explaining. Yes, there is a physical water baptism. But I believe Romans 6 speaks of a spiritual baptism...that is, we are placed into Christ. It isn't something done to us, it is something done for us. Positionally, before we are saved we are outside of Christ. When we are saved we are placed in Christ. This is why the Apostle Paul continually speaks of being in Christ.
Romans 8:1 says there is therefore no condemnation. But who does that apply to?
No condemnation for those who are IN Christ Jesus. There is still condemnation for those not IN Christ.
We didn't do this for ourselves. God did it for us. It is a positional change in our eternal estate.
When we are baptized in water, it is a picture of what has happened spiritually. God has remitted our sins and placed us in the body of Christ. We are no longer under condemnation. We have been accepted into the beloved.
This is the best I can explain it. I apologize if my communication skills have only added to the confusion.

 

[Edify]

I'm not in rebellion.. sin grieves me. But the grace of Jesus never leaves so I can get back up again.

So then sin in undone. Do you see how osas works? Since sin doesn't undo salvation... We can flee from it. We aren't on a mouse wheel of effort.

If we have to keep a level of performance.. then we are still in bonds to sin. See the difference?

Philippians 3:14
New American Standard Bible
I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
Salvation isn't for sluggards. Neither do we need to be walking in perfection. If that were the case, nobody would go.

 

[Fundaamental]

I'm not in rebellion.. sin grieves me. But the grace of Jesus never leaves so I can get back up again.

So then sin in undone. Do you see how osas works? Since sin doesn't undo salvation... We can flee from it. We aren't on a mouse wheel of effort.

If we have to keep a level of performance.. then we are still in bonds to sin. See the difference?

Keep building a church friend and don't lose hope.

There is absolutely no way in this world your going to win somebody over who truly believes somebody else can forfeit there salvation, but they can't.

This is my observation that it's not Christ like to think of your self more highly than other Christians.

Its really is not brother.

I'm so disheartened that this doctrine is allowed here that a Christian can forfeit there salvation, I'm even more shocked that this view is well supported.

And the reason for this new doctrine is what exactly, ? My observation is its to win an argument. If I was to give this new doctrine a new name it would be once forfeited always forfeited.

This is totally the opposite position for the way God protects his saved children.

I am really saddened by this so much so I've decided to leave so this is my last post. What is the point in me sharing my beliefs or even carrying on to do my utmost to please God if I can lose the precious gift of salvation. I've been practising Christianity now for 12 months none stop. And for what Just so I lose it. Oh my. I would rather cut my tongue of then confess another Christian could forfeit the most precious gift of all. What a horrible place to put new believers into. Where is the hope in this doctrine. Or the fruits of the holy spirit. Goodbye.

 

[Aaron56]

brother was Jesus baptism “ spiritual “

“Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying,

the heaven was opened, and the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭3:21-22‬ ‭KJV‬‬

You’re telling me this isn’t the one baptism Jesus went through and it’s not spiritual ? But this is e command to baptize for the church notice how it’s exactly what Jesus went through when he was baptized ?


“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,

and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:38‬ ‭KJV‬‬

your saying this isn’t baptism and isnt spiritual because God designed it to be performed in water ? Yet it’s a promise that you’ll receive the holy spirit do you see my conundrum ?

Do you believe God sent John the Baptist to establish baptism of repentance fire remission of sins preparing the people for the messiah ?

Or did John make up baptism in water himself ? If it’s what God established then why are we searching for a second baptism where no one does anything ?

baptism is basic if you hear and believe Jesus does for your sins you believe and get baptized in his name what that means is what it says in the Bible about baptism it’s not what I’m saying it’s what the Bible explains about baptism

any looking at it like “ well water doesn’t mean anything “ your eliminating what God said baptism means thereby eliminating faith that you heard just by rejecting a basic thing chrirtians are taught to believe and do

when you go beneath the water and are submerged and raised up in Jesus name it means this if we don’t reject what it says that is

This is why you do that confessing faith in his name

“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:3-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

your buried with him into death and raised with him to new life that’s why your buried beneath the water and raised up from it it’s an act of faith , faith doesn’t mean now you don’t need to don the action it means you. NOw believe what God said the action means so you’ll gladly do it believing what you hearrd

even if you stick to a second spiritual baptism existing lol itnis t something we can do I can’t give anyone the Holy Ghost nor can any man only Jesus can give the gift of the holy spirit and he commanded us to baptize and be baptized in his name

it’s just basic and simple I’ve never understood the argument about changing baptism from the one baptism the Bible teaches us about

Jesus' baptism (immersion) was the ceremonial washing of the sacrifice (Jesus) by the priest (John). This was done to fulfill the righteousness of the Law.

 

[Aaron56]

For the record:

The Spirit immerses/baptizes us into the Body of Christ. This is a change of identity.
The Lord immerses/baptizes us into the Holy Spirit. This is a change of power.
The Lord immerses/baptizes us in fire. This is a change of agency; learning to live by faith.
We may immerse/baptize other believers in water. This is a change of law; from sin & death to the law of the Son.

All are important.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Thanks for replying. I'm sure I'm doing a poor job of explaining. Yes, there is a physical water baptism. But I believe Romans 6 speaks of a spiritual baptism...that is, we are placed into Christ. It isn't something done to us, it is something done for us. Positionally, before we are saved we are outside of Christ. When we are saved we are placed in Christ. This is why the Apostle Paul continually speaks of being in Christ.
Romans 8:1 says there is therefore no condemnation. But who does that apply to?
No condemnation for those who are IN Christ Jesus. There is still condemnation for those not IN Christ.
We didn't do this for ourselves. God did it for us. It is a positional change in our eternal estate.
When we are baptized in water, it is a picture of what has happened spiritually. God has remitted our sins and placed us in the body of Christ. We are no longer under condemnation. We have been accepted into the beloved.
This is the best I can explain it. I apologize if my communication skills have only added to the confusion.

brother lol we’re brothers in Christ do not think I’m offended or confused I always love chatting with you about scripture we’re just discussing something and no offense is present

“Yes, there is a physical water baptism. But I believe Romans 6 speaks of a spiritual baptism...that is, we are placed into Christ.”

what im saying is brother there’s just the one baptism that the church is commanded to do . Though we do it in water it is what puts us in his body is what I’m clumsily trying to say it’s one action and has two parts

ashen we get baptized into his name that’s putting us in his body the spiritual part is receiving his spirit it’s to be born of water and spirit

see johns ministry came before Jesus preached the gospel then died and rose and ascended to heavens throne where he sent his spirit to believers

a remember in the gospel when jesus promised the holy spirit after he went away to the father ? That’s what John was talking about Jesus baptizing with the spirit later

“Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: of sin, because they believe not on me; of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.”
‭‭John‬ ‭16:7-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

john had preached before all that was possible so he was looking forward to when Jesus would shed his spirit forth

what I’m saying is baptism hasn’t changed but what happens at baptism has meaning now and we can receive the spirit through faith and either get baptized before or after we receive the spirit but baptism has never changed the action of it I mean it’s still don’t I. Submersion of water and still we are raised up from the water in Jesus name

the reason we get baptized in his name is because that’s baptizing us into his body the one body , one baptism , on lord one name ect

“in whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭2:11-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

See that’s baptism when your buried below the water your being buried by faith with Jesus and when your raised up from the water your being raised up free of sin because you died with him in baptism

“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:3-5, 8, 11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

a think of the term “buried with him into death through baptism “ now think of baptism by immersion your buried in Jesus name beneath the water because you believe he died for your sins and then your raised up from beneath the water with him to a new life as Gods son filled with his spirit

the action itself makes it hard to not get it . What im probably not saying well is baptism is one we have our instructions and we have his promise of the spirit the rest is on us to believe it and act

airs just like communion some will say “ communion doesn’t mean anything it’s just a ritual “ yet if they believe what they hear about it they would think this

“For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come. Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭11:26-30‬ ‭

a everything is based on what god said things mean baptism for remission of sins in his name , communion with his body and blood ect

We might say “ baptism in water has no saving value “ yet Jesus said it is done in his name for remission of our sins which is essential to salvation

awe might say communion isn’t anything but the Bible says it is ultra meaningful and significant faith is when we start to believe those things we wouldnt otherwise believe baptisms value is that God designed it for remission of sins it’s done in water to signify the death and resurrection of Christ who’s name we are baptized in who’s death we partake of and who’s resurrection we will inherit

anyways brother I’m not arguing with you or disagreeing just trying to get a point across that baptism is the same it’s always been when Jesus was baptized but now we receive his spirit

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Jesus' baptism (immersion) was the ceremonial washing of the sacrifice (Jesus) by the priest (John). This was done to fulfill the righteousness of the Law.

There is no command of baptism in the law to be fulfilled baptism in water is for remission of sins Jesus did it because he had to live as a man and men need to get baptized for remission of sins he did it for an example for his disciples later baptism has nothing to do with law it’s actually the end of the le when we get baptized into his death

“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:3-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭7:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

baptism is the equivalent of circumcision to the ot law

“in whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭2:11-12‬ ‭KJV‬‬


Christ was baptized to fulfill the righteousness of man in other words he showed us what to do Jesus baptism

“Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying,

the heaven was opened, and the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him,

and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭3:21-22‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Our baptism

“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,


and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:38-39, 41‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it’s a significant thing it’s actually the first commandment to any new Christian the first thing one would want to do is get baptized in Jesus name for remission of sins and receive the Holy Ghost or believe receive the Holy Ghost and then get baptized immediately in his name for remission of sins as God designed

 

[Aaron56]

There is no command of baptism in the law to be fulfilled baptism in water is for remission of sins Jesus did it because he had to live as a man and men need to get baptized for remission of sins he did it for an example for his disciples later baptism has nothing to do with law it’s actually the end of the le when we get baptized into his death

“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:3-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭7:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

baptism is the equivalent of circumcision to the ot law

“in whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭2:11-12‬ ‭KJV‬‬


Christ was baptized to fulfill the righteousness of man in other words he showed us what to do Jesus baptism

“Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying,

the heaven was opened, and the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him,

and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭3:21-22‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Our baptism

“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,


and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:38-39, 41‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it’s a significant thing it’s actually the first commandment to any new Christian the first thing one would want to do is get baptized in Jesus name for remission of sins and receive the Holy Ghost or believe receive the Holy Ghost and then get baptized immediately in his name for remission of sins as God designed

The sacrifices must be washed by priests. That's what John, a Levitical Priest and one having taken the oath of a Nazarite, did to Jesus.

"..thus it is fitting for us (you and me) to fulfill all righteousness."

 

[Pilgrimshope]

For the record:

The Spirit immerses/baptizes us into the Body of Christ. This is a change of identity.
The Lord immerses/baptizes us into the Holy Spirit. This is a change of power.
The Lord immerses/baptizes us in fire. This is a change of agency; learning to live by faith.
We may immerse/baptize other believers in water. This is a change of law; from sin & death to the law of the Son.

All are important.

what do you know about the one baptism in our faith ?

“There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭4:4-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Did John establish baptism or did God send John to baptize ?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

The sacrifices must be washed by priests. That's what John, a Levitical Priest and one having taken the oath of a Nazarite, did to Jesus.

"..thus it is fitting for us (you and me) to fulfill all righteousness."

“in whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭2:11, 13‬ ‭

Lol your saying nope to that statement brother ? Baptism isn’t the circumcision of Christ like it says there ?

Or here this sternest isn’t true either it was just a ceremonial washing of an animal sacrifice and what the apostles are teaching isn’t true ?

“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:3-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬


Im not sure we’re going to agree about the one baptism the Bible teaches , if I remember before you explained four baptisms and we couldnt agree before

 

[Aaron56]

what do you know about the one baptism in our faith ?

“There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭4:4-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Did John establish baptism or did God send John to baptize ?

The one baptism in reference is the one baptism completed by the Spirit. He immerses each believer into the Body of Christ.

It is framed against the endeavor to keep unity among brethren:

"..endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace."

Which is the theme of the treatise of the entire letter to the Ephesians:

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved."

 

[Pilgrimshope]

The sacrifices must be washed by priests. That's what John, a Levitical Priest and one having taken the oath of a Nazarite, did to Jesus.

"..thus it is fitting for us (you and me) to fulfill all righteousness."

a brother what about the rest of the New Testament and what it says about baptism though ?

Do you think maybe a sacrifice is washed and that’s true , but that’s not actually the meaning of baptism ? Maybe because of all those scriptures explaining it and what it means ? Have nothing to do with a ceremonial watching like your insisting ?