You said "Please quote at least one verse of scripture that indicates God's love is conditional,"
Who is confused?
Unconditional love verses from God to us the people
- Thread starter homwardbound
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You said "Please quote at least one verse of scripture that indicates God's love is conditional,"
Who is confused?
Wow! Great minds do think alike!
I have asked this type of question often in the past! If God loves all w/o exception, if He loves all w/o any regard for their spiritual condition, then why would atonement for sin be necessary, or as you asked why would repentance be necessary? After all, scripture says that love covers a multitude of sins (1Pet 4:8).On the contrary again, I distinguish between unconditional love and conditional forgiveness,
so YOU must be the one conflating them.
Understanding GW regarding salvation requires/is conditional on learning a lot of chapters and verses,
but the clearest way of stating the doctrine of salvation I have found is in Lesson 2 of our website:
<truthseekersfellowship.com>
The nutshell version is "Accept Jesus as Messiah and Lord".
The creedal version is the five point elaboration of what the nutshell implies.
The long version is Part I of Lesson 2.
The longest version is the entire Lesson.
Wow! Great minds do think alike!
I guess NeutralZone has not seen my explanation of how hell jibes with love, so here it is:
A person—even a theist—might think that a loving God would not permit evil, suffering and hell to exist. People who are mystified by evil and repulsed by its punishment do not realize that the essential aspect of being a human rather than a robot or subhuman creature is moral free will (MFW), which is what enables a person to experience love and meaning. This is what makes humans different from animals, whose behavior is governed mainly by instinct. This is what it means to be created in God’s image (Gen. 1:26-27; robot or responsible)?
God could not force people to return His love without abrogating their humanity. If God were to zap ungodly souls, it would be tantamount to forcing conversions at gunpoint, which would not be free and genuine. If God were to prevent people from behaving hatefully, then He would need to prevent them from thinking evilly, which would make human souls programmed automatons.
MFW only exists when there is the possibility of choosing between two qualitatively opposite moral options that we call good and evil. These options are opposites because of essentially different consequences for choosing them. Choosing good results in blessing, life and heaven; and choosing evil results in cursing, death and hell (DT 30:19). This is why hell as well as heaven exists. It is the just consequence for choosing evil rather than God.
The Spirit of God is good: love, peace and joy (GL 5:22-23). Therefore, whoever rejects the Lord is spiritually separated from Him (IS 59:2) and thereby chooses the evil or satanic spirit of hatred, strife and misery and reaps the just consequence called “hell” in the afterlife (GL 6:7-9, HB 9:27-28). These options were presented by Moses to the Israelites (DT 30:19), and Jesus referred to this fundamental choice in terms of a fish or egg versus a snake or scorpion (LK 11:11-13). Life… or Curse? (GN 3:24, RV 22:1-2)
God created theoretical evil or the possibility of rejecting Him as an option that actualizes MFW/free human personality. As such it is necessary and even good (GN 1:31). Of course, it was wrong for Satan (1JN 3:8) and humanity (RM 5:12) to make evil actual by choosing to Sin or reject Faith in God’s Lordship. Sin: ignoring God/God’s Word.
God loves a cheerful giver (2CR 9:7), which means He desires people to cooperate with Him happily because of love and gratitude for His grace rather than to cower before Him because of fear of hell. Love must be evoked; it cannot be coerced. And again, when souls sin or do NOT choose to love God freely, it is perfectly just (loving and logical) for them to reap the appropriate consequence (GL 6:7-9) or hell.
Why would anyone choose to believe otherwise? Only God knows why people choose atheism. It is a mystery stated by Isaiah, which is cited by Jesus (in MT 13:14-15): “You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving. For this people’s heart has become calloused.” Apparently, this callous attitude demands God to nullify faith/MFW and thereby abrogate the essence of humanness by performing miracles in order to prove He exists (MT 12:39, 24:24, JN 20:29 & 1CR 1:22).
In other words, atheists presume to know better than God; they want to usurp divine authority to determine what is best or good, but they may one day (at the eschaton per RV 20:15) wish they had admitted the possibility that God has ordained this mortal life on earth for the purpose of people proving to Him who is worthy of (qualified for) eternal life in heaven (cf. RM 2:5-8 & 2CR 13:5; heart/mind: hard or open?).
Such evil people punish/torture themselves by experiencing delayed karma, just as those who experience appropriate justice during this earthly existence also punish themselves or reap what they have sown and send themselves to jail. This view makes souls responsible for breaking the rules rather than blaming evil on the judges (or Judge) who enforce the rules.
The purpose of earthly punishment is to promote repentance, but the reason for retribution in hell is to attain justice. It is difficult to imagine, but somehow even someone as evil as Hitler will receive perfect justice, perhaps experiencing the agony of the millions of deaths he caused in accordance with the principal of “eye for eye” (MT 5:38), after which their souls are destroyed forever (per JN 17:12, RM 9:22, GL 6:8, PHP 3:19, 2THS 1:9, 2PT 3:7 & RV 20:13-14).
I don't see conditions placed on God's love in Matt5:43-48 for example. Because God is Love all of humanity experiences His love because of who He is. Jesus summed this up as being perfect.
Pursuant to other Scriptures, a few of which have been under discussion, I agree with the love <> obedience concept.
GWH:
All three of the scriptures you posted have conditions. I will bold the conditions in red for you, and include part of the context in other verses, when necessary.
New International Version -- John 3:16
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."
Romans 5:6
For, indeed, while we were still weak, Christ died for ungodly men at the appointed time.
Romans 5:7
For hardly would anyone die for a righteous man; though perhaps for a good man someone may dare to die.
Romans 5:8
But God recommends his own love to us in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Romans 5:12 --- CONTEXT TO VERSES 5-8
That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because they had all sinned—.
Majority Standard Bible -- Titus 2:11
"For the saving grace of God has appeared to everyone.
Titus 2:12 -- CONTEXT TO VERSE 11
"It instructs us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live sensible, upright, and godly lives in the present age,"
The conditions are right there, studier. You are simply ignoring them.
Matthew 5:43
“You heard that it was said: ‘You must love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’
Matthew 5:44
However, I say to you: Continue to love your enemies and to pray for those who persecute you,
Matthew 5:45
so that you may prove yourselves sons of your Father who is in the heavens, since he makes his sun rise on both the wicked and the good and makes it rain on both the righteous and the unrighteous.
Matthew 5:46
For if you love those loving you, what reward do you have? Are not also the tax collectors doing the same thing?
Matthew 5:47
And if you greet your brothers only, what extraordinary thing are you doing? Are not also the people of the nations doing the same thing?
Matthew 5:48
You must accordingly be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Simply and finally, God simply loves us all. Therefore, Son went to that cross willingly in our deserved place of death first, to reconcile us all to himself as forgiven first, to Father for us to be able to be given new life from Daddy, PaPa, Father. Since, new life is now offered for all to turn to God in belief to God's love that turns people to love and mercy willingly, as Son has revealed in his walk first, only dependent on Father, reveals to me, all will eventually will see and believe God or not, consciously each will choose. Each know, and choose either evil, bad or good (God) Each and all will learn this truth too in thanksgiving and praise to God or not. As in Psalm 100:4, and Psalm 103:12 those that believe God receive a new Heart that does not sin ever again, yet that pesky old flesh body still does. Time to reckon self dead to sin Romans 6:1-12, you think and be new in the rise Son given as the gift from Daddy, PaPa, Father gives free of charge, you think? me I know this and am thankful to God for this gift, being given the gift of Ezekiel 36:26 is for you and everyone else too. Ask, believe and be sincere, not wishing to spend any of it on any of your first birth pleasures
Have a blessed life here and forever in. Father an dSon for you, not against you
Love to all
Love from God to us all
I'm simply looking at the posted Scriptures and they say what they say. They are also very clear. The 2 I've gone through speak very clearly of a conditional love.
As I understand you, you see what I see about conditional love in John10. You also seem to say you see it in John16:27. It's clearly here in John14:21 also.
Knowing what's in these Scriptures from Jesus' teaching, though Paul speaks more of our love for God and for one another, I find it hard to consider that Paul does not have in mind this specific aspect of God's love for His Children who willingly faithfully obey Him.
Also, when Paul deals with the 2 greatest commandments, in the background of loving God is this specific aspect of God's love for those who obey His Son and thus Him. And since loving neighbor and one another is inextricably tied to loving God, the same underlying concept of His specific love for those who obey Him also underlies love for neighbor and one another which Paul deals with.
This is the thing about obedience to God; once something links to this as it does to love, it connects to virtually everything important in Scripture in our relationship to Him. For example, it connects to faith, especially in Paul but even this connects back to Jesus' teachings, and it connects to the new birth, both of which Paul deals with.
Simply put, Jesus is teaching some very profound underlying basics that are foundational to our understandings.
In this light, one of the things I find with the newer members of the Body is that they have very worldly and natural views of what love is, and they thus tie it to how they feel. God ties it more to something objective - what we do (based also on our inner man which He knows far better than we do to say the least) - and He responds accordingly.
With respect, let's try to begin on a better footing if you will. I'm not ignoring anything. If I miss something, I'm happy to be ultimately corrected by solid exegetical and contextual work and reasoning. Ignoring infers purpose and it's never my purpose or intent to ignore what Scripture says.
So, I don't have to look for it, what translation are you quoting from?
With that said, though I appreciate your laying out the detail for me, I think you're misunderstanding what's said in these verses. Our Father's perfection is seen in His [unconditionally] loving all men per Matt5:45b by providing for all men whether evil or good, righteous or unrighteous.
The mandate and comparison for us is to become like our Father and [unconditionally] love our enemies, etc...
There is a lot of refinement to this concept in Scripture, but I see God's unconditional love in these verses for the reasons just stated. This section is commonly referred to as "common grace", but it would seem better to refer to it as "common love".
John 3:16 indicates that God loves all sinners but forgives only those who satisfy the condition of belief in Jesus.
Romans 5:6-8 & 12 indicates that Christ loves and died for all men, (and we hope context indicates for women too :^).
Titus 2:12 tells those who repent/renounce ungodliness to live godly/loving lives (cf. Eph. 2:8-10, Gal. 5:22-23).
There's no confusion on my part. I meant to write "unconditional," so it's obviously a typo, based on my preceding sentence. But thanks for pointing out my mistake.You said "Please quote at least one verse of scripture that indicates God's love is conditional,"
Who is confused?
Wow! Great minds do think alike!
I believe 1 Peter 4:8 is referring to love among humans, that we are able to overlook each other's flaws out of love for one another.
Thank you for your pleasant words, homwardbound.
I want you and everyone to know that when I post a rebuttal to something anyone says about scripture, it is not meant to be regarded as a contest. It's simply my attempt to help others to be corrected by scripture.
2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness,
2 Timothy 3:17
so that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.
I quote from a variety of Bible translations, studier. My quotation of Matthew 5:43-48 at Post 108 (which you insist is proof of God's "unconditional" love) is from the New World Translation. Below are the same verses from the King James Version with the same expressions bolded in red (as was bolded in red at Post 108), showing there are condition/requirements to receiving God's love.
“43. You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44. But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45. that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46. For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47. And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? 48. Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect. "
I was noticing homewardbound's confusion in #93, but I guess it is moot by now.
Since the discussion is about our Father's love being conditional and/or unconditional, I've revised your highlighting to show where this Text speaks of His love being unconditional.
The context is love [as our Father loves]. Once again, Matt5:35b explains how God loves (and blesses) [unconditionally] by providing for all of humanity including His enemies.
- Love your enemies & bless men who curse you
- So you become like your Heavenly Father who provides for all men
- Don't just love those who love you
- Accordingly, you shall be perfect like your Heavenly Father