Understanding assurance of salvation

[Jordon]

Define "choice".

things of spiritual matter sense to make a spiritual decision.

So I've found no no evidence of yet whether Augustine believed we had a choice after spiritual enabling enabling part to make a spiritual decision.

What I have found is Rc Sproul acknowledged that God has blessed all mankind with common grace,

Common grace is a theological concept, mainly in Protestant Christianity, describing God's undeserved favor, blessings, and goodness given universally to all humanity and creation, distinct from special grace (salvation for believers). It includes natural blessings like rain, sun, beauty, intellect, health, and societal order, restraining sin and allowing good in the world for everyone, believer or not. This grace is seen in daily life, art, innovation, and morality, showing God's continued kindness to a fallen world.

 

[Watchman22]

things of spiritual matter sense to make a spiritual decision.

So I've found no no evidence of yet whether Augustine believed we had a choice after spiritual enabling enabling part to make a spiritual decision.

What I have found is Rc Sproul acknowledged that God has blessed all mankind with common grace,

Common grace is a theological concept, mainly in Protestant Christianity, describing God's undeserved favor, blessings, and goodness given universally to all humanity and creation, distinct from special grace (salvation for believers). It includes natural blessings like rain, sun, beauty, intellect, health, and societal order, restraining sin and allowing good in the world for everyone, believer or not. This grace is seen in daily life, art, innovation, and morality, showing God's continued kindness to a fallen world.

And why do we care what augustine believed?

 

[Jordon]

And why do we care what augustine believed?

because I want to believe all the five points of tulip are lining up with what I'm believing

 

[Watchman22]

because I want to believe all the five points of tulip are lining up with what I'm believing

In the old testament days, those people were always looking back to the ones that lived before them for enlightenment. They never realized that their lives would make up the old testament.

In the new testament days, the same thing. They were looking back to the people of the old testament for enlightenment. They couldn't have know that some day their lives would make up something so great as the new testament.

Now here we are doing the same thing, looking back for answers from those NT people, not realizing we are living the next testament here and now.

Maybe in this testament we can focus on God himself , and find out what he wants to teach us.

 

[Jordon]

In the old testament days, those people were always looking back to the ones that lived before them for enlightenment. They never realized that their lives would make up the old testament.

In the new testament days, the same thing. They were looking back to the people of the old testament for enlightenment. They couldn't have know that some day their lives would make up something so great as the new testament.

Now here we are doing the same thing, looking back for answers from those NT people, not realizing we are living the next testament here and now.

Maybe in this testament we can focus on God himself , and find out what he wants to teach us.

I understand what your saying, but its.the way I am, Being in state of belief and knowing your faith lines up with his word is enough,

The technicalities of how that happened is more of a discussion.

Theology and philosophy is more an interest of mine, then anything else.

Not knowing doesn't have any real importance to me not believing, but what is important is the correct understanding is known to me, more so when there is controversy over the discussion, it just draws me in, and before you knows I'm hooked on wanting to know the answers.

Many discuss this topic here but I don't see this fundamental question ask, im seeking the answer to, i see a lot of pointing fingers at my faith without knowing the answer to what I'm asking, which is does enabling grace from Augustine point of view mean you can make a choice after that ?

I mean if it does that ends the argument to me.

 

[Watchman22]

I understand what your saying, but its.the way I am, Being in state of belief and knowing your faith lines up with his word is enough,

The technicalities of how that happened is more of a discussion.

Theology and philosophy is more an interest of mine, then anything else.

Not knowing doesn't have any real importance to me not believing, but what is important is the correct understanding is known to me, more so when there is controversy over the discussion, it just draws me in, and before you knows I'm hooked on wanting to know the answers.

Many discuss this topic here but I don't see this fundamental question ask, im seeking the answer to, i see a lot of pointing fingers at my faith without knowing the answer to what I'm asking, which is does enabling grace from Augustine point of view mean you can make a choice after that ?

I mean if it does that ends the argument to me.

First let's look at what you mean by enabling or irresistible grace. I assume this is Sproul's lingo for the Holy spirit being put inside a faither, or what you would call a believer. My instructor would call that the "grace deposit" which is in line with what the greek texts tell us. He owned the largest collection of biblical manuscripts in private hands behind the Vatican, and that s what he taught from. He was the one who taught other theologians correct theology for over 50 years.

Now the "choice" your talking about. The only choice i can think your talking about would be the choice to believe, in your understanding, or, the choice to personally surrender my life to him and live a life inspired by such surrender in my understanding.

The simple answer is faith or a continually surrendered life first, the the grace deposit.


This will make better sense to you if you first read the rediscovering pisteuo thread, and the A,B,Cs, of faith and faithing thread first.

This thread is focused on the correct response to the call of the Father, "a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender." Not the believe and receive understanding.

Disclaimer: I will use the word gate, simply to highlght that part of the journey. I'm not suggesting there are actual gates.

The salvation process.

1) The world or the field.
A) Christ bought the entire field to get the treasure out of it. Jn. 3:16
B) Drawing by the Father starts here. Jn 6:44.
C) Were called out to be sainted here. Rom. 1:7.
D) people are called out from this field, and people are not called out from from this field. (A deep dive into the Greek is needed to show this.)
E) The beginning of the perfecting process starts here.
F) not sealed with the Spirit of Christ yet. Rom.8:9, not His yet.
G) no prayer or worship is acceptable here yet.
H) Repentance happens here. Turning from our way to the direction of the caller.
I) At this beginning stage, His Spirit, His word, and His promises are not ours yet.

2) Gate 1 or the altar.

A) first act of faithing, pisteuo, the surrendered life happens here.
B) A decision is made here, to make a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender. Genuine, not a perfect one.
C) Here, the act of pisteuo or faithing is tested and deemed Genuine by God.
D) No "saving faith " yet at the point.
E) prayer and worship not acceptable here yet. Rom. 8:9. Not His yet.
F) Alternative paths are formed here to go over or around the altar. (Believe and receive doctrine. ) to no avail.

3) Parable of the sower.
Mt. 13: 1-23. My. 4:1-20, Lk. 8:4-15.

A) here, Christ Himself is the seed.
B) the called out ones whos act of faithing has been accepted as Genuine are the soils.
C) this stage is a testing or proving ground.
D) the surrendered life is being tested here.
E) Decisions are made here that support the fact we really have turned our life and will over to God.
F) 3 of the 4 soils will fail here.
G) for 1 soil, this is the start of Christ being formed in their hearts by Faith. (pistis)
H) a grafting process begins here for that 1 soil.
I) no prayer and worship acceptable here yet.
J) God's paradoxical truths start to form here.
K) Faith begins to come by a hearing, a hearing by the word of God. Rom. 10:17.

4) Gate 2 or the accepted surrendered life.

A) Here, our surrendered life has been accepted.
B) the Spirit of Christ or the Grace deposit has been sealed into the faither, making them a temple of the Holy Spirit.
C) for the first time, He is in us and we are in Him.
D) a spiritual awakening happens here.
E) Dynamite power goes off here.
F) God's nature begins to flow.
G) the kind of giving that can't be imitated begins.
H) saving faith, a continually surrendered life has begun.
I) prayer and worship are acceptable now.
J) the mind of Christ and His presence start to take hold.
K) because of the mind of Christ, praying without ceasing starts here.
L) a called out one can only go through this gate one time.

5) The product.

A) here, God is producing "faithers" that are responding with saving faith.
B) here, a precondition has been met.
C) here a continual state of faithing will consume us.
D) here, we are either being saved or perishing. Choosing to faithe towards Him or away from Him.
E) this is not a destination.
F) we are continuously being perfected here, our faith, our surrendered life.
G) we should expect God's nature and His word to continually flow through us.
H) here, we are His and He is ours. We are in a state where it's harder to get out of His will, than it is to stay in it.
I)here, Rom. 7: 14-21 is in effect. We have been separated from our sinful nature's, by Grace through Faith.

This has been a testimony of sorts to the experience i had and have been having. It's not my intention to step on toes here, only to fulfill what I understand is the truth. This isn't about me, it's about us. I hope you see Him in this process.

 

[Jordon]

First let's look at what you mean by enabling or irresistible grace. I assume this is Sproul's lingo for the Holy spirit being put inside a faither, or what you would call a believer. My instructor would call that the "grace deposit" which is in line with what the greek texts tell us. He owned the largest collection of biblical manuscripts in private hands behind the Vatican, and that s what he taught from. He was the one who taught other theologians correct theology for over 50 years.

Now the "choice" your talking about. The only choice i can think your talking about would be the choice to believe, in your understanding, or, the choice to personally surrender my life to him and live a life inspired by such surrender in my understanding.

The simple answer is faith or a continually surrendered life first, the the grace deposit.


This will make better sense to you if you first read the rediscovering pisteuo thread, and the A,B,Cs, of faith and faithing thread first.

This thread is focused on the correct response to the call of the Father, "a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender." Not the believe and receive understanding.

Disclaimer: I will use the word gate, simply to highlght that part of the journey. I'm not suggesting there are actual gates.

The salvation process.

1) The world or the field.
A) Christ bought the entire field to get the treasure out of it. Jn. 3:16
B) Drawing by the Father starts here. Jn 6:44.
C) Were called out to be sainted here. Rom. 1:7.
D) people are called out from this field, and people are not called out from from this field. (A deep dive into the Greek is needed to show this.)
E) The beginning of the perfecting process starts here.
F) not sealed with the Spirit of Christ yet. Rom.8:9, not His yet.
G) no prayer or worship is acceptable here yet.
H) Repentance happens here. Turning from our way to the direction of the caller.
I) At this beginning stage, His Spirit, His word, and His promises are not ours yet.

2) Gate 1 or the altar.

A) first act of faithing, pisteuo, the surrendered life happens here.
B) A decision is made here, to make a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender. Genuine, not a perfect one.
C) Here, the act of pisteuo or faithing is tested and deemed Genuine by God.
D) No "saving faith " yet at the point.
E) prayer and worship not acceptable here yet. Rom. 8:9. Not His yet.
F) Alternative paths are formed here to go over or around the altar. (Believe and receive doctrine. ) to no avail.

3) Parable of the sower.
Mt. 13: 1-23. My. 4:1-20, Lk. 8:4-15.

A) here, Christ Himself is the seed.
B) the called out ones whos act of faithing has been accepted as Genuine are the soils.
C) this stage is a testing or proving ground.
D) the surrendered life is being tested here.
E) Decisions are made here that support the fact we really have turned our life and will over to God.
F) 3 of the 4 soils will fail here.
G) for 1 soil, this is the start of Christ being formed in their hearts by Faith. (pistis)
H) a grafting process begins here for that 1 soil.
I) no prayer and worship acceptable here yet.
J) God's paradoxical truths start to form here.
K) Faith begins to come by a hearing, a hearing by the word of God. Rom. 10:17.

4) Gate 2 or the accepted surrendered life.

A) Here, our surrendered life has been accepted.
B) the Spirit of Christ or the Grace deposit has been sealed into the faither, making them a temple of the Holy Spirit.
C) for the first time, He is in us and we are in Him.
D) a spiritual awakening happens here.
E) Dynamite power goes off here.
F) God's nature begins to flow.
G) the kind of giving that can't be imitated begins.
H) saving faith, a continually surrendered life has begun.
I) prayer and worship are acceptable now.
J) the mind of Christ and His presence start to take hold.
K) because of the mind of Christ, praying without ceasing starts here.
L) a called out one can only go through this gate one time.

5) The product.

A) here, God is producing "faithers" that are responding with saving faith.
B) here, a precondition has been met.
C) here a continual state of faithing will consume us.
D) here, we are either being saved or perishing. Choosing to faithe towards Him or away from Him.
E) this is not a destination.
F) we are continuously being perfected here, our faith, our surrendered life.
G) we should expect God's nature and His word to continually flow through us.
H) here, we are His and He is ours. We are in a state where it's harder to get out of His will, than it is to stay in it.
I)here, Rom. 7: 14-21 is in effect. We have been separated from our sinful nature's, by Grace through Faith.

This has been a testimony of sorts to the experience i had and have been having. It's not my intention to step on toes here, only to fulfill what I understand is the truth. This isn't about me, it's about us. I hope you see Him in this process.

The choice to believe by RC Sproul is centred more around us growing in God's mercy, over time is the reason why effectual grace takes a hold.

So belief is grown from growing in his mercy he plants in people. Hence how people are able to show kindness and be creative. Obey law etc.

Known as common grace given to all mankind.

The spiritual choice is then made only after that common grace becomes effective as in common grace becoming effectual grace. The spiritual choice to love his son spiritualy

Which he feals irresistible grace should be called effectual grace.


Maybe he has a problem with the pronunciation of tulip. Who knows or maybe he's just making us see it in a different light, I can't be sure.

But evidence so far suggest Augustine believe Gods mercy was extended to all mankind to.

 

[Watchman22]

The choice to believe by RC Sproul is centred more around us growing in God's mercy, over time is the reason why effectual grace takes a hold.

So belief is grown from growing in his mercy he plants in people. Hence how people are able to show kindness and be creative. Obey law etc.

Known as common grace given to all mankind.

The spiritual choice is then made only after that common grace becomes effective as in common grace becoming effectual grace. The spiritual choice to love his son spiritualy

Which he feals irresistible grace should be called effectual grace.


Maybe he has a problem with the pronunciation of tulip. Who knows or maybe he's just making us see it in a different light, I can't be sure.

But evidence so far suggest Augustine believe Gods mercy was extended to all mankind to.

I respect your take on that, but, the Greek is specific concerning the ones called out by the Father. They are a small group that are called out from among a larger group, that are not called.

Now does that mean only those who are called out by the Father can be saved? I'm dropping a bomb here, we have to consider where Jesus responds to the centurion, " you and your household. "

Take it for what it's worth to you.

 

[Jordon]

I respect your take on that, but, the Greek is specific concerning the ones called out by the Father. They are a small group that are called out from among a larger group, that are not called.

Now does that mean only those who are called out by the Father can be saved? I'm dropping a bomb here, we have to consider where Jesus responds to the centurion, " you and your household. "

Take it for what it's worth to you.

well it depends on the ones who are not called out of larger group have been given up on completely I guess is another way to look at it.

Biblical accounts suggest some progress quicker

 

[Watchman22]

well it depends on the ones who are not called out of larger group have been given up on completely I guess is another way to look at it.

Biblical accounts suggest some progress quicker

I think that the truth on Gods ways are difficult to swallow. And the truth I'm referring to is that God wants some, and doesn't want others. Now does that mean those others can't be saved, no , they can be saved if they fulfill faith correctly, if they accidentally fulfill faith, He will save them. Thats why Jesus spoke in parables, so some could understand, and others couldn't, to keep them out.

The God humanity has created, the beggar sitting on the streetcorner, hat in hand, saying, will you please accept me, isn't accurate. God spends more time keeping the ones He doesn't want out, than begging for the others to come in.

And that's not my opinion, that's a gifted teachers teaching.

 

[Jordon]

I think that the truth on Gods ways are difficult to swallow. And the truth I'm referring to is that God wants some, and doesn't want others. Now does that mean those others can't be saved, no , they can be saved if they fulfill faith correctly, if they accidentally fulfill faith, He will save them. Thats why Jesus spoke in parables, so some could understand, and others couldn't, to keep them out.

The God humanity has created, the beggar sitting on the streetcorner, hat in hand, saying, will you please accept me, isn't accurate. God spends more time keeping the ones He doesn't want out, than begging for the others to come in.

And that's not my opinion, that's a gifted teachers teaching.

I'm not so sure it's that difficult to understand certain aspects, but granted there are aspects we don't.

But i wonder when a person is saved the work is done, I would believe it's all down hill from there for God with such people.

However you could say that it was no work at all for God, as he's ordained the means to which we can all be saved before we where even born.

So then I think his eternal state of being knows all and is so overwhelming and abundant in grace, that what his will does, is just a drop in the ocean, to how we perceive tasks, for us life is complicated when where seperated but made easy when walking with him and we go to him for guidance, which is a means already provided.

 

[Watchman22]

I'm not so sure it's that difficult to understand certain aspects, but granted there are aspects we don't.

But i wonder when a person is saved the work is done, I would believe it's all down hill from there for God with such people.

However you could say that it was no work at all for God, as he's ordained the means to which we can all be saved before we where even born.

So then I think his eternal state of being knows all and is so overwhelming and abundant in grace, that what his will does, is just a drop in the ocean, to how we perceive tasks, for us life is complicated when where seperated but made easy when walking with him and we go to him for guidance, which is a means already provided.

Thats why true faith, true faithing, true pisteuo, a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender (Vines) is so perfect and beautiful. After we are genuinely living a life of continuous surrender, it puts all the accountability on Him. Our lives become none of our business anymore, our life is His business now.

Our business is simply to continue in faith, continue to surrender our lives to Him and live a life inspired by such surrender.

Understanding God, His Son, His word, the process, becomes a gift from Him as result of the relationship.

 

[Jordon]

Thats why true faith, true faithing, true pisteuo, a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender (Vines) is so perfect and beautiful. After we are genuinely living a life of continuous surrender, it puts all the accountability on Him. Our lives become none of our business anymore, our life is His business now.

Our business is simply to continue in faith, continue to surrender our lives to Him and live a life inspired by such surrender.

Understanding God, His Son, His word, the process, becomes a gift from Him as result of the relationship.

ok I believe a person can always be seeking God internally, but should that mean continuously surrendering as thats more linked catholicism,

 

[Watchman22]

ok I believe a person can always be seeking God internally, but should that mean continuously surrendering as thats more linked catholicism,

No it's the definition of the verb form of faith in the Vines Greek dictionary.

A personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender. If you don't respond to the call of the Father with this surrender life every day, the Holy spirit can never abide in you.

May He be with you in your decision.

 

[Jordon]

No it's the definition of the verb form of faith in the Vines Greek dictionary.

A personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender. If you don't respond to the call of the Father with this surrender life every day, the Holy spirit can never abide in you.

May He be with you in your decision.

that's Catholicism again, meaning you have to keep being re justified by daily surrender, and if your not then you can't receive more justice from God. Justice as in more justification also.

They also teach you can lose your justification, but then you can regain it. But you can't be fully justified, meaning you can never have full assurance until you die, and even when you die you may need further justification.

May I ask do you think the fruits of a spirit can't do there daily will, meaning can they not speak to you internally, meaning given you peace and keep you in sound mind ?

 

[Watchman22]

that's Catholicism again, meaning you have to keep being re justified by daily surrender, and if your not then you can't receive more justice from God. Justice as in more justification also.

They also teach you can lose your justification, but then you can regain it. But you can't be fully justified, meaning you can never have full assurance until you die, and even when you die you may need further justification.

May I ask do you think the fruits of a spirit can't do there daily will, meaning can they not speak to you internally, meaning given you peace and keep you in sound mind ?

Just so you know, if you decide to start a life of faith, personally surrendering your life to Him and live a life inspired by such surrender, if you expect anything in return, even the Holy spirit, it will avail nothing.

 

[Jordon]

Just so you know, if you decide to start a life of faith, personally surrendering your life to Him and live a life inspired by such surrender, if you expect anything in return, even the Holy spirit, it will avail nothing.

Daily surrender in Catholicism is the conscious, daily act of abandoning one's own will, anxieties, and desires to God, trusting in His divine providence. It involves "dying to self," often practiced through prayer, such as the Surrender Novena, and accepting daily struggles as opportunities to conform to God's will.
Key Aspects of Daily Surrender:

• The Surrender Novena: A popular, powerful prayer where one repeats, "O Jesus, I surrender myself to you, take care of everything!" ten times, entrusting all worries to Him.
• Active Trust: Moving from "my will be done" to "thy will be done" by placing anxiety at the foot of the Cross, often alongside the Blessed Mother.
• Practical Application: It means letting go of the need for control during daily frustrations (e.g., annoyances, work stress) and accepting both joys and calamities as part of God's plan.
• Internal Disposition: It is a daily, or even moment-by-moment, interior action of offering one's mind, heart, and body to God for His glory.

Common Practices:

• Morning Offering: Beginning the day by surrendering all actions, prayers, and sufferings to God.
• The "Fiat": Saying "yes" to God's will, similar to Mary, even in difficult circumstances.
• Praying the Surrender Novena: A 9-day (or continuous) prayer for letting go of anxiety, written by Servant of God Fr. Dolindo Ruotolo.
• Accepting Suffering: Offering up personal, physical, or emotional pain to God rather than complaining.

 

[Watchman22]

Daily surrender in Catholicism is the conscious, daily act of abandoning one's own will, anxieties, and desires to God, trusting in His divine providence. It involves "dying to self," often practiced through prayer, such as the Surrender Novena, and accepting daily struggles as opportunities to conform to God's will.
Key Aspects of Daily Surrender:

• The Surrender Novena: A popular, powerful prayer where one repeats, "O Jesus, I surrender myself to you, take care of everything!" ten times, entrusting all worries to Him.
• Active Trust: Moving from "my will be done" to "thy will be done" by placing anxiety at the foot of the Cross, often alongside the Blessed Mother.
• Practical Application: It means letting go of the need for control during daily frustrations (e.g., annoyances, work stress) and accepting both joys and calamities as part of God's plan.
• Internal Disposition: It is a daily, or even moment-by-moment, interior action of offering one's mind, heart, and body to God for His glory.

Common Practices:

• Morning Offering: Beginning the day by surrendering all actions, prayers, and sufferings to God.
• The "Fiat": Saying "yes" to God's will, similar to Mary, even in difficult circumstances.
• Praying the Surrender Novena: A 9-day (or continuous) prayer for letting go of anxiety, written by Servant of God Fr. Dolindo Ruotolo.
• Accepting Suffering: Offering up personal, physical, or emotional pain to God rather than complaining.

There's no unhappy face on this entire thread Jordan.

 

[NightTwister]

Saving faith.... know you are a sinner, and led by conviction from Jesus as God.. believe on Jesus Christ as risen Saviour, God.

Thats not calvinism..and not really armenianism, seeing it is eternally secure.

Both "Calvinists" and "Armenians" believe in saving faith, knowing they are a sinner, and being led by conviction from Jesus as God, believing on Jesus Christ as risen Savior, God. So do most Christians that don't find themselves in either camp. The only ones who don't are those who believe following laws will save them.

 

[Jordon]

There's no unhappy face on this entire thread Jordan.

post 5